Llahmah wrote:

Sure there are faster ways of improving than just playing for fun. Some people try trial by fire, doing maps way too hard and then when they try what they were doing before it seems a lot easier. Because of high fail rate I imagine that's not too fun. Also like you said people might train a certain part of their game. But if you are bad at streaming in the first place and you try practice stream maps, it will probably take a while to improve. So mechanic training could(?) be effective, but unlike Starcraft and dota and other competitive games, there is pretty much no way to go pro. You could become a streamer, but there isn't a major osu! League with 10k prize pools, so all that practice doesn't accumulate to anything worthwhile.

Tl;dr, playing for fun lets you practice many different parts of osu! because most maps have jumps, streams and everything, and practicing streaming on its own and then trying to play a map, where there will be streams, jumps, etc. might seem unnecessary compared to just playing and getting all of the skills. Plus there is no real reason to get good and try for top 50 or whatever unless you are super talented or just really want it that bad.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

this is basically what "play more" and "plz enjoy game" in an elaborate way

DeathAdderz wrote:

I think the reason people start saying "enjoy game" is because rrtyui said it (see picture above).

As for "play more", well, it's just true. It's just the general term. I mean, when you do the so-called mechanics training, you also "play more", don't you?

DeathAdderz wrote:

Can't argue about that, but I often see that newbies ask stuff too general like "how do I get better?". When you ask a very general question, of course the answer will be a general answer, which is "play more".

I'm pretty sure if you ask something specific like "how to increase my stream speed?", you will get some good advice other than simply "play more".

My point is, why is it that everything requires training in specific areas and every training is almost not fun, yet the advice given here is "enjoy game", sure this is a video game, but improving in it is also a joy. You don't go around defining what is fun for people, maybe they find the competitiveness fun. Just a thought

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

DeathAdderz wrote:

Can't argue about that, but I often see that newbies ask stuff too general like "how do I get better?". When you ask a very general question, of course the answer will be a general answer, which is "play more".

I'm pretty sure if you ask something specific like "how to increase my stream speed?", you will get some good advice other than simply "play more".

Nah you will still get "Play more" or slightly more specific of "Play more stream maps"

Blitzfrog wrote:

I know many people ask the best way to improve here in G&R and lots of the response is to enjoy game, I think otherwise.

I base the assumption on the fact that people train in anything they do, and training is generally not fun.

For me, I play badminton, and had I just "had fun" and just enjoyed the sport, I would never be even close to my current standard.
Now you might argue that this is a video game, and video games are for fun, I would argue otherwise as well.
I base this on the fact that I personally know a few pro DOTA2 players and Starcraft players. They do not simply just "play more" and improve, instead, they focus on parts of the game and train in that area. They call it mechanics training, and I have had a taste of it, it is far from fun, 30minutes doing the same thing over and over again, but the results are astonishing.

Another example would be piano, do you think professionals just keep playing pieces they enjoy to improve? They don't, they play scales. Sure playing the pieces you love will improve your skills, but it won't take you far and you will end up with lots of technical flaws, e.g. tensing up too much or wrong fingering when descending ...etc.

My point is, why is it that everything requires training in specific areas and every training is almost not fun, yet the advice given here is "enjoy game", sure this is a video game, but improving in it is also a joy. You don't go around defining what is fun for people, maybe they find the competitiveness fun. Just a thought

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

From your post I can see three main points

1. Fun can be detrimental to improvement as it is a poor guide for what to train

This is true, what you find fun isn't always what you need to do to improve. Many people like to play what they are good at and familiar with which is bad because to improve the fastest you frequently need to do what is new or out of your comfort zone

2. Training generally is not fun and therefore fun doesn't really help you improve

I disagree with this, having fun engages the brain and speeds up improvement if done in the right way. However the fun has to be in the context of figuring out the game or feeling the rhythm not in the context of relaxing or habit.

Ok just want to clarify, I haven't seen any study about having fun engages the brain anymore than not having fun, nor have I found a study that shows that it does speed up improvement. However I have found plenty of studies that show an increase in motivation levels after having fun, which maybe the key to improving in long term, but as the title of this post is focused on best way to improve in general, I meant as in the fastest way to improve. Also another thing is, the fun you receive after training is just 10 times better really. The increased speed, the increased stamina by a dramatic amount, it really makes it more fun when you improve.

3. Pro starcraft and dota players do not just "play more" they train a specific area.

When people say play more they don't mean to just play whatever, they usually say this to people who are complaining about their lack of improvement while not putting in enough practice

I doubt that is what they meant. Also aren't we supposed to be as helpful as we can? Like Jukke wrote, writing "play more" you might as well have posted "be more specific" because at least the latter is of use.

Blitzfrog wrote:

Ok just want to clarify, I haven't seen any study about having fun engages the brain anymore than not having fun, nor have I found a study that shows that it does speed up improvement. However I have found plenty of studies that show an increase in motivation levels after having fun, which maybe the key to improving in long term, but as the title of this post is focused on best way to improve in general, I meant as in the fastest way to improve. Also another thing is, the fun you receive after training is just 10 times better really. The increased speed, the increased stamina by a dramatic amount, it really makes it more fun when you improve.

The more fun you have, the more often or longer you are in a flow state. Being in a flow state is associated with improvement.

I doubt that is what they meant. Also aren't we supposed to be as helpful as we can? Like Jukke wrote, writing "play more" you might as well have posted "be more specific" because at least the latter is of use.

I agree, "play more" is not very helpful. However a lot of the time there isn't much you can do to improve outside of playing more and enjoying the game which is why they are memes in this community. The problem is even though people are right by saying "play more" they aren't doing much to alleviate the frustrations of the players asking the questions which is the root of the problem and and working with them solves this problem.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

The more fun you have, the more often or longer you are in a flow state. Being in a flow state is associated with improvement.

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

I agree, "play more" is not very helpful. However a lot of the time there isn't much you can do to improve outside of playing more and enjoying the game which is why they are memes in this community. The problem is even though people are right by saying "play more" they aren't doing much to alleviate the frustrations of the players asking the questions which is the root of the problem and and working with them solves this problem.

You're right, most players come here due to the frustration they have , and meming at them when they're frustrated is just not helpful (unless they posted in OT which I do troll them). Which is why I kinda decided to put this thought out there in the first place.

If you want to improve then play more, plz enjoy game cause that's the entire fukin purpose of the game, if it wasn't fun you wouldn't even be playing in the first place, how complicated can you make things seem holy shit

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

Taiga wrote:

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

First off - yes - being better = more fun but it all goes to activity - being fun at all or not. You cannot split this like you are trying to do, it's impossible. Human brain works like it work and if something doesn't give you fun from begining, even training 50 years will still not give you fun on this.
Having fun from activity pushing you to training so you can have more fun.
Having fun from activity makes training enjoyable.
If your training is not enjoyable, you are doing something terribly wrong and you should stop. Either your practice is garbage or your mindset stays on "i get this bad part despite i hate it and i will be better" - nothing more wrong.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Never thought we can actually over think "plz enjoy game" and "play more"

Honestly it's like anything in life you push forward despite how un-fun the process maybe, you will find ways to improve if you want it badly enough, you can feel free to feel what ever you want as "fun" is only a state of mind.

If you want to improve then play more, plz enjoy game cause that's the entire fukin purpose of the game, if it wasn't fun you wouldn't even be playing in the first place, how complicated can you make things seem holy shit

Ever heard of Muhammad Ali's quote? "I hated every second if training, but I told myself, push through this and you will become a champion"

So are you gonna tell me he is doing it wrong? The legendary world champion boxer is doing it wrong? He certainly didn't like training, but certainly loved boxing. But did he just "have fun" and spar all day?

Next not given fun in the first place, so you think kids who are forced to play piano love it when they first touch it? Don't you think they wanna play with their friends instead?

There are many things in life that althought you don't like at the start, you start liking it as you be come better. Same thing with osu, eve Rafis hated it at the start, but now he loves it.

And you're wrong about how human brain works, one of the fundamental principles of attraction is exposure, we like what we're exposed more of. Neurons fire in a a specific way for a particular event, and the more times it is fired, the more stronger it will become, making you more likely to do it again.

Blitzfrog wrote:

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

If results are needed as soon as possible then pushing through training even when its not fun will lead to results faster, however the efficiency of the training diminishes the longer you go. Putting in more hours is one way to get results but enjoying the game or getting more motivated or engaged is another way. If you decide to put in more training be careful doing this as it can lead to RSI or burnout.

You're right, most players come here due to the frustration they have , and meming at them when they're frustrated is just not helpful (unless they posted in OT which I do troll them). Which is why I kinda decided to put this thought out there in the first place.

N0thingSpecial gave a reason to why people do this, its because many of the posters who ask for help have done no research at all or want results without putting effort in themselves. Why bother helping people who barely help themselves?

Even if you do give a well though out detailed answer, a person like that is unlikely to even read the advice so its a waste of time.

On a side note since you have made a decently though out post and are engaged in discussion people will want to give you good advice rather than just say play more.

[Taiga] wrote:

Ever heard of Muhammad Ali's quote? "I hated every second if training, but I told myself, push through this and you will become a champion"

So are you gonna tell me he is doing it wrong? The legendary world champion boxer is doing it wrong? He certainly didn't like training, but certainly loved boxing. But did he just "have fun" and spar all day?

You take this quote too open. If you check deeper and analyze reason why he said it, you will understand, it's about the message for people who don't see hope despite long trainings - to not give up. "Message sentences" are said in several different ways and open interpretation of them is often wrong.

Let me ask you then, why did he say such a quote. If by having fun is the best way to improve, why tell others to push through the hard and tedious training, why not say "enjoy boxing," Or for that concern, why is there so many quotes of push hard and become champion in the first place when according to you, the best way to improve is have fun.

Next not given fun in the first place, so you think kids who are forced to play piano love it when they first touch it? Don't you think they wanna play with their friends instead?

And non of them are known like Chopin, Mozard, Bach and many more who was learning this and doing it on their own. The whole principle of "parents forcing kids to play something" was created as missconception of well known composer bio where short biography presented in newspapers etc often inform only about "their parents giving them lessons". People forgot that in the past, it was hard for great teachers, often cost of lessons from them was beyond family cash.

Ok just gonna addres the thing you're talking about first. Did you leave out Beethoven on purpose? Probably the most famous composer of all time, father of romantic period basically, and amazing compositions of symphonies. If you didn't, then I just want to say, his background is exactly the opposite of what you said. Forced by his dad to play piano even at night, he was beaten by his dad. If you are gonna say he likes piano at the start, I'm gonna proceed to kill myself because nobody is that dumb.
Also one more thing, I hated badminton when I first started. Now I love it, so these are just why I believe you can start liking something simply by doing it.

I commend though, that information I did not know and I will look into it more deeply, thanks.

There are many things in life that althought you don't like at the start, you start liking it as you be come better. Same thing with osu, eve Rafis hated it at the start, but now he loves it.

From what i know, Rafis on "interview" claimed he played osu once and he liked it from start. You have wrong info.

https://youtu.be/wKhuovIMa8k
Check 1:40

And you're wrong about how human brain works, one of the fundamental principles of attraction is exposure, we like what we're exposed more of. Neurons fire in a a specific way for a particular event, and the more times it is fired, the more stronger it will become, making you more likely to do it again.

One more time - go deeper into analyze and understanding.
Human brain and body will have way harder time to learn something which it doesn't like.
If we take perfect training practice and 2 people, one who loves activity and second who will get forced to it: who do you think will achieve more?

I honestly am questioning you thinking my depth of analysis is shallow, like the above it seems to me like you're not understanding my point. I am not trying to show I'm a superior human being, otherwise I would use big words to make myself sound more knowledgeable, point is, I'm not trying to argue with you, just wanting you to at least take in some of what I am saying. You seem to be talking about someone being forced to do something, and not succeeding in it, whereas I'm talking about when you want to do something, you gotta train which isn't always very fun. You can see what I was trying to say by my example of Muhammad Ali's quote. He certainly loved boxing, but he hated training, and that's what I'm trying to say.


No, not necessarily. The misconception of fun makes you improve faster lies by the fact that people think its logical that fun improves learning speed directly. It doesn't. What it does is elevate motivation and concentration, the latter is the real requirement to speed learning. Why is it that taking breaks between practises is considered the best way to improve? Its because of concentration.

What you said about the test, yes it's true, if all other factors remain constant, the guy with more fun will improve faster. But what if I told the other guy I will kill him if he doesn't beat the other guy, he will focus more, he will not waste any time. Some of you might say, hey he is going to be frustrated, which will reduce hisbabiloty to learn, ill say no. When under threats like these, adrenaline comes into play. You start reacting faster, muscles become faster due to increased blood flow, you enter deep breathing, allowing more oxygen to be taken on and used by the muscle. Basically you go into superman mode. Disclaimer, this is not the same adrenaline level as close to FCing something, it is much more intense due to it being life threatening. Sure enough, he may not like osu, but at the end of the day he is going to learn faster.

So what, when the hell is that gonna happen?
My point is, you're disregarding all the other emotions a human can exhibit. Love, fear, anger. These emotions are all more intense then fun, resulting in more concentration.

But that is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about training rather than having fun. Surely if you can enjoy training, you will be a prodigy, like your example, Mozart and Chopin.

Small story from my own life - my parents wanted me to be a "psychologist" since as a kid i had wide open mind. In 1989 i got "exposed" to first computer, programming in basic. You know why i lied to parents that "i am learning to be a psychologist"? To indirectly force them as a kid to buy me new and new and new computer each 2-3 years and focus on this what i really like - software engineering. At the end, i have 2 University Grade Engineer titles in both - Software Engineering and Network Security and do not what my parents wanted but what i love.

I saw people who went to learn software engineering atracted by money - while for me learning C++/Python in University was pretty much - look for some "black bible", spend 2-3 hours on code examples, go play games, for them who went "for money" as they climed it was whole days and nights of learning.

Seeing this does make me feel somewhat sorry for you, which is probably the emotion you were trying to give to me, and I do see where you're coming from but I want to say that this is not the same case. And the reason I say that is because a job choice, and job choices generally you only get 1 degree, you would obviously want something you love. For games its different, you are not bound by something, you're not forced to pick, therefore you have the option to try everything, allowing you to fall in love with something you hated at the start.

TL;DR: Your whole point is invalid when you try to prove something without proper understanding of a problem and solutions for it. Answer often is different when you handle problem stright away and split it into pieces and analyze deeply from the core.

RaneFire wrote:

I think the real point of "play for fun" is actually a caution to players not to get hung up on internet fame, and also specifically because this game does not attract any significant prize money reward. But playing for fun can include strategies to improve. Who says they can't? You just do both at the same time and avoid strategies which are genuinely unpleasant (not the result of mistakes).

It would be fallacious to assume that fun is the only way to motivate yourself to improve, because there are plenty other ways to motivate yourself (internet fame for example, and... potentially winning some money). Granted, if you are really good at osu!, twitch.tv can earn you money from supporters, but I'm not too clued up on the statistics. The only problem is that you have to be extremely good... one of the few, or even just the best.

I know why I spent my time playing certain games at a young age, and it wasn't because it was fun. For many of the games, it was fun. But for the main game I played, it was because I was delusional. Internet fame sucks. It is a delusion and it is transient. When life catches up, only a few will care who you were 3 years later (in which case they probably fall into the "friends" category), because even average players will have surpassed you, unless you are the absolute best at the game by a good few light years.

In same the way as a pyramid scheme would earn people money, so does gaming. Only the top of the top of the 1% make anything worthwhile. It is better to just enjoy all the benefits of life and focus on getting a job as your primary source of income, instead of thinking you can make it as a gamer because you "enjoy" it. Sure, it is more fun than working, no argument there, but it is not a good investment of your time for the long term, considering just how much you have to play/practice that ONE game to get anywhere. Diversity is fun too, and so is being social. That's not to assume anyone isn't doing those last two, but if you are really driven to be the best at a game, there is a good chance you aren't.

You know what's a really good investment to start young? Physical training. You will take your health for granted until it goes pear shaped, not purely because you sat on your ass all day as a kid, but because you didn't use your healthiest and most developmental years wisely. Kudos to some of the pro gamers who have their shit together, though.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Really well though out posts by Taiga N0thingSpecial and Ranefire, they were very interesting to read.

Blitzfrog wrote:

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

If results are needed as soon as possible then pushing through training even when its not fun will lead to results faster, however the efficiency of the training diminishes the longer you go. Putting in more hours is one way to get results but enjoying the game or getting more motivated or engaged is another way. If you decide to put in more training be careful doing this as it can lead to RSI or burnout.

You're right, extensive training is diminishing and may give you RSI. Which is why it should be paired up with breaks.
As to your idea of pairing training with fun, I think if training is fun, you're either doing it wrong, or you're a weirdo, and have seen some people enjoy playing scales.

You're right, most players come here due to the frustration they have , and meming at them when they're frustrated is just not helpful (unless they posted in OT which I do troll them). Which is why I kinda decided to put this thought out there in the first place.

N0thingSpecial gave a reason to why people do this, its because many of the posters who ask for help have done no research at all or want results without putting effort in themselves. Why bother helping people who barely help themselves?

Even if you do give a well though out detailed answer, a person like that is unlikely to even read the advice so its a waste of time.

On a side note since you have made a decently though out post and are engaged in discussion people will want to give you good advice rather than just say play more.

Just want to clarify, I'm not looking for advices on becoming better, I was just giving people my idea. As to what you're saying, surely of the massive amount of people posting here, there has to be that one boob which doesn't even know what to look for, and doesn't know what to improve on. So the natural question to ask is how to improve? And then i see a bunch of memes down there it really makes me sad you know.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Yes but you yourself even said we as a community can't define what's fun for what player then why are you even bringing up the discussion knowing entirely fun is a state of mind, what's left of this discussion is that "I think training is important even if it's not fun" well duh that's what life is about in the first place, I play the piano I know this shit, I have a job and I know this shit, if you think it's important enough you would turn any negative pressure like training, practice, boring repetitive routine, into something that motivates you to become better.

My point is bringing this up is pointless cause if the player don't think this game is important or fun to start with then wats the point into pushing them to do training

The group people who constantly post "hur dur how do I improve" ot anything vague don't actually give a shit about their improvement, if they did they would've identify the problem and look up Google or ask for specificity in their thread. Bottom line is that if they give half assed discussion topics we give half assed but truthful answer like "plz enjoy game" or "play more"