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[Proposal] Add Normal diff guideline regarding very short sliders

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13
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
There is the following guideline for Easy diffs:

RC wrote:

Avoid using sliders shorter than 1/2 of a beat. These are too fast to be comprehended by new players.


I think this guideline should also be added for Normal diffs, or at least for Normals as the lowest diff of a mapset, because otherwise mappers are allowed to use 1/4 sliders which is not acceptable unless the BPM is like 120 or lower. You could argue that the guideline saying "Note density should consist of mostly 1/1, 2/1, or slower rhythms." already covers it but more clarification would be helpful, especially since I noticed some recent Normal diffs getting ranked with 1/4 sliders:
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1035667#osu/2165823 00:56:764 (1,2) -
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1009328#osu/2226700 01:05:310 (2) - etc.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
i would argue that those uses are actually decent since they are isolated and would not cause reading issues or even misses or combo breaks if played like circles though. kicksliders are a really common technique in hards so i dont see that introducing basic versions in normals is bad
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
I don't think they'd cause reading issues, but newer players (from what I can tell) don't usually try to play these like circles either. these aren't very similar to the concept of kicksliders, imo

a more common mistake from beginners is missing a slider head but still getting the 50 from catching some of the body, and I feel like that would be pretty confusing to look at with such a short slider if you got no audio or visual feedback from the head. of course this can't be said about all newer players though, I may have just seen a bad sample

I think adding this guideline is okay. a truly good use of a high-snapped slider in Normal (which is rare, right?) can ignore this due to it being a guideline
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
Like This Comment if more people should reply here



Edit: Like like like like likel ike
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

Nao Tomori wrote:

i would argue that those uses are actually decent since they are isolated and would not cause reading issues or even misses or combo breaks if played like circles though. kicksliders are a really common technique in hards so i dont see that introducing basic versions in normals is bad


It seems illogical to me to introduce both 1/2 sliders (and generally 1/2 rhythm) and 1/4 sliders in Normals. As you said, they're common in Hards, which makes sense because Hards are meant to introduce basic 1/4 rhythm, but not Normals. So unless the BPM is really low (like 120 or slower) I don't see any reason to use kicksliders when they can be simplified to circles or 1/2 sliders depending on the song's rhythm.

Plus, as clayton mentioned, decent usages would be allowed to break the guideline.
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
I'd think this is already covered in the existing normal guideline that

Note density should consist of mostly 1/1, occasional 1/2, or slower rhythms.

and adding another rule specifically for sliders but otherwise saying the same thing is a bit redundant? If a 1/4 slider in a normal is too fast or difficult for the target audience and causing issues, it would really already be breaking existing guidelines as 1/4 is faster than the 1/2 or 1/1 specified for normal difficulty rhythms.
Seto Kousuke
osu! Alumni
610 posts
Joined June 2013
Seto Kousuke
Basically what Noffy said, current wording already covers it properly. I'd even say currently this is handled better than you'd think as well, for example, from the 2 maps you used as an example, SHIKI - Jade Star [Normal] is not even really a normal diff, it's 152bpm with 1.3xds (not overlapped 1/2s) and reasonably bigger chains than what you currently see (this is even reflected mathematically on SR), so that normal diff is actually an Advanced, which for such guidelines of Advanceds it's totally acceptable to have those 1/4 reverse arrows

On Ikimonogakari - Netsujou no Spectrum (TV Size), I personally think the 1/4 is unecessary, single notes would be much better and have same effect. If anything the BNs could've been more efficient there, but it's not really that much of a problem since they're quite isolated and can be played as single notes regardless~

I don't think the addition of another guideline is necessary neither something too worrisome since on majority of maps people avoid doing that because it's pretty much a consensus that it's not a good idea to do so
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna
it's common sense to not really allow multiple gaps between notes that close to each other in the timeline so those will always be isolated cases that will happen once in a while that can be played as single notes as seto said, i am not a fan of adding more specific guidelines or rules about snaps because it's always situational, if you notice something weird just report it
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
I think even one uncaught case is enough reason to consider something not common sense. I agree with the point about redundancy, but how will you make sure that these kinds of things don't get to Ranked in the future?
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
While I agree that the guideline about mainly using 1/1 and 1/2 rhythms already covers this theoretically, it actually refers to the gaps between objects and not to the duration of sliders (or at least that's the intention behind it) and many people including BNs tend to ignore it as the BPM lowers, but 150-160 BPM is the middle ground and not that low. Also, why does the guideline about short sliders exist for Easy diffs then? That seems pretty inconsistent to me.
Besides, the 2 maps I mentioned are only examples. There are definitely other maps with similar issues that I don't remember and it could happen again in the future.
Btw I agree that the Normal on Jade Star is more like an Advanced which is an even bigger issue because the spread is completely unbalanced, but I guess that's a different story.
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 2 times in total.
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna
@clayton what i mentioned about common sense is when you have an object in the middle of a pattern making things more confusing which is obviously an issue and would get dq'd for so your comment doesn't apply whatsoever


"...it actually refers to the gaps between objects and not to the duration of sliders"

Yes, as Seto mentioned, it can happen when the slider plays like a circle and doesn't affect the gameplay that much. If you clearly have a 1/4 sound that you don't want to skip and it doesn't ruin the gameplay, it shoulnd't be extremely bad despite having the option to just not follow it at all
Last edited by Trynna , edited 1 time in total.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
I don't agree that the gameplay is the same for 1/4 sliders and circles. Sure, if they are isolated it's not as much of an issue but simplification is a must in every Normal diff anyway, so I don't see the need to use 1/4 rhythm when it can be simplified, just like many other sounds in the song.

Exceptional cases would be allowed to break the guideline anyway, so that is not a reason for not implementing it.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
seeing as all replies here disagree with the proposal, im going to archive it

the maps with issues in op aren't problematic imo, though Normals that use 1/4 sliders more frequently would be (which i assume is what this guideline is mostly about preventing). Normals that do this... don't really exist though, so i dont think adding the guideline would have any effect

if maps like that do get ranked, feel free to bring them up in a new thread and we'll talk about how to deal with them when relevant
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