Did you completely miss my last post? When done right (ie. NOT the situation you're presenting here), it takes MORE work than a freestyle map.
Plus, why work more for inferior results?

theowest wrote:

OzzyOzrock wrote:

I do it because it looks nice (most times). Not to be lazy or whatever you're trying to say.

It's still lazy! Because it would have taken more time to map than pressing a few keys! I'm not saying it wouldn't look or play awesome.

If you haven't mapped a map that's at least 30% symmetrical then you have no right to say if it takes more or less time. Symmetry is just like another mapping technique, if you don't take enough time to design it, your map will suck.

As an experienced symmetric mapper, I can spend 30mins mapping 10 seconds of a song because it's not simply copy+pasting. The patterns need to flow with each other AND you must use the right rhythms, avoiding overlaps it's an extra~ (e.g mapping a song that includes "weird and constantly changing rhythms" using "freestyle" can takes less time than mapping it with symmetry)

theowest wrote:

OzzyOzrock wrote:

I do it because it looks nice (most times). Not to be lazy or whatever you're trying to say.

It's still lazy! Because it would have taken more time to map than pressing a few keys! I'm not saying it wouldn't look or play awesome.

Don't compare efficiency to laziness.

In very few cases, symmetry is the best way to fit the music, and i have to say 80% or more of the symmetric map could fit most of the songs with the same BPM, that means the mapper is being lazy. I can understand symmetry as a style, but this is a music game not a painting game. If Copy&Paste is using in this way it's probably wrong...

If you copy anything more than 20s, it's just lazy and don't need to say more words. Cut down the mp3 is a better choice for the lazy mapper compared to continue to map it.

mm201 wrote:

NatsumeRin wrote:

but this is a music game not a painting game.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57061

what's your point? that feature doesn't hurt anything in the music part.

NatsumeRin wrote:

i'm one of the "Art More Mappers', a quite strong one among them.

If you suddenly have a problem with pretty symmetry maps, kindly gtfo.

mm201 wrote:

NatsumeRin wrote:

i'm one of the "Art More Mappers', a quite strong one among them.

If you suddenly have a problem with pretty symmetry maps, kindly gtfo.

Art is to express some inner things, not only draw a picture and show people how beautiful it is. especially when just draw beautiful things is pretty easy to do in osu, yeah, copy&paste, what we're discussing for.

Why should I make less attractive maps to satisfy someone's erroneous notion of the amount of effort involved?
It takes me around a month to complete a map. I could make a freestyle map with no ctrl+V in a matter of hours.

mm201 wrote:

Why should I make less attractive maps to satisfy someone's erroneous notion of the amount of effort involved?

Just different thoughts, no errors or truth here, it's silly to compare between the styles. I gave my opinion from my position, and you... hey. I don't want to force you, don't force me either.

mm201 wrote:

It takes me around a month to complete a map. I could make a freestyle map with no ctrl+V in a matter of hours.

I wonder how, I wonder why. And as a freestyle mapper it usually takes 3 whole days for me to finish the highest diff, 1 day for other diffs. I'm a fast mapper, oh yeah.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If you copy anything more than 20s, it's just lazy and don't need to say more words. Cut down the mp3 is a better choice for the lazy mapper compared to continue to map it.

It's still probably true, let's get on-topic, lol.

NatsumeRin wrote:

mm201 wrote:

It takes me around a month to complete a map. I could make a freestyle map with no ctrl+V in a matter of hours.

I wonder how, I wonder why. And as a freestyle mapper it usually takes 3 whole days for me to finish the highest diff, 1 day for other diffs. I'm a fast mapper, oh yeah.

Just felt the need to do that.

Also I am all for symmetry, but copypasting and symmetry are two different matters. Everyone knows that. Symmetry has nothing to do with laziness, but using the same patterns for the same part of the music is laziness.

Please go on.

NatsumeRin wrote:

mm201 wrote:

It takes me around a month to complete a map. I could make a freestyle map with no ctrl+V in a matter of hours.

I wonder how, I wonder why. And as a freestyle mapper it usually takes 3 whole days for me to finish the highest diff, 1 day for other diffs. I'm a fast mapper, oh yeah.

Not to be harsh or anything but making a 3 control points slider surely takes less time than creating a perfect curve.

Please DON'T compare lazycopy-pasting with "Symmetric mapping" & "Creating appealing patterns"

I think Copypasting is fine just once per map, if the map is around 2-3 minutes, like repeating a chorus flipped horizontally or vertically for example. It was very common on EBA and the like. If the copypasted section is good, I say why not when said section really isn't appealing for mapping.

However copying half the map and flipping it over to get it done faster is just no. Even on easier difficulties.

When it comes to copypasting sliders to flip them around or reverse them, I am 100% fine with this as I myself use it a lot.

... what could a "perfect curve" do with the music. not to be harsh but it's not the place to put so much efforts imo. MUSIC is always at the first place.

btw I make sliders using 4 or 5 points lol.

Why do 3d games have such good graphics? Why do more expensive video cards come out every year? Why are iPods glossy chrome?

People like pretty things.

...and is making an invisible skin or camouflage hitcircle colours a good place to spend effort?

NatsumeRin wrote:

... what could a "perfect curve" do with the music. not to be harsh but it's not the place to put so much efforts imo. MUSIC is always at the first place.

btw I make sliders using 4 or 5 points lol.

You were talking about "time and effort" so don't try to involve other stuff to prove your point.


Mappers that actually care about all the aspects of their maps can easily design perfect & appealing sliders that will follow perfectly the music and all the existing rhythms in the songs, take Krisom as example.

It's about making the map as best as you can, that includes design and rhythm. If some mappers can only satisfy the "rhythm" part then they should work harder on the design part to reach the best result.

EDIT: This is getting off-topic *leaves*

NatsumeRin wrote:

... what could a "perfect curve" do with the music. not to be harsh but it's not the place to put so much efforts imo. MUSIC is always at the first place.

In that case, why make good skins for maps? As with backgrounds, storyboards, etc.

On a side note, I don't know how anyone relates symmetry and copypastries other than that they often appear together, which if anything 'proves' that there could be more thought involved than people apparently think.

But I'm not asking you to map Around the World with 2 combos and a ctrl+c, why not? Because that would be silly, and nobody would enjoy that. I just believe that following the song is very important, and some form of familiarity within itself is, in my opinion, important in a song. Then again, I haven't had proper sleep for 2 days.

Everything that is tightly related to the music (and its theme) should be treated seriously. Skin is one of those parts for sure, also BG and combo colors. If your sliders or notes placements could fit the song it's perfect, however i find many of them are unrankable now (tobebuta sliders, hold sliders, etc.), troll. And if you just say the shape or structure is great but ignored the music itself, it's just wrong and nothing to discuss about. (That's why i say, if your map could fit most of the songs with same BPM, it sucks.)

Flow vs Structure topic? let's start one if needed. Krisom is really awesome at structure, but not as great with flows, why? Because sometimes he has to keep the shape in some way, that reduces the possibility for sure.

I'm baffled at how you can think colours and background have more to do with the music than shaping and layout.

Edit: And I very much like Krisom's flow. The kris-krossiness plays awesome. Drifting around in circles gets dull after a while. Mixing up different types of flow instead of using the same ones over and over again is important. The more daring and exciting your flow, the better.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Krisom is really awesome at structure, but not as great with flows, why? Because sometimes he has to keep the shape in some way, that reduces the possibility for sure.

I try to balance those you know :'(


(also I disagree a lot, depending on what map of mine are you playing)

Krisom wrote:

NatsumeRin wrote:

Krisom is really awesome at structure, but not as great with flows, why? Because sometimes he has to keep the shape in some way, that reduces the possibility for sure.

I try to balance those you know :'(


(also I disagree a lot, depending on what map of mine are you playing)

hahahaha dear, you're probably the best mapper when we talk about structure, but i think it's really hard to balance.

for myself i think flow is more important lol

10 bucks that I can do an amazing flow + structure map. I just need the right song I KNOW ;_;!

also thanks >w<

Just throwing my 2 cents off the topic, but I promise that's the last time I do so.

Personally, when it comes to "flow" as we describe it, Krisom IS one of the best mappers around. What do you need to have a good flow? Patterns. I think we can all agree on that. There's also what makes the map interesting, jumps, features and whatnot. But most importantly something that you need in order to have a good flow is a good readability, being able to sightread the map from scratch. And this is where many mappers fail, because for some reason they overlap wayyyyyy too much their patterns, making them unreadable at first sight and not fun at all to play. I've for now noticed only 2 mappers who overlap a lot and keep good readability on their maps, Shinxyn and Crazy Jay.

But I digress. When it comes to flow, I think the main element is as I stated patterns (what else would it be, of course). Intuitive jumps, called for streams, clever spacing modifications (not always jumps though) are pretty much determinating the flow of the map. The AR is also quite important, but we're all different, and can't read at same speeds, so it's no use to go further on that. You also need originality when mapping. It's become a standard that I see star formations on each and every new map. It's seriously getting old.

So to get back on-topic, copy-pasting does not kill flow. Unless it's done wrong. Mirroring a single pattern is not going to make a map dull. Freestyle maps do have flow when done right, as well as more "authentic" maps if I dare say so.

tl;dr, patterns are all that matters, overlapping sucks when done badly, star formations are overused, copypasting is unrelated to flow (when done right).

And I haven't checked the whole thread, but I hope nobody said that the hardest maps are the best because they provide the most challenge and that "challenge and fun are proportional" cause I get that a lot and that just makes me cringe.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33743

I made this as an experiment in how fast I could possibly make a map if I never touched Ctrl+V or checked structure.
I'd rather go back to being a "lazy mapper" and spend months on everything, honestly.

Just popping in to say that as a mapper i am almost constantly using copy past in some form or another - i use 3-point quickly-constructed near-perfect sliders (Really, if you knew how to do them, you can create near-pixel-perfect symettrical curve sliders in under two or three seconds) and copy-paste them rather often and either rotate, flip, or scale them as needed in patterns i come up with. It's very efficient, very fast, and removes all need for "making sure these two sliders are the same". Same with wave sliders - if i ever see myself using more than one at once, you can bet their ass they will be copypasted unless the music REALLY calls for otherwise.


Copy-pasting entire sections, however, i have different views on. I for one am a very good advocate of copy+pasting patterns and even certain sections on easies and normals, but only if the sections in question are in fact the same, as it leads to the map being slightly more intuitive and easier for a new player to play, even if you take a few liberties with the spacing or difficulty styling. I don't find it as acceptable on hards or insanes, but it can be acceptable if you do it cleverly (reversing patterns, sliders, and other things such as what i did in kanon-kanon or in gowww's final answer).


The main point I can say is that if the song has some repeated sections, it's fine to copy and paste to keep consistency in a map as long as you don't be a lazy bastard and copy-paste absolutely everything. The duration of these sections vary, however, and if the section is decidedly long (i.e. an entyire chorus of more than 20-30s or so) you'd better start being clever with your flipping and switching or it just comes out lazy, no matter how good your "flow" is.


tl;dr copypaste is ok if you do it right (doing it right exerts enough "effort" for it to be acceptable), but if you do it wrong you just show how incompeotent you are.

mm201 wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33743

I made this as an experiment in how fast I could possibly make a map if I never touched Ctrl+V or checked structure.
I'd rather go back to being a "lazy mapper" and spend months on everything, honestly.

I made it as an experiment in how fast I could possibly make a structure of a map if i never thought about music.
I'd rather go back to check the flows and spend months to make my map fits music lol. It took me 20mins to do the structure until the first break, would be faster to do the other parts. hahahahahah

Edit: btw i didn't touch ctrl+V either!

Glad to see we're all bonding.
(lololololol)

Mapping a song without listening to it sounds fun.

NatsumeRin wrote:

mm201 wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33743

I made this as an experiment in how fast I could possibly make a map if I never touched Ctrl+V or checked structure.
I'd rather go back to being a "lazy mapper" and spend months on everything, honestly.

I made it as an experiment in how fast I could possibly make a structure of a map if i never thought about music.
I'd rather go back to check the flows and spend months to make my map fits music lol. It took me 20mins to do the structure until the first break, would be faster to do the other parts. hahahahahah

Edit: btw i didn't touch ctrl+V either!

Mapping without listening to the music? Sounds strange. Linky? Some of those vuvuzela maps were pretty cool.

Edit: nvm got it

It simply proves you could spend little time to do bad flow maps, i could spend little time to do bad structure maps (in fact not so bad imo!). We don't need to force each other, i never said that you're just ignoring the music to map, so on the other hand, don't try to force flow mappers too.

You guys do know that you can make a well structured map that also "flows" well.
IMO those two can co-exist happily.
You guys need not argue about it. They are not mutually exclusive.

People will always argue about objectivity and subjectivity, especially in something as fraught with personality as mapping.

Who force what now?

You called structure mappers lazy. I provided a counter-example.
You can provide all the counter-counter-examples you want, but there's nothing for you to refute since I never made any claims.
I'm trying to educate you that there are other ways besides your own, and these ways aren't necessarily inferior.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If you copy anything more than 20s, it's just lazy and don't need to say more words. Cut down the mp3 is a better choice for the lazy mapper compared to continue to map it.

If it's how structure mappder do their work, it could be called lazy imo.

mm201 wrote:

I'm trying to educate you that there are other ways besides your own, and these ways aren't necessarily inferior.

I find it really strange when most of the MAT/BAT team are "structure mappers", and they're trying to reduce the possibility of mapping. (as i said, tobebuta slider, now tick rate 0.5, other "rules", etc.) I don't think it's a nice way to solve it, really.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If you copy anything more than 20s, it's just lazy and don't need to say more words. Cut down the mp3 is a better choice for the lazy mapper compared to continue to map it.

If it's how structure mappder do their work, it could be called lazy imo.

Apparently, you're just making assumptions about stuff, which leads me to the conclusion that you don't know how "structure mappers" (If that's the way you call them) work, therefore you can't judge them.

Also, as I've already said, this thread was not created to discuss "structure or flow", use your own thread to discuss such things.

A structured mapper can be lazy. A freestyle mapper can be lazy. (In the map I made for you, I freestyled and was extremely lazy--much lazier than any normal mapper would be.)
Claiming they all are is preposterous.

As for the MAT being structured mappers, blame peppy. He promotes people he likes and is a tyrannical evil dictator. They promote people they like and then everyone is of a like mind. If you don't like this, start an osu! liberation force. But do it somewhere else.

re: NewRules: Rules are all about making careful decisions to balance the interests of the mappers with the players, all while retaining some essence of professionalism and creating a game that's inviting to new players. It's always a matter of balance. Balance being a concept you outright rejected in the combo colours thread so you wouldn't understand.

I don't usually copy paste entire sections of a beatmap, but I guess I could try to make it work well. I do enjoy copy paste like this, though:

NatsumeRin wrote:

I find it really strange when most of the MAT/BAT team are "structure mappers", and they're trying to reduce the possibility of mapping. (as i said, tobebuta slider, now tick rate 0.5, other "rules", etc.) I don't think it's a nice way to solve it, really.

Also where did this come from?

NatsumeRin:
What you've been saying is that mappers who copy-paste "too much" are lazy.
What mm201 has just been saying is that those who copy-paste are not necessarily lazy.

You've also been complaining that structure (which is a "by-product" of copy-paste as you claim) ruins "flow", but you can have a well structured map that "flows" too. Yes I admit, a lot of times if you just copy-paste parts to make a map, it will not "flow" as well, but it is still possible to both satisfy "flow" and structure.

Trying to make a well structured map that flows well is the "hard" part when it comes to copy-pasting. Before you have to make a certain pattern, you have to make sure that it indeed flows well for all parts you copy-paste it into. This is why mm201 says that copy-pasting isn't essentially lazy, since you have to keep on adjusting parts, so they flow nicely in all parts you will use it.

Now let's get back to the topic on hand please.

@Gonzvlo: Sure it's of course an assumption, but mm201's "bad flow style map" is also an assumption, do you still think i don't know how structure mappers work or mm201 don't know how flow mappers work? It's just something we spend little time to satirize the other style.

@mm201: You could say that, it's true. If we talk about balance i think of an interesting thing... well, as i know Flow is the style enjoyed by most of the Asian players, Structure/Symmetry is the styles enjoyed by most of the Western (Europe or America) players. Now we may have 70% Asian players and 30% Asian MAT/BAT, as a Asian mapper, i have 35 ranked maps, 5 of them are ranked by a Asian BAT.

But whatever, that's another topic and as you said it's something of the system itself.

@NoHitter:Yes it's meaningless to discuss things not belong to this topic here, let this post be the end of it.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If you copy anything more than 20s, it's just lazy and don't need to say more words. Cut down the mp3 is a better choice for the lazy mapper compared to continue to map it.

This is the thing i posted here. Why the thread was brought to another topic, lol.

Disclaimer: Text wall ahead. I also fear I'll typo more than once, so please, forgive me in advance. Also, this whole text took me over 2 hours to type.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If it's how structure mappder do their work, it could be called lazy imo.

But that's unpolite and unappropiate. You don't know and you can't measure how much work someone puts on their maps depending on how many times they copy/paste their patterns.

In fact, I have some extra time so let me try to end this stupid discussion.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/15106
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23492
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/29206

All those maps were made by me. None is pattern-based, they're free style (Hardets diffs). The first one has almost no effort put in it because it was freestyle and it was one of my first maps, while the second one took me around a week to finish (just the Insane diff, and that's a lot for me) because I had to ask myself much more than one time "how can I make this play more awesome than what I had in mind 2 seconds ago?!", and the third took me around 2 days to finish the hardest diff, average kind of effort, in fact I'd say it didn't "consume" as much imagination as Tequila, it was fairly easy.

And now:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/17624
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/20013
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23020

All those maps were made by me. They're all pattern based, close to 100% pattern/symmetry style. (Hardest diffs). The first one took me less than a day to finish the hardest diff and it's incredibly lazy: the fun part? Everyone loves it (dunno why, I'm guessing it's the song...). The second one took me a VERY long while to finish, around 4 days the hardest diff, and trust me coming with the idea of the double loop was NOT easy, much less designing it. The third one took me a normal ammount of time to finish, around 2 or 3 days to finish the hardest diff, but it was one of the most "imagination consuming" maps I've ever mapped: making the patterns fit the distancesnap is not an easy task boys.



Ok, here we have 6 maps. They're all made by the same person, and that person is me. Taking that in mind, I think I can pretty much measure correctly how much effort it took me to finish those diffs, does that sound reasonable to everyone?
Now, retunring to the "And that could be called lazy imo" let's see what we can get out of these maps I've put as an example:

Lazyness depends on the style?
I wouldn't say so. 2 maps were lazy from that bunch of above. 1 of them is Free-Style and the other one is Pattern-Style. The ammount of one with tons of effort and regular effort are also even between styles.

Lazyness depends on the mapper's style?
All the maps presented above are from the same mapper. While I do was trying to find "my style" on some of those, I've always had pretty much clear on my mind how I want for my maps to be, so I'm discarding this option again.

Lazyness depends on the mapper?
Again, all the maps presented avobe are from the same mapper. If I do can say something, I wouldn't say lazyness is the important factor that varies from mapper to mapper, that factor would be experience. This explains why both you and mm make awesome maps with different styles, you two just have enought experience to do so, and shine on your own styles.

Lazyness depends on the language or style of the mapped song?
I have very lazy maps in english, and very lazy maps in japanese. I also have very time-consuming maps in english and japanese, not to mention spanish. I'd discard this option if I were you. If you're reading this and you downvote every single english/japanese/<insertlanguagehere> map just because you think that mapping certain language makes the map bad or lazy, please stop doing so. If, on the other side, you downvote on english/japanese/<inserlanguagehere> just because of the song, I'm afraid that I must tell you than that's not what the rating system is for, if you dislike a song, you're better off by not giving it more plays than downvoting.

Lazyness depends on the map?
OF COURSE IT DOES. Lazyness doesn't depends on any of the stuff mentioned above, and it's silly to think otherwise. People who think free-style is lazy are as retarded as people who think pattern-style is lazy. Seriously, the only thing that really makes the effort change in each map is the effort itself! There's not any hidden/strange equation that will make you discover what is the "X" factor that makes a map be lazy, because lazyness it's there just because it is.

Sometimes someone just doesn't feels like putting too much effort into their maps, do you think that will change the output of the style the map has? I've felt lazy before and done horrible free-styles I never uploaded, I've done the same with pattern-style maps. I felt lazy but it didn't change my vision of how the map needed to be mapped and what style should I have aimed for, and that's because people get a vague idea of the map before they start mapping, to jump into mapping a song wihout thinking of the rhythms is pretty much unthinkeable, how could anyone want to map smoething that he has not felt the rhythm of?


What do we get out of all this text? Style doesn't affects lazyness, and lazyness doesn't affects style.
That's a very sad misconception that has caused a very deep and clear division on the styles and the whole community of osu!. And you know what? It's sad, and probably none of you will change and you all will keep discussing these silly pointless stuff that just has to do with taste.
It's the same when people go into the internet and they go "ROCK SUCKS, GO POP!" "NO, POP SUCKS, U GAY, ROCK RULZ", you guys won't understand each other and that's ok because everyone is free to like whatever s/he likes and dislike whatever s/he dislikes, but making silly discussions about what style is better trying to sound as academic as possible is as hilarious and depressing as watching two people dicussing in complicated and extravagant words what music style is better. Heck, what color is the best fits this discussion even better. Please stop doing it, you are better off just by keep beatmapping, your time is better spent in that than in this.


Also, I'm not finished yet.

NatsumeRin wrote:

I find it really strange when most of the MAT/BAT team are "structure mappers", and they're trying to reduce the possibility of mapping. (as i said, tobebuta slider, now tick rate 0.5, other "rules", etc.) I don't think it's a nice way to solve it, really.

* "when most of the MAT/BAT team are "structure mappers""

BAT TEAM LIST.
MAT TEAM LIST.

Special thanks to Lizbeth, James2250, Derekku and Sakura Hana for helping with this list. Specially to Lizbeth <3

Even if you consider all the "varies from map to map", and rust and james as structured, there are crearly more free-style mappers in the BAT/MAT team.

* "and they're trying to reduce the possibility of mapping"

May I ask you how? The MAT and BAT team is here just for the sake of getting the maps ranked and some other work with the charts and, recently, the new rules. Do you really think there's a hidden conspiration in the MAT HQ or the BAT HQ to prevent for maps to get ranked?

Natsume: I Consider myself your friend. I dunno if you do the same, but as as friend I can tell you there is no such a thing in the forums. At least on the MAT HQ ones. (Go on ahead and kick me for "leaking information", lol) Also, I think I know you enough to guess that you have at least 1 close BAT friend. Garven? Go on ahead and ask him if there's any kind of secret conspiracy to prevent certain maps to get ranked. I dare you. I can pretty much guess the answer anyways, do you think that wouldn't have leaked at least to us the MATs if such thing really existed? This is a huge community, if that existed, don't you think it'd be pretty much public alredy?

Again, if you think I'm lying, go back to the spoiler and see the list. How many free-style mappers there are? 24. 24 free-style mappers. If there's any kind of conspiracy against free-style, dont you think they would have stopped it alredy?

I, personally, feel very hurt when I see people that thinks like this. Do you think it's very motivational to know that there are people that dislike you just because you're a MAT because they think you will get their maps unranked? Do you think I feel motivated to mod maps from other people to give them the most solid bubbles I can when I know this? Do you REALLY think I feel good when popping a bubble because I found something unrankeable? And how do you think I feel when said mapper treats me like shit because he thinks I'm trying to piss him off?

I'll leave these questions here for anyone to answer them. Now, if you're unsure of what to answer, here's a tip.

* "tobebuta slider, now tick rate 0.5, other "rules", etc."
Regarding this last point, I'd rather you no continue these particular discussions here, as they belong to other topics.

- What in the world is a tobebuta slider?
- Tick Rate 0.5: This is a desicion the same game creator has taken, and didn't consider any of our opinions in it. You're completely able to disagree or agree, but you can always skin out the sliderticks in your custom skin if you really dislike them that much.. Asides from that, I dobut you'll be able to convince the creator of other solution. Anyways, that is entierly offtopic of the original topic.
- Other rules: Again, offtopic. Read mm's answer for more information.


Final word (this is directed to everyone who reads this post):

If anyone is not having fun in a video game and you keep playing it, you are most likely a masochist and you might need to go to a psychologist.

If you're not having fun in osu! and you keep yourself constantly angry or sad because of the desicions some people says or because of what the other people thinks about your maps, or you just feel hatred towards other people, then leave. It's much better for you, I've left some other videogames and communities before that just made me feel bad and angry all day, and now I barely remember they and I'm mapping right here. The internet is wide enough, and we're not on a shortage of rhythm games anyways

If, on the other hand, you keep playing even because of that, go on ahead and ask yourself "why I'm I playing this game again?". You might be suprised to find some happyness in all this drama you've created your own mind, then you'll notice how little-to-no-meaning has to be fighting over some "rules on a rhythm videogame on the internet", and might find yourself mapping much more and having more fun than before.

Now, if you excuse me, I have to go to bed.

Where is your moeball now?

EDIT:
A reply on some of the things that Natsume PM'ed me. I didn't include them all, just the ones that I felt the most necesary (and that didn't leak important/personal info) Also, changed the list a bit.

Lazyness on mapper:
If what you said it's true, then what you say it's also wrong. read it again "However, if a mapper get used to lazy mapping, it's hard to get him back", that means that the mapper wasn't lazy at some point of his mapping career, and you're also implying that he can be brought back. With that being the case, what would be the factor that varies? The maps/ammount of lazy maps s/he has.
If you say "but there might be people who are lazy all of their mapping careers, doing flips badly on their maps", and then that's about experience, because doing flips also requires of a lot of thinking, and doing them badly means that they don't know what they're doing.

Lazyness depends on the mods the mapper get:
I do agree with that, but that sadly depends on the modder-side of the spectrum, and that is, right now, very weak on osu!. Check the mapper/MAT+BAT ratio, for example.
Being a modder nowdays is almost a taboo because a large portion of the mappers thinks that being a modder = making people change their styles on their maps, and that reduces the effort and quality of the maps all over the place. It's a very sad circle, isn't it?

Peace.

Krisom, I love you. SO MUCH.

Ya know, it's amazing that this died for seven months, and that a somewhat ignorant revival sparked all this discussion.

*nominates to 2011's Best Post*

That pretty much compiles all the conclusions that we can get from this discussion. I agree with almost everything that has been stated there, even if I'm more inclined to the structure side. Also, I want to say that I enjoy many free-styled maps a lot, being some of the most recent ones "Written In The Stars" and "Ouka Ryouran".

Oh, I hope this ends with the "MAT/BAT enforcing mapping styles" stuff, which has been proved completely fake.

Good job Krisom ('--')b

Krisom's post could be the end of the discussion. PMed Krisom about my opinion, if he feel it's needed he could post it out.

I don't agree with the list though.

Edit: oh i forget it, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9868 <<tobebuta sliders.

Edit2: the Final words are really true. I can easily get my maps ranked now, so think about why i'd like to argue for those features. They will make me feel better when mapping, and the increase of my map quility will make me happier.

It could be his ending hold note like for Aitai.

But maybe not.

I think these are the special sliders?

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9868

Anyway, that was beautiful. x3

I agree with Krisom. Just because one person prefers one particular style, that doesn't make the other style "lazy" IMO...

That said, I posted in here a while ago and I still say that if you do it right copy-paste can be quite nice (the first map I can think of is http://osu.ppy.sh/s/19684 -w-).

Though, I do have something to say about this:

May I ask you how? The MAT and BAT team is here just for the sake of getting the maps ranked and some other work with the charts and, recently, the new rules. Do you really think there's a hidden conspiration in the MAT HQ or the BAT HQ to prevent for maps to get ranked?

While I find it unlikely there is such a thing, I think many people think that way because of how hard it is and how long it takes to get a map ranked, especially if you're not well known...

Krisom wrote:

I, personally, feel very hurt when I see people that thinks like this. Do you think it's very motivational to know that there are people that dislike you just because you're a MAT because they think you will get their maps unranked? Do you think I feel motivated to mod maps from other people to give them the most solid bubbles I can when I know this? Do you REALLY think I feel good when popping a bubble because I found something unrankeable? And how do you think I feel when said mapper treats me like shit because he thinks I'm trying to piss him off?

My sentiments exactly

Great post Krisom

Starrodkirby86 wrote:

I think these are the special sliders?

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9868

Anyway, that was beautiful. x3

Aren't those all burai?

OzzyOzrock wrote:

Starrodkirby86 wrote:

I think these are the special sliders?

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9868

Anyway, that was beautiful. x3

Aren't those all burai?

Check out
00:21:945 (1) -
01:18:950 (1) -
03:46:189 (1) -

Perhaps it's a burai slider in generality, but the particular gimmick these special sliders had are definitely what makes them different from your average burai slider (e.g. this one).

pieguy1372 wrote:

May I ask you how? The MAT and BAT team is here just for the sake of getting the maps ranked and some other work with the charts and, recently, the new rules. Do you really think there's a hidden conspiration in the MAT HQ or the BAT HQ to prevent for maps to get ranked?

While I find it unlikely there is such a thing, I think many people think that way because of how hard it is and how long it takes to get a map ranked, especially if you're not well known...

I don't know why you're saying "many people". The MATs and BATs have no intention of purposely trying to delay ranking anything, and I honestly doubt that "many people" think otherwise.

(Did that sound too rude?)

DO NOT KILL STRUCTURE MAPPER'S SPIRITS!

Krisom for BAT

Ahhhh, just another normal day on osu!

my reviewed view.

if you're copy-pasting cause you're ceebs, then it's lazy.
if you're not, then it's not lazy.

whether the map is good or bad because of this is completely irrelevant.
i.e. lazy mapping has nothing to do with a map being good or bad.

also:

NotShinta wrote:

Krisom for BAT

It is sort of lazy, but I think that transforming a chorus is excusable. My 'Footloose' map has the chorus repeated in the Easy difficulty. I'll admit that I'd done it largely to save time/as a placeholder, but the familiarity would be good for an Easy player. For the other difficulties, I've made the second chorus somewhat different and then copypasted small parts from both choruses for the last one.

Maps should have a sense of familiarity, both between similar/identical sections and between difficulties. I even copy paste some parts from difficulties, before adapting them to the destination difficulty. Otherwise, I just do it for the whole symmetry/repetition thing.

I can't believe I am reading this just to get some more view points on my structured map ~.~ Is it really bad structured map because I don't know a thing about freestyle mapping. Can I be called lazy this way? >.>

One thing maybe in common, those who more to engineered mind will having their map more to structured, meanwhile those who more to artistic will go to free style mapping.

It's not bad to have a structured map in terms of copy and paste, as long as it feels engaging. As long as you don't repeat the same single pattern/s all of the time, then you're not doing anything wrongly. The same pattern repeated for a few bars can be used to create tension.

I tend to draw parallels between between beatmap structure and musical structure myself. I believe that a track with the typical rondo form (A B A C A) should be mapped as such--effectively, most popular songs. A map which never stays the same throughout would be best applied to a song which follows suit.

When isn't escesive i think is very good-used, no boring...