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Playing for fun is not the best way to improve?

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[Gaia]_old
DeathHydra
I think the reason people start saying "enjoy game" is because rrtyui said it (see picture above).

As for "play more", well, it's just true. It's just the general term. I mean, when you do the so-called mechanics training, you also "play more", don't you?
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

DeathAdderz wrote:

I think the reason people start saying "enjoy game" is because rrtyui said it (see picture above).

As for "play more", well, it's just true. It's just the general term. I mean, when you do the so-called mechanics training, you also "play more", don't you?
Yes but clearly a newbie doesn't think that's what play more means
DeathHydra
Can't argue about that, but I often see that newbies ask stuff too general like "how do I get better?". When you ask a very general question, of course the answer will be a general answer, which is "play more".

I'm pretty sure if you ask something specific like "how to increase my stream speed?", you will get some good advice other than simply "play more".
Jukkii
Better questions mean better answers.
But usually when low rankers ask for advice, they ask "how to get good" but instead of answering with "play more" i do the work for them and create their question for them in my mind by looking at their profile and figuring out their weaknesses, then giving advice based on that.

As for OP, yes. Playing for fun is not (usually) the most effective way to improve, however, if you really enjoy playing this game like i do, even training can be really fun (ive been gifted with the ability to start liking something simply by deciding so, usually i do it with music). Also playing for improvement can be fun, as many people enjoy improving and setting better scores than before.
Edgar_Figaro

DeathAdderz wrote:

Can't argue about that, but I often see that newbies ask stuff too general like "how do I get better?". When you ask a very general question, of course the answer will be a general answer, which is "play more".

I'm pretty sure if you ask something specific like "how to increase my stream speed?", you will get some good advice other than simply "play more".
Nah you will still get "Play more" or slightly more specific of "Play more stream maps"
-Makishima S-
My point is, why is it that everything requires training in specific areas and every training is almost not fun, yet the advice given here is "enjoy game", sure this is a video game, but improving in it is also a joy. You don't go around defining what is fun for people, maybe they find the competitiveness fun. Just a thought
Don't compare real life sport training for improvement to computer game, this are two different worlds.
Forcing yourself to do somethign which isn't fun doesn't give any significant improvement.
Simple example: Take a swimmer and tell him to learn Juji-tsu knowing he is not interested in this. I can assure you that someone who enjoy juji-tsu and put his heart into training because "he like it" will achieve more in 6 horus per day than this swimmer training 12 hours while he doesn't like it.

"Pls enjoy game" is good way to start, if you don't enjoy game - why you ever play? Retorical question btw. Either you are hypocrit who search for internet fame or shit. You will not achieve anything if you don't enjoy your activity.

"Play more" is practically proven best form of training in this game. There is no strategies, no tutorials, no guidelines for technical things like streaming, faster tapping etc. All comes to simple training - actually playing this game. More you play, more experience you gain. Simple tasks which require any type of muscle activity gives best output by training muscle memory. osu! is a stupidly simple 2D game.

Playing for fun is one way of improving. Playing specific even most hated pattern is other.
Many players achieved a lot by just playing for fun and best example of this is Rohulk who was having fun in countless multiplayer matches where he just played this game for pure fun.
DeathHydra

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

DeathAdderz wrote:

Can't argue about that, but I often see that newbies ask stuff too general like "how do I get better?". When you ask a very general question, of course the answer will be a general answer, which is "play more".

I'm pretty sure if you ask something specific like "how to increase my stream speed?", you will get some good advice other than simply "play more".
Nah you will still get "Play more" or slightly more specific of "Play more stream maps"
Of course those people exist, but well, you get the point.
Fxjlk

Blitzfrog wrote:

I know many people ask the best way to improve here in G&R and lots of the response is to enjoy game, I think otherwise.

I base the assumption on the fact that people train in anything they do, and training is generally not fun.

For me, I play badminton, and had I just "had fun" and just enjoyed the sport, I would never be even close to my current standard.
Now you might argue that this is a video game, and video games are for fun, I would argue otherwise as well.
I base this on the fact that I personally know a few pro DOTA2 players and Starcraft players. They do not simply just "play more" and improve, instead, they focus on parts of the game and train in that area. They call it mechanics training, and I have had a taste of it, it is far from fun, 30minutes doing the same thing over and over again, but the results are astonishing.

Another example would be piano, do you think professionals just keep playing pieces they enjoy to improve? They don't, they play scales. Sure playing the pieces you love will improve your skills, but it won't take you far and you will end up with lots of technical flaws, e.g. tensing up too much or wrong fingering when descending ...etc.

My point is, why is it that everything requires training in specific areas and every training is almost not fun, yet the advice given here is "enjoy game", sure this is a video game, but improving in it is also a joy. You don't go around defining what is fun for people, maybe they find the competitiveness fun. Just a thought
From your post I can see three main points

1. Fun can be detrimental to improvement as it is a poor guide for what to train

This is true, what you find fun isn't always what you need to do to improve. Many people like to play what they are good at and familiar with which is bad because to improve the fastest you frequently need to do what is new or out of your comfort zone

2. Training generally is not fun and therefore fun doesn't really help you improve

I disagree with this, having fun engages the brain and speeds up improvement if done in the right way. However the fun has to be in the context of figuring out the game or feeling the rhythm not in the context of relaxing or habit.

3. Pro starcraft and dota players do not just "play more" they train a specific area.

When people say play more they don't mean to just play whatever, they usually say this to people who are complaining about their lack of improvement while not putting in enough practice
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

From your post I can see three main points

1. Fun can be detrimental to improvement as it is a poor guide for what to train

This is true, what you find fun isn't always what you need to do to improve. Many people like to play what they are good at and familiar with which is bad because to improve the fastest you frequently need to do what is new or out of your comfort zone

2. Training generally is not fun and therefore fun doesn't really help you improve

I disagree with this, having fun engages the brain and speeds up improvement if done in the right way. However the fun has to be in the context of figuring out the game or feeling the rhythm not in the context of relaxing or habit.

Ok just want to clarify, I haven't seen any study about having fun engages the brain anymore than not having fun, nor have I found a study that shows that it does speed up improvement. However I have found plenty of studies that show an increase in motivation levels after having fun, which maybe the key to improving in long term, but as the title of this post is focused on best way to improve in general, I meant as in the fastest way to improve. Also another thing is, the fun you receive after training is just 10 times better really. The increased speed, the increased stamina by a dramatic amount, it really makes it more fun when you improve.

3. Pro starcraft and dota players do not just "play more" they train a specific area.

When people say play more they don't mean to just play whatever, they usually say this to people who are complaining about their lack of improvement while not putting in enough practice

I doubt that is what they meant. Also aren't we supposed to be as helpful as we can? Like Jukke wrote, writing "play more" you might as well have posted "be more specific" because at least the latter is of use.
-Makishima S-
Searching magical ways of fast improvement in simple as motherfuck 2D game is like searching for pope wife - retarded.
When you learn this?

Best way to improve - play more.

Having fun in activity is crucial for improvement. As i already said, you will not teach a swimmer juji-tsu when he does not have fun with it. Same goes for osu - you will not improve for shit if you don't have fun from playing the game. And game itself is so fuckin simple that.... read above.
[Gaia]_old
If you enjoy game and play more you'll get better, simple as that
Fxjlk

Blitzfrog wrote:

Ok just want to clarify, I haven't seen any study about having fun engages the brain anymore than not having fun, nor have I found a study that shows that it does speed up improvement. However I have found plenty of studies that show an increase in motivation levels after having fun, which maybe the key to improving in long term, but as the title of this post is focused on best way to improve in general, I meant as in the fastest way to improve. Also another thing is, the fun you receive after training is just 10 times better really. The increased speed, the increased stamina by a dramatic amount, it really makes it more fun when you improve.

The more fun you have, the more often or longer you are in a flow state. Being in a flow state is associated with improvement.

I doubt that is what they meant. Also aren't we supposed to be as helpful as we can? Like Jukke wrote, writing "play more" you might as well have posted "be more specific" because at least the latter is of use.

I agree, "play more" is not very helpful. However a lot of the time there isn't much you can do to improve outside of playing more and enjoying the game which is why they are memes in this community. The problem is even though people are right by saying "play more" they aren't doing much to alleviate the frustrations of the players asking the questions which is the root of the problem and and working with them solves this problem.
Hibiya-chan
But isn't "play more" the most general answer here?

I completely agree tho coz at first, I was originally playing this game for the sake pf playing my fave songs but as time passed by, I learned about the ranking system here and all of that stuff so since then, I've been stressing myself most of the time for the sake of improvement tho I can't say that I'm not having fun at all since everytime I fc songs I get motivated to play even harder maps. I improved the hard way and I think that's the only way of improving, by "playing more" and having enough experience in the game to perform decently coz when a new idea is introduced to you, you don't just get used to it in that instant, you slowly adapt to it tho you rly need the motivation to play so having fun is still a factor in improvement.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

The more fun you have, the more often or longer you are in a flow state. Being in a flow state is associated with improvement.

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

I agree, "play more" is not very helpful. However a lot of the time there isn't much you can do to improve outside of playing more and enjoying the game which is why they are memes in this community. The problem is even though people are right by saying "play more" they aren't doing much to alleviate the frustrations of the players asking the questions which is the root of the problem and and working with them solves this problem.

You're right, most players come here due to the frustration they have , and meming at them when they're frustrated is just not helpful (unless they posted in OT which I do troll them). Which is why I kinda decided to put this thought out there in the first place.
N0thingSpecial
Never thought we can actually over think "plz enjoy game" and "play more"

Honestly it's like anything in life you push forward despite how un-fun the process maybe, you will find ways to improve if you want it badly enough, you can feel free to feel what ever you want as "fun" is only a state of mind.

If you want to improve then play more, plz enjoy game cause that's the entire fukin purpose of the game, if it wasn't fun you wouldn't even be playing in the first place, how complicated can you make things seem holy shit
-Makishima S-
If you want to improve then play more, plz enjoy game cause that's the entire fukin purpose of the game, if it wasn't fun you wouldn't even be playing in the first place, how complicated can you make things seem holy shit
OP makies it really dumb and complicated, unfortunatelly.

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.
First off - yes - being better = more fun but it all goes to activity - being fun at all or not. You cannot split this like you are trying to do, it's impossible. Human brain works like it work and if something doesn't give you fun from begining, even training 50 years will still not give you fun on this.
Having fun from activity pushing you to training so you can have more fun.
Having fun from activity makes training enjoyable.
If your training is not enjoyable, you are doing something terribly wrong and you should stop. Either your practice is garbage or your mindset stays on "i get this bad part despite i hate it and i will be better" - nothing more wrong.
B1rd
You only get better my trying hard to improve. 'Having fun' without focusing on improving will not make you better. I know this from experience, I've played a lot but I haven't spent that much time on improving because I find that stressful and frustrating.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

Taiga wrote:

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.
First off - yes - being better = more fun but it all goes to activity - being fun at all or not. You cannot split this like you are trying to do, it's impossible. Human brain works like it work and if something doesn't give you fun from begining, even training 50 years will still not give you fun on this.
Having fun from activity pushing you to training so you can have more fun.
Having fun from activity makes training enjoyable.
If your training is not enjoyable, you are doing something terribly wrong and you should stop. Either your practice is garbage or your mindset stays on "i get this bad part despite i hate it and i will be better" - nothing more wrong.
Ever heard of Muhammad Ali's quote? "I hated every second if training, but I told myself, push through this and you will become a champion"

So are you gonna tell me he is doing it wrong? The legendary world champion boxer is doing it wrong? He certainly didn't like training, but certainly loved boxing. But did he just "have fun" and spar all day?

Next not given fun in the first place, so you think kids who are forced to play piano love it when they first touch it? Don't you think they wanna play with their friends instead? Ever heard if acquired taste? There are many things in life that althought you don't like at the start, you start liking it as you be come better. Same thing with osu, eve Rafis hated it at the start, but now he loves it.

And you're wrong about how human brain works, one of the fundamental principles of attraction is exposure, we like what we're exposed more of. Neurons fire in a a specific way for a particular event, and the more times it is fired, the more stronger it will become, making you more likely to do it again.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Never thought we can actually over think "plz enjoy game" and "play more"

Honestly it's like anything in life you push forward despite how un-fun the process maybe, you will find ways to improve if you want it badly enough, you can feel free to feel what ever you want as "fun" is only a state of mind.

If you want to improve then play more, plz enjoy game cause that's the entire fukin purpose of the game, if it wasn't fun you wouldn't even be playing in the first place, how complicated can you make things seem holy shit
Did you even read what I wrote....
If TLDR then please don't reply :?
N0thingSpecial
Yes but you yourself even said we as a community can't define what's fun for what player then why are you even bringing up the discussion knowing entirely fun is a state of mind, what's left of this discussion is that "I think training is important even if it's not fun" well duh that's what life is about in the first place, I play the piano I know this shit, I have a job and I know this shit, if you think it's important enough you would turn any negative pressure like training, practice, boring repetitive routine, into something that motivates you to become better.

My point is bringing this up is pointless cause if the player don't think this game is important or fun to start with then wats the point into pushing them to do training

The group people who constantly post "hur dur how do I improve" ot anything vague don't actually give a shit about their improvement, if they did they would've identify the problem and look up Google or ask for specificity in their thread. Bottom line is that if they give half assed discussion topics we give half assed but truthful answer like "plz enjoy game" or "play more"
-Makishima S-
Ever heard of Muhammad Ali's quote? "I hated every second if training, but I told myself, push through this and you will become a champion"

So are you gonna tell me he is doing it wrong? The legendary world champion boxer is doing it wrong? He certainly didn't like training, but certainly loved boxing. But did he just "have fun" and spar all day?
You take this quote too open. If you check deeper and analyze reason why he said it, you will understand, it's about the message for people who don't see hope despite long trainings - to not give up. "Message sentences" are said in several different ways and open interpretation of them is often wrong.

Next not given fun in the first place, so you think kids who are forced to play piano love it when they first touch it? Don't you think they wanna play with their friends instead?
And non of them are known like Chopin, Mozard, Bach and many more who was learning this and doing it on their own. The whole principle of "parents forcing kids to play something" was created as missconception of well known composer bio where short biography presented in newspapers etc often inform only about "their parents giving them lessons". People forgot that in the past, it was hard for great teachers, often cost of lessons from them was beyond family cash.


There are many things in life that althought you don't like at the start, you start liking it as you be come better. Same thing with osu, eve Rafis hated it at the start, but now he loves it.
From what i know, Rafis on "interview" claimed he played osu once and he liked it from start. You have wrong info.

And you're wrong about how human brain works, one of the fundamental principles of attraction is exposure, we like what we're exposed more of. Neurons fire in a a specific way for a particular event, and the more times it is fired, the more stronger it will become, making you more likely to do it again.
One more time - go deeper into analyze and understanding.
Human brain and body will have way harder time to learn something which it doesn't like.
If we take perfect training practice and 2 people, one who loves activity and second who will get forced to it: who do you think will achieve more?

Small story from my own life - my parents wanted me to be a "psychologist" since as a kid i had wide open mind. In 1989 i got "exposed" to first computer, programming in basic. You know why i lied to parents that "i am learning to be a psychologist"? To indirectly force them as a kid to buy me new and new and new computer each 2-3 years and focus on this what i really like - software engineering. At the end, i have 2 University Grade Engineer titles in both - Software Engineering and Network Security and do not what my parents wanted but what i love.

I saw people who went to learn software engineering atracted by money - while for me learning C++/Python in University was pretty much - look for some "black bible", spend 2-3 hours on code examples, go play games, for them who went "for money" as they climed it was whole days and nights of learning.

TL;DR: Your whole point is invalid when you try to prove something without proper understanding of a problem and solutions for it. Answer often is different when you handle problem stright away and split it into pieces and analyze deeply from the core.
Sayorie
What you need, dear OP, is passion to improve. That's what makes climbing the steep slope fun.
RaneFire
I think the real point of "play for fun" is actually a caution to players not to get hung up on internet fame, and also specifically because this game does not attract any significant prize money reward. But playing for fun can include strategies to improve. Who says they can't? You just do both at the same time and avoid strategies which are genuinely unpleasant (not the result of mistakes).

It would be fallacious to assume that fun is the only way to motivate yourself to improve, because there are plenty other ways to motivate yourself (internet fame for example, and... potentially winning some money). Granted, if you are really good at osu!, twitch.tv can earn you money from supporters, but I'm not too clued up on the statistics. The only problem is that you have to be extremely good... one of the few, or even just the best.

I know why I spent my time playing certain games at a young age, and it wasn't because it was fun. For many of the games, it was fun. But for the main game I played, it was because I was delusional. Internet fame sucks. It is a delusion and it is transient. When life catches up, only a few will care who you were 3 years later (in which case they probably fall into the "friends" category), because even average players will have surpassed you, unless you are the absolute best at the game by a good few light years.

In same the way as a pyramid scheme would earn people money, so does gaming. Only the top of the top of the 1% make anything worthwhile. It is better to just enjoy all the benefits of life and focus on getting a job as your primary source of income, instead of thinking you can make it as a gamer because you "enjoy" it. Sure, it is more fun than working, no argument there, but it is not a good investment of your time for the long term, considering just how much you have to play/practice that ONE game to get anywhere. Diversity is fun too, and so is being social. That's not to assume anyone isn't doing those last two, but if you are really driven to be the best at a game, there is a good chance you aren't.

You know what's a really good investment to start young? Physical training. You will take your health for granted until it goes pear shaped, not purely because you sat on your ass all day as a kid, but because you didn't use your healthiest and most developmental years wisely. Kudos to some of the pro gamers who have their shit together, though.
Fxjlk
Really well though out posts by Taiga N0thingSpecial and Ranefire, they were very interesting to read.

Blitzfrog wrote:

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

If results are needed as soon as possible then pushing through training even when its not fun will lead to results faster, however the efficiency of the training diminishes the longer you go. Putting in more hours is one way to get results but enjoying the game or getting more motivated or engaged is another way. If you decide to put in more training be careful doing this as it can lead to RSI or burnout.

You're right, most players come here due to the frustration they have , and meming at them when they're frustrated is just not helpful (unless they posted in OT which I do troll them). Which is why I kinda decided to put this thought out there in the first place.

N0thingSpecial gave a reason to why people do this, its because many of the posters who ask for help have done no research at all or want results without putting effort in themselves. Why bother helping people who barely help themselves?

Even if you do give a well though out detailed answer, a person like that is unlikely to even read the advice so its a waste of time.

On a side note since you have made a decently though out post and are engaged in discussion people will want to give you good advice rather than just say play more.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

[Taiga] wrote:

Ever heard of Muhammad Ali's quote? "I hated every second if training, but I told myself, push through this and you will become a champion"

So are you gonna tell me he is doing it wrong? The legendary world champion boxer is doing it wrong? He certainly didn't like training, but certainly loved boxing. But did he just "have fun" and spar all day?
You take this quote too open. If you check deeper and analyze reason why he said it, you will understand, it's about the message for people who don't see hope despite long trainings - to not give up. "Message sentences" are said in several different ways and open interpretation of them is often wrong.

Let me ask you then, why did he say such a quote. If by having fun is the best way to improve, why tell others to push through the hard and tedious training, why not say "enjoy boxing," Or for that concern, why is there so many quotes of push hard and become champion in the first place when according to you, the best way to improve is have fun.

Next not given fun in the first place, so you think kids who are forced to play piano love it when they first touch it? Don't you think they wanna play with their friends instead?
And non of them are known like Chopin, Mozard, Bach and many more who was learning this and doing it on their own. The whole principle of "parents forcing kids to play something" was created as missconception of well known composer bio where short biography presented in newspapers etc often inform only about "their parents giving them lessons". People forgot that in the past, it was hard for great teachers, often cost of lessons from them was beyond family cash.

Ok just gonna addres the thing you're talking about first. Did you leave out Beethoven on purpose? Probably the most famous composer of all time, father of romantic period basically, and amazing compositions of symphonies. If you didn't, then I just want to say, his background is exactly the opposite of what you said. Forced by his dad to play piano even at night, he was beaten by his dad. If you are gonna say he likes piano at the start, I'm gonna proceed to kill myself because nobody is that dumb.
Also one more thing, I hated badminton when I first started. Now I love it, so these are just why I believe you can start liking something simply by doing it.

I commend though, that information I did not know and I will look into it more deeply, thanks.



There are many things in life that althought you don't like at the start, you start liking it as you be come better. Same thing with osu, eve Rafis hated it at the start, but now he loves it.
From what i know, Rafis on "interview" claimed he played osu once and he liked it from start. You have wrong info.

https://youtu.be/wKhuovIMa8k
Check 1:40

And you're wrong about how human brain works, one of the fundamental principles of attraction is exposure, we like what we're exposed more of. Neurons fire in a a specific way for a particular event, and the more times it is fired, the more stronger it will become, making you more likely to do it again.
One more time - go deeper into analyze and understanding.
Human brain and body will have way harder time to learn something which it doesn't like.
If we take perfect training practice and 2 people, one who loves activity and second who will get forced to it: who do you think will achieve more?

I honestly am questioning you thinking my depth of analysis is shallow, like the above it seems to me like you're not understanding my point. I am not trying to show I'm a superior human being, otherwise I would use big words to make myself sound more knowledgeable, point is, I'm not trying to argue with you, just wanting you to at least take in some of what I am saying. You seem to be talking about someone being forced to do something, and not succeeding in it, whereas I'm talking about when you want to do something, you gotta train which isn't always very fun. You can see what I was trying to say by my example of Muhammad Ali's quote. He certainly loved boxing, but he hated training, and that's what I'm trying to say.


No, not necessarily. The misconception of fun makes you improve faster lies by the fact that people think its logical that fun improves learning speed directly. It doesn't. What it does is elevate motivation and concentration, the latter is the real requirement to speed learning. Why is it that taking breaks between practises is considered the best way to improve? Its because of concentration.

What you said about the test, yes it's true, if all other factors remain constant, the guy with more fun will improve faster. But what if I told the other guy I will kill him if he doesn't beat the other guy, he will focus more, he will not waste any time. Some of you might say, hey he is going to be frustrated, which will reduce hisbabiloty to learn, ill say no. When under threats like these, adrenaline comes into play. You start reacting faster, muscles become faster due to increased blood flow, you enter deep breathing, allowing more oxygen to be taken on and used by the muscle. Basically you go into superman mode. Disclaimer, this is not the same adrenaline level as close to FCing something, it is much more intense due to it being life threatening. Sure enough, he may not like osu, but at the end of the day he is going to learn faster.

So what, when the hell is that gonna happen?
My point is, you're disregarding all the other emotions a human can exhibit. Love, fear, anger. These emotions are all more intense then fun, resulting in more concentration.

But that is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about training rather than having fun. Surely if you can enjoy training, you will be a prodigy, like your example, Mozart and Chopin.

Small story from my own life - my parents wanted me to be a "psychologist" since as a kid i had wide open mind. In 1989 i got "exposed" to first computer, programming in basic. You know why i lied to parents that "i am learning to be a psychologist"? To indirectly force them as a kid to buy me new and new and new computer each 2-3 years and focus on this what i really like - software engineering. At the end, i have 2 University Grade Engineer titles in both - Software Engineering and Network Security and do not what my parents wanted but what i love.

I saw people who went to learn software engineering atracted by money - while for me learning C++/Python in University was pretty much - look for some "black bible", spend 2-3 hours on code examples, go play games, for them who went "for money" as they climed it was whole days and nights of learning.

Seeing this does make me feel somewhat sorry for you, which is probably the emotion you were trying to give to me, and I do see where you're coming from but I want to say that this is not the same case. And the reason I say that is because a job choice, and job choices generally you only get 1 degree, you would obviously want something you love. For games its different, you are not bound by something, you're not forced to pick, therefore you have the option to try everything, allowing you to fall in love with something you hated at the start.

TL;DR: Your whole point is invalid when you try to prove something without proper understanding of a problem and solutions for it. Answer often is different when you handle problem stright away and split it into pieces and analyze deeply from the core.
Isn't that what I did? I split the problem into 3 parts and adressed each issue independently. Did I not have a proper understanding of what I'm saying? If that is really so, why did you need to give such a long post, some of which are actually on topic. I think what you have posted here is valuable information, but sadly I felt that it was driven by anger to prove me wrong or to not lose face. I apologise if I made you feel this way at all, it is not what I'm intending to do, but please focus on topic rather than trying to poke at my understanding when I laid out lots of thought process. I even brain stormed this thread before I posted.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

RaneFire wrote:

I think the real point of "play for fun" is actually a caution to players not to get hung up on internet fame, and also specifically because this game does not attract any significant prize money reward. But playing for fun can include strategies to improve. Who says they can't? You just do both at the same time and avoid strategies which are genuinely unpleasant (not the result of mistakes).

It would be fallacious to assume that fun is the only way to motivate yourself to improve, because there are plenty other ways to motivate yourself (internet fame for example, and... potentially winning some money). Granted, if you are really good at osu!, twitch.tv can earn you money from supporters, but I'm not too clued up on the statistics. The only problem is that you have to be extremely good... one of the few, or even just the best.

I know why I spent my time playing certain games at a young age, and it wasn't because it was fun. For many of the games, it was fun. But for the main game I played, it was because I was delusional. Internet fame sucks. It is a delusion and it is transient. When life catches up, only a few will care who you were 3 years later (in which case they probably fall into the "friends" category), because even average players will have surpassed you, unless you are the absolute best at the game by a good few light years.

In same the way as a pyramid scheme would earn people money, so does gaming. Only the top of the top of the 1% make anything worthwhile. It is better to just enjoy all the benefits of life and focus on getting a job as your primary source of income, instead of thinking you can make it as a gamer because you "enjoy" it. Sure, it is more fun than working, no argument there, but it is not a good investment of your time for the long term, considering just how much you have to play/practice that ONE game to get anywhere. Diversity is fun too, and so is being social. That's not to assume anyone isn't doing those last two, but if you are really driven to be the best at a game, there is a good chance you aren't.

You know what's a really good investment to start young? Physical training. You will take your health for granted until it goes pear shaped, not purely because you sat on your ass all day as a kid, but because you didn't use your healthiest and most developmental years wisely. Kudos to some of the pro gamers who have their shit together, though.
Alright I 100% agree with your view, now convince me that is what everyone is saying when they say plz enjoy game

Also mods please somehow sticky this post, its valuable information for everyone
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Really well though out posts by Taiga N0thingSpecial and Ranefire, they were very interesting to read.

Blitzfrog wrote:

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

If results are needed as soon as possible then pushing through training even when its not fun will lead to results faster, however the efficiency of the training diminishes the longer you go. Putting in more hours is one way to get results but enjoying the game or getting more motivated or engaged is another way. If you decide to put in more training be careful doing this as it can lead to RSI or burnout.

You're right, extensive training is diminishing and may give you RSI. Which is why it should be paired up with breaks.
As to your idea of pairing training with fun, I think if training is fun, you're either doing it wrong, or you're a weirdo, and have seen some people enjoy playing scales.


You're right, most players come here due to the frustration they have , and meming at them when they're frustrated is just not helpful (unless they posted in OT which I do troll them). Which is why I kinda decided to put this thought out there in the first place.

N0thingSpecial gave a reason to why people do this, its because many of the posters who ask for help have done no research at all or want results without putting effort in themselves. Why bother helping people who barely help themselves?

Even if you do give a well though out detailed answer, a person like that is unlikely to even read the advice so its a waste of time.

On a side note since you have made a decently though out post and are engaged in discussion people will want to give you good advice rather than just say play more.

Just want to clarify, I'm not looking for advices on becoming better, I was just giving people my idea. As to what you're saying, surely of the massive amount of people posting here, there has to be that one boob which doesn't even know what to look for, and doesn't know what to improve on. So the natural question to ask is how to improve? And then i see a bunch of memes down there it really makes me sad you know.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Yes but you yourself even said we as a community can't define what's fun for what player then why are you even bringing up the discussion knowing entirely fun is a state of mind, what's left of this discussion is that "I think training is important even if it's not fun" well duh that's what life is about in the first place, I play the piano I know this shit, I have a job and I know this shit, if you think it's important enough you would turn any negative pressure like training, practice, boring repetitive routine, into something that motivates you to become better.

My point is bringing this up is pointless cause if the player don't think this game is important or fun to start with then wats the point into pushing them to do training

The group people who constantly post "hur dur how do I improve" ot anything vague don't actually give a shit about their improvement, if they did they would've identify the problem and look up Google or ask for specificity in their thread. Bottom line is that if they give half assed discussion topics we give half assed but truthful answer like "plz enjoy game" or "play more"

Why I brought this up is because clearly that is not what people are thinking when they post "play more" or "enjoy game". Please don't give yourself an escape route for saying those things. By your criteria, a true half assed fast general answer should be "train specific stuff", because that is somewhat helpful at the least. I swear majority of the people were just meming at them because they either 1.thought it was funny or 2.legitimately thought that is how you improve
-Makishima S-
Let me ask you then, why did he say such a quote. If by having fun is the best way to improve, why tell others to push through the hard and tedious training, why not say "enjoy boxing," Or for that concern, why is there so many quotes of push hard and become champion in the first place when according to you, the best way to improve is have fun.
About quote itself - same thing like with milion other quotes said in twisted way to humanity. It's your interpretation of it what matters and it can be either good or bad. That's the point of philosophy.
Now i could ask you: please take one activity which you don't like, don't enjoy and please - push hard, be a "so called champion". Can you do this? I doubt it, even if - every single person who enjoys this activity will be better than you, no matter how much you will force yourself. It's complex mindset which force people to train, explore new posibilities by being better at something but to do this, first of all - you need to enjoy what you are doing, you need to feel constant "wind in the sails" to not get mentaly exhausted by this.

Wise people tend to give their knowledge in way that humanity can make interpretations, put it into not one certain situation but many different, yet they always have one proper message. In case of your quote from M.Ali, it's "never give up, push yourself more and more to be better, you will not achieve the very top by sitting on your ass" or "there is no glory without hard training", both are true.

The other truth proved by both - psychology and medicine is that you will never do better at something what doesn't give you some kind of joy.

Ok just gonna addres the thing you're talking about first. Did you leave out Beethoven on purpose? Probably the most famous composer of all time, father of romantic period basically, and amazing compositions of symphonies. If you didn't, then I just want to say, his background is exactly the opposite of what you said. Forced by his dad to play piano even at night, he was beaten by his dad. If you are gonna say he likes piano at the start, I'm gonna proceed to kill myself because nobody is that dumb.
Also one more thing, I hated badminton when I first started. Now I love it, so these are just why I believe you can start liking something simply by doing it.

I commend though, that information I did not know and I will look into it more deeply, thanks.
In classical music, many critics will tell you that "X" is most famous composer of all time. I could say - Brahms and Schubert are the very great for my taste. There is no thing like "one best of all". Yes, i left him on purpose since i done research before and i knew his story. Back to middle school i liked history. There will be always separated examples from main theory but they are always in minority. In actual world, you make assumptions and prove them in term of majority which in this case - it's what i am trying to explain you.

https://youtu.be/wKhuovIMa8k
Check 1:40
Rafis didn't said he hated it, he said it was boring and majority of people find begining of osu! journey fuckin boring. Almost nothing to click, always same boring patterns, zero creativity and retarded blankets forced by QAT/BN because "fuck playability, map should look nice", etc. Nothing more wrong from your side.

I'm talking about when you want to do something, you gotta train which isn't always very fun.
Training is part of activity. As far as your activity gives you fun and you find yourself enjoying it and being forced by this joy to get better and discover new posibilities, that what you call "training not being fun" goes into second plane.
Counter-argument - training in something what doesn't catch you, doesn't give you fun at all - yes, then training is anti-fun, painfull and mostly wasted.

No, not necessarily. The misconception of fun makes you improve faster lies by the fact that people think its logical that fun improves learning speed directly. It doesn't. What it does is elevate motivation and concentration, the latter is the real requirement to speed learning. Why is it that taking breaks between practises is considered the best way to improve? Its because of concentration.
Fun improves learning speed a lot and it's proved by people way more smart than you and me. You cannot deny this.
I already gave you example for this.

Target of argument:
Person A, fan of water sports, not interested at all in martial arts.
Person B, fan of martial art sports, not interested at all in water sports.

Rule of experiment:
Perfect training shedule for both - water sport called "swimming" and martial art called "Juji-tsu".
Amount of training time is same for both targets.
Amount of mental and physical effort is same for both activities.

Proof of argument:
Person A will never achieve target B skill level in Juji-tsu due mental disability to accomodate martial arts activity.
Person B will never achieve target A skill level in swimming due --``-- water sports activity.

But what if I told the other guy I will kill him if he doesn't beat the other guy, he will focus more, he will not waste any time. Some of you might say, hey he is going to be frustrated, which will reduce hisbabiloty to learn, ill say no. When under threats like these, adrenaline comes into play. You start reacting faster, muscles become faster due to increased blood flow, you enter deep breathing, allowing more oxygen to be taken on and used by the muscle. Basically you go into superman mode. Disclaimer, this is not the same adrenaline level as close to FCing something, it is much more intense due to it being life threatening. Sure enough, he may not like osu, but at the end of the day he is going to learn faster.
Invalid point - critical force for achievement is dictated by human body and mind limits. Each person have different. I can assure you that if you threat someone by putting gun to his mother head and telling him to stand on one finger, he will not do this unless his body allows him. There is too many variables in this calculation which negate whole point of this discussion. This one argument can be discussed in term of particular person and end result is pinned to this one particulat test subject.

If your point was valid, in WWII nazi germany could create tons of super-human soldiers but they failed by simply going exacly your way of thinking. I recommend you to get into whole Nazi germany human experiments topic, especially part of test subject mentally forced to do something by situations of seeing their family being "killed on their eyes when they fail". It's interesting experiment and gives a lot of knowledge about humanity limits to do certain things.

Seeing this does make me feel somewhat sorry for you, which is probably the emotion you were trying to give to me, and I do see where you're coming from but I want to say that this is not the same case. And the reason I say that is because a job choice, and job choices generally you only get 1 degree, you would obviously want something you love. For games its different, you are not bound by something, you're not forced to pick, therefore you have the option to try everything, allowing you to fall in love with something you hated at the start.
My point was - I didn't gave a fuck about what my parent wanted, i was doing what i loved, i studies what i love, now i am doing what i love which is programming in category of database and network security applications, mainly backend logic alghorithms. So why this little story - to bring into light that even for me, when I love programming it took time to learn things, i spent a lot of time in IDE creating code from scratch, testing it, trying different algorithms to solve problems. One could say this wasn't fun from 3rd person perspective. It was fun from my own perspective and despite spending lots of time pretty much wasted on creating something which later on i just deleted due being retarded, it ended up giving me stronger understanding of language itself. Nothing was wasted.

Oh well, dunno if i will add something to this, I don't like to split things which are pretty much logically obvious in term of majority as test subject.
hf
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

[Taiga] wrote:

About quote itself - same thing like with milion other quotes said in twisted way to humanity. It's your interpretation of it what matters and it can be either good or bad. That's the point of philosophy.
Now i could ask you: please take one activity which you don't like, don't enjoy and please - push hard, be a "so called champion". Can you do this? I doubt it, even if - every single person who enjoys this activity will be better than you, no matter how much you will force yourself. It's complex mindset which force people to train, explore new posibilities by being better at something but to do this, first of all - you need to enjoy what you are doing, you need to feel constant "wind in the sails" to not get mentaly exhausted by this.

Wise people tend to give their knowledge in way that humanity can make interpretations, put it into not one certain situation but many different, yet they always have one proper message. In case of your quote from M.Ali, it's "never give up, push yourself more and more to be better, you will not achieve the very top by sitting on your ass" or "there is no glory without hard training", both are true.

The other truth proved by both - psychology and medicine is that you will never do better at something what doesn't give you some kind of joy.

No it is not proved by psychology, and it has close to nothing to do with medicine. Psychology in fact, is on the downhill atm because many if it's experiments were P-hacked.(like probability hacked, simply experiments were done very untruthfully to obtain a shocking result in order to publish and get money)

And yes you can beat someone else by sheer better training. In China there are concentration camps sort of thing for badminton, I love badminton, down to the core. But no matter how hard I try, ill never come close to any of them. Due to poor training in NZ and less quantity if training. I had a Thai chick that came to NZ this year, she bet me in badminton. Normally that is very hard for a girl, not being sexist but its true. She told me straight after that she hated badminton, and that she was forced to play. You know how that made me felt, like trash, Cus despite loving something, I can't beat her due to the much better training in Thailand and my lack of talent compared to her.

Many people hate, and I mean hate, piano at the start. But they were forced to continue, and then they love it. Why? Lot of the time its because they can show off, and that drives them to practise. There is no traditional "fun" here, but the current most technical pianist, at least majority would agree, Lang Lang, is driven by showing off, in return giving him the "fun".

I like it when you said you will be mentally exhausted if you don't enjoy it in the first place, you're dead right. But many times you don't realise you like something till you get good at it. Nobody likes Dota at the start, died 64 times in my first game. Learning curve is too steep, but when you get good, and you stomp, you get all the good feels. If you are implying that to like something, you have to like it straight away, I would have to say you're wrong sorry.

Of course, if you can enjoy training, you will be a prodigy.


Ok just gonna addres the thing you're talking about first. Did you leave out Beethoven on purpose? Probably the most famous composer of all time, father of romantic period basically, and amazing compositions of symphonies. If you didn't, then I just want to say, his background is exactly the opposite of what you said. Forced by his dad to play piano even at night, he was beaten by his dad. If you are gonna say he likes piano at the start, I'm gonna proceed to kill myself because nobody is that dumb.
Also one more thing, I hated badminton when I first started. Now I love it, so these are just why I believe you can start liking something simply by doing it.

I commend though, that information I did not know and I will look into it more deeply, thanks.
In classical music, many critics will tell you that "X" is most famous composer of all time. I could say - Brahms and Schubert are the very great for my taste. There is no thing like "one best of all". Yes, i left him on purpose since i done research before and i knew his story. Back to middle school i liked history. There will be always separated examples from main theory but they are always in minority. In actual world, you make assumptions and prove them in term of majority which in this case - it's what i am trying to explain you.

If a music critic says Beethoven is not the most famous of all time, that person is not a music critic. Because that is like saying Einstein is not the most famous physicist of all time. Yeah sure there is Newton, but people know E=mc2 and not F=ma.

Brahms and Schubert are very great 8-)

You're right, but these are the type of boys who have extroadinary talent and loves playing scales. They spent all day in front of piano or scoresheet, if they aren't prodigy, I'm not a human


https://youtu.be/wKhuovIMa8k
Check 1:40
Rafis didn't said he hated it, he said it was boring and majority of people find begining of osu! journey fuckin boring. Almost nothing to click, always same boring patterns, zero creativity and retarded blankets forced by QAT/BN because "fuck playability, map should look nice", etc. Nothing more wrong from your side.

But doesn't boring translate to not fun? Not every map was like that. Lesjuh and a bunch of old mappers. You're older, I know less than you, but I know that not all maps are that trash, simply because I have most of them. But did Rafis quit? He did. Annnnd he came back. Point is, you don't just like something by not playing it when it's not fun. Rafis gave it another go, I'm sure when he first came back, he had the mentality that this game sucks. And guess what he was attracted by? Not the game, but the ranking, just like Lang Lang

I'm talking about when you want to do something, you gotta train which isn't always very fun.
Training is part of activity. As far as your activity gives you fun and you find yourself enjoying it and being forced by this joy to get better and discover new posibilities, that what you call "training not being fun" goes into second plane.
Counter-argument - training in something what doesn't catch you, doesn't give you fun at all - yes, then training is anti-fun, painfull and mostly wasted.

Ok I think you misunderstood what I was saying. If you decide you want to get good at something, it is usually driven by an emotion. Anger, Love, fun whatever you name it. So you already have a "reason" why you play, and you want to improve the fastest you can for whatever the hell knows reason. I'm saying, training, is the best way to go.

Just asking, do you think training is fun so long as you like the thing you're doing? If not skip next para

Judo champions have strict routines, they are not bodybuilders, not stretchers or splitters. People don't go into judo thinking of doing the splits, or lifting weights/rolling weights. They go in to throw people. But that is certainly not how you train judo. They train tour rolls, make you do splits to ensure you're flexible, train you cores to make sure you can endure the rotation of your body, point is, these are boring as hell. Sure there are some maniac out there that loves this, but most people will hate it. 30 min straight repetition of a small task is boring for anyone


No, not necessarily. The misconception of fun makes you improve faster lies by the fact that people think its logical that fun improves learning speed directly. It doesn't. What it does is elevate motivation and concentration, the latter is the real requirement to speed learning. Why is it that taking breaks between practises is considered the best way to improve? Its because of concentration.
Fun improves learning speed a lot and it's proved by people way more smart than you and me. You cannot deny this.

Yes I can, because it is not proven. There have been attempts, none of them passed the probability test. I think what you're talking about is the memory tricked, that is certainly tested. It states that humor helps learning. As laughing releases some sort of chemical I forgot, probably endorphin, so it helps moving memories from short term memory to long term memory storage.

I already gave you example for this.

Target of argument:
Person A, fan of water sports, not interested at all in martial arts.
Person B, fan of martial art sports, not interested at all in water sports.

Rule of experiment:
Perfect training shedule for both - water sport called "swimming" and martial art called "Juji-tsu".
Amount of training time is same for both targets.
Amount of mental and physical effort is same for both activities.

Proof of argument:
Person A will never achieve target B skill level in Juji-tsu due mental disability to accomodate martial arts activity.
Person B will never achieve target A skill level in swimming due --``-- water sports activity.

Yes but what I'm arguing here is training makes a bigger difference than fun.
Also you forgot to set talent as a constant

Ok I give you another experiment

Person A: Fan of Judo
Person B: Hates Judo

Rule:
Person A is self taught
Person B is taught extensively

Now tell me if I made them fight, who will win? I would say its so close to 100% to be person B that whether talent is a constant or not, it doesn't change the results


But what if I told the other guy I will kill him if he doesn't beat the other guy, he will focus more, he will not waste any time. Some of you might say, hey he is going to be frustrated, which will reduce hisbabiloty to learn, ill say no. When under threats like these, adrenaline comes into play. You start reacting faster, muscles become faster due to increased blood flow, you enter deep breathing, allowing more oxygen to be taken on and used by the muscle. Basically you go into superman mode. Disclaimer, this is not the same adrenaline level as close to FCing something, it is much more intense due to it being life threatening. Sure enough, he may not like osu, but at the end of the day he is going to learn faster.
Invalid point - critical force for achievement is dictated by human body and mind limits. Each person have different. I can assure you that if you threat someone by putting gun to his mother head and telling him to stand on one finger, he will not do this unless his body allows him. There is too many variables in this calculation which negate whole point of this discussion. This one argument can be discussed in term of particular person and end result is pinned to this one particulat test subject.

If your point was valid, in WWII nazi germany could create tons of super-human soldiers but they failed by simply going exacly your way of thinking. I recommend you to get into whole Nazi germany human experiments topic, especially part of test subject mentally forced to do something by situations of seeing their family being "killed on their eyes when they fail". It's interesting experiment and gives a lot of knowledge about humanity limits to do certain things.

Ok that is like saying under threat situations, why can't people run at the speed of light?
Of course there is limit to how good you'll become.

What I have said is not an invalid point, you have just turned it invalid. Are you telling me that you don't run faster under life threatening situations? You don't need much adrenaline to be more focused than someone having fun you know.

On a side note, I searched for the Nazi testing people's limits to do things, not worded like this but you get what I mean, but I found nothing. Could you link please, will be greatly appreciated, thx in advance.


Seeing this does make me feel somewhat sorry for you, which is probably the emotion you were trying to give to me, and I do see where you're coming from but I want to say that this is not the same case. And the reason I say that is because a job choice, and job choices generally you only get 1 degree, you would obviously want something you love. For games its different, you are not bound by something, you're not forced to pick, therefore you have the option to try everything, allowing you to fall in love with something you hated at the start.
My point was - I didn't gave a fuck about what my parent wanted, i was doing what i loved, i studies what i love, now i am doing what i love which is programming in category of database and network security applications, mainly backend logic alghorithms. So why this little story - to bring into light that even for me, when I love programming it took time to learn things, i spent a lot of time in IDE creating code from scratch, testing it, trying different algorithms to solve problems. One could say this wasn't fun from 3rd person perspective. It was fun from my own perspective and despite spending lots of time pretty much wasted on creating something which later on i just deleted due being retarded, it ended up giving me stronger understanding of language itself. Nothing was wasted.

Well honestly, this is your life down. You really got limited options and I'm glad to see you chose something you enjoy.

Oh well, dunno if i will add something to this, I don't like to split things which are pretty much logically obvious in term of majority as test subject.
hf
You know, it makes me sad the fact that instead of an exchange of idea. You have made this discussion into a combat, a brawl of who is better. Instead of absorbing and learning off each other, I feel like you built a fortress and punished anyone who comes near. I want to once more tell you, I am here to discuss and not to make myself sound better than you. I respect you as a poster, your knowledge but I am just saying what I think.

Just realised my horrible font colour, I apologise to anyone taking the time reading this
-Makishima S-
You know, it makes me sad the fact that instead of an exchange of idea. You have made this discussion into a combat, a brawl of who is better.
No, i just see that few people told you same thing what i was trying to tell you in any possible way, yet you stay your side. That's sign of EoT for me. Just few things to clarify:

If a music critic says Beethoven is not the most famous of all time, that person is not a music critic.
That's why there are many critics and all of them have solid arguments on their way to support judgement.
It's not the "choice" what wins critics dispute, it's arguments and way how they are expressed and supported by facts.

But doesn't boring translate to not fun?
No, this are two different things.

Judo champions have strict routines, they are not bodybuilders, not stretchers or splitters. People don't go into judo thinking of doing the splits, or lifting weights/rolling weights. They go in to throw people. But that is certainly not how you train judo. They train tour rolls, make you do splits to ensure you're flexible, train you cores to make sure you can endure the rotation of your body, point is, these are boring as hell. Sure there are some maniac out there that loves this, but most people will hate it. 30 min straight repetition of a small task is boring for anyone
I was training Aiki-do for over half year till our Dojo in city got closed due low amount of people interested in this.
I gave this example for a reason.
You need to love this kind of activity to learn basic kata. Not mention tons of people came and resigned after few trainings.
No, despite i had sleepless nights due pain in wrists, legs but all of this just reminded me how much heart and "blood" i throwed to make another step and learn something.

Rule:
Person A is self taught
Person B is taught extensively
Putting different variables is illogical. If you want to make experiment like that, you need to make both targets on same variable.
Either both self taught or both taught extensively.
What you done here is like trying to compare fixed point number to floating point number. Difference is that both numbers are completely different in arithmetic.

You really got limited options
Bullshit, i am type of person hungry for informations. It's just common sense to learn what you like, study what you like, end up university in what you like than going somewhere else because of money. I have potential to go study law, be a lawyer but why? I am not interested in this, i don't feel fun in this, yet i am aware it could give me few times more money than i am earning now. Fuck this, i prefer work which gives me fun, work what i enjoy and where i can be extremely productive than work which gives tons of money and will just tilt me every fuckin day due being anti-fun at all. Remember, you will not buy sanity with money, you may just lose it because of it.

I respect you as a poster, your knowledge but I am just saying what I think.
Vice versa.
Sorry but logic often doesn't fit philosofical dispute and this one is definitelly one of them.
For me in discussion there is only black and white, 0 and 1 so you may have this feeling.
Stop using colors, it just makes whole text hard to read.

Could you link please, will be greatly appreciated, thx in advance.
Will check book, it's what i remember from history about people threatened in death camps. Dunno if i find english transcription, if not, sorry.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

[Taiga] wrote:

No, i just see that few people told you same thing what i was trying to tell you in any possible way, yet you stay your side. That's sign of EoT for me. Just few things to clarify:
Probably because I haven't been able to be convinced by you, I think you're talking about being forced to do something whilst I'm talking about when you're passionate to do something, or takes blood and sweat to improve. If you haven't seen already, a lot of people already know what I'm talking about.

That's why there are many critics and all of them have solid arguments on their way to support judgement.
It's not the "choice" what wins critics dispute, it's arguments and way how they are expressed and supported by facts.
How famous one is, has a deciding factor. All you need is numbers. Sure there is no sign of who is the best composer of all time, but there is definitely a most famous composer of all time.

No, this are two different things
So you're telling me, people who study, complaining it's boring, could also be feeling fun at the same time?

The definition of boring is not fun, please :?

I was training Aiki-do for over half year till our Dojo in city got closed due low amount of people interested in this.
I gave this example for a reason.
You need to love this kind of activity to learn basic kata. Not mention tons of people came and resigned after few trainings.
No, despite i had sleepless nights due pain in wrists, legs but all of this just reminded me how much heart and "blood" i throwed to make another step and learn something.
Yes you do, and that is exactly what I'm talking about. You put in heart and blood to improve in something, not have fun to improve. Sure, you may find fun in Aikido, but you're probably not gonna find the basic rolls fun. I learnt Krav Maga fyi (useless info). One more thing, not trying to be a dick but Aikido does not have a "-"

Putting different variables is illogical. If you want to make experiment like that, you need to make both targets on same variable.
Either both self taught or both taught extensively.
What you done here is like trying to compare fixed point number to floating point number. Difference is that both numbers are completely different in arithmetic.
What I'm demonstrating here is not illogical, all other factors are remained the same. What I'm demonstrating here is training is more important than fun. Obviously I see that you agree with me.

Bullshit, i am type of person hungry for informations. It's just common sense to learn what you like, study what you like, end up university in what you like than going somewhere else because of money. I have potential to go study law, be a lawyer but why? I am not interested in this, i don't feel fun in this, yet i am aware it could give me few times more money than i am earning now. Fuck this, i prefer work which gives me fun, work what i enjoy and where i can be extremely productive than work which gives tons of money and will just tilt me every fuckin day due being anti-fun at all. Remember, you will not buy sanity with money, you may just lose it because of it.
Why can't I be a physicist and a biologists and a programmer and a lawyer at the same time? Why couldn't you be a lawyer and a programmer at the same time? Because you got limited options... limited by time. What else did you think I mean...

Vice versa.
Sorry but logic often doesn't fit philosofical dispute and this one is definitelly one of them.
For me in discussion there is only black and white, 0 and 1 so you may have this feeling.
Logic always fits in philosophical disputes, we are just not advanced enough to understand and predict human behaviour, my opinion anyway.

Stop using colors, it just makes whole text hard to read
No. :lol:

Will check book, it's what i remember from history about people threatened in death camps. Dunno if i find english transcription, if not, sorry.
I am well aware of the Nazi experiments, but I majority of them were medical stuff for their German soldiers. I really can't find it on the internet, so please man. Love you if you can find it
-Makishima S-
One more thing, not trying to be a dick but Aikido does not have a "-"
You are right, i tend to miss this thing between Aikido and Aiki-jō. Mea Culpa.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

[Taiga] wrote:

One more thing, not trying to be a dick but Aikido does not have a "-"
You are right, i tend to miss this thing between Aikido and Aiki-jō. Mea Culpa.
Prior to you saying this, I had no idea Aiki-jo existed, thanks 4 zat
Fxjlk

Blitzfrog wrote:

But what if I told the other guy I will kill him if he doesn't beat the other guy, he will focus more, he will not waste any time. Some of you might say, hey he is going to be frustrated, which will reduce hisbabiloty to learn, ill say no. When under threats like these, adrenaline comes into play. You start reacting faster, muscles become faster due to increased blood flow, you enter deep breathing, allowing more oxygen to be taken on and used by the muscle. Basically you go into superman mode
This applies to physical sports but not so much in music. This effect only increases your physical capacity not your higher mental capacity. In this state the pre frontal cortex essentially shuts down(which is used to listen to music) which is why its important to be in a relaxed state, not in a fight or flight state when playing music.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

This applies to physical sports but not so much in music. This effect only increases your physical capacity not your higher mental capacity. In this state the pre frontal cortex essentially shuts down(which is used to listen to music) which is why its important to be in a relaxed state, not in a fight or flight state when playing music.
You're right! This in fact doesn't help with physical sports as well since the subject was about learning not performing. It was a very poor example. Maybe a better example would be a reward, where you are given a reward for beating the other person
Fxjlk

Blitzfrog wrote:

You're right! This in fact doesn't help with physical sports as well since the subject was about learning not performing. It was a very poor example. Maybe a better example would be a reward, where you are given a reward for beating the other person
I've seen studies where extrinsic rewards decrease intrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation is very important for learning.
I Give Up
Playing for fun is not the best way to improve?
Not always. You have to work hard and dedicate yourself and that can be quite a hassle, especially if you are not great at this game. Sometimes you gotta take it easy and play other kinds of maps that don't necessarily challenge you but pls enjoy game.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Blitzfrog wrote:

You're right! This in fact doesn't help with physical sports as well since the subject was about learning not performing. It was a very poor example. Maybe a better example would be a reward, where you are given a reward for beating the other person
I've seen studies where extrinsic rewards decrease intrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation is very important for learning.
It depends on how much they value the reward. For example if the reward is their crush, oh man they will thrive
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