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Why authentic maps are better than non-authentic

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mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201
Let B be the set of all beatmaps.
Let A be the set of all authentic beatmaps.
Let X be the set of everything bad that can be done in a map.

Let G be the set of all good (perfect) maps, ie. G = B ∖ X
Let Y be some subset of X such that A = B ∖ Y

Since X ∪ Y = X,
we have A ∩ G = (B ∖ Y) ∩ (B ∖ X) = B ∖ X = G.

Let A' be the set of all non-authentic beatmaps, ie. A' = B ∖ A
Then A' ∩ A = (B ∖ A) ∩ A = ∅.
→ A' ∩ (A ∩ G) = ∅
→ A' ∩ G = ∅

Therefore no non-authentic map exists in the set of good (perfect) maps.

PROVE ME WRONG

Arguments that no such set Y exists must be justified with concrete examples.

First person to refute me gets a 1 month subscription.
Last edited by mm201 , edited 1 time in total.
Jarby
2,963 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby
The proof is in the pudding.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201
Tigerlily ∩ X is a very small set but non-empty.

The size of the set, Map ∩ X, can be approximated by how authentic it is.

Corollary: ∃ M₁∈A, M₂∈A' | M₁ ∩ X > M₂ ∩ X
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
Authenticity != Perfection
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201
Authenticity ⊇ Perfection
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
i don't agree with the logic in the formula, therefor it does not matter.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
If A were defined as "maps with blue combo colours", would this proof not still hold?

Better yet, if it were defined as "non-authentics"? ^_^
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201
In both cases, no such set Y exists.

For the record, maps with blue is almost a subset of authentics. I think I'm the only mapper who uses custom colours in authentics and I don't want to cite my own maps.

Come on, even I can find proof that Y doesn't exist for authentics either. >,<;
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
Bad maps suck and good maps don't.
NotShinta
1,021 posts
Joined September 2009
NotShinta
Bad maps suck and good maps suck too.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

MMgay wrote:

Let X be the set of everything bad that can be done in a map.
I assume this means "Let X be the set of all bad maps." This makes G = X'.

MMgay wrote:

Let Y be some subset of X such that A = B ∖ Y
This means, given Z = ~Y (∴ Z includes a subset of G if Y is non-empty):
A = B & ~Y = B & Z
and therefore B & ~Z = ~A = (a subset of G) | (a subset B).

Thus, ~A (A') includes both good and bad maps.

Sorry I'm using a programming syntax. I can't read math. ;P
nooodl_old
73 posts
Joined August 2008
nooodl_old

MetalMario201 wrote:

G = B ∖ X.
G = A set of beatmaps ∖ A set of mistakes
wait, what
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201

strager wrote:

This means, given Z = ~Y (∴ Z is a subset of G):
By this, Z is not a subset of G, G is a subset of Z.

(~Y would include all maps in X not in Y PLUS all maps in G.)

nooodl wrote:

MetalMario201 wrote:

G = B ∖ X.
G = A set of beatmaps ∖ A set of mistakes
wait, what
Too lazy to define a map from beatmaps onto mapping techniques. Not the answer I'm looking for.

Edit: Super-lazy fix: Define a beatmap as the union of all techniques used within.
Last edited by mm201 , edited 1 time in total.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

MetalMario201 wrote:

strager wrote:

This means, given Z = ~Y (∴ Z is a subset of G):
By this, Z is not a subset of G, G is a subset of Z.

(~Y would include all maps in X not in Y PLUS all maps in G.)
Yeah; I fixed that. "Typo." Doesn't change my logic.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201

strager wrote:

Yeah; I fixed that. "Typo." Doesn't change my logic.
Still bad. ~Y is a bigger set than Z so B & ~Y doesn't equal B & Z
The_Priest_In_Yellow
319 posts
Joined September 2008
The_Priest_In_Yellow
You know, on a more serious note.

No matter what you say, what your arguments may be, what your agenda is.
It's all going down the toilet.

Because it's a joke really. You need to see the comedy in this.

Whether it be maps, administration or the community identity.

It's quite laughable.

Sit back and enjoy the fireworks.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201
Finally someone gets it
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

The_Priest_In_Yellow wrote:

You know, on a more serious note.

No matter what you say, what your arguments may be, what your agenda is.
It's all going down the toilet.

Because it's a joke really. You need to see the comedy in this.

Whether it be maps, administration or the community identity.

It's quite laughable.

Sit back and enjoy the fireworks.
Y'know...
This is all true. The community has gone down the drain. A lot.

However, I have to disagree with the topic title.
I don't really like the style of authentic maps.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

MetalMario201 wrote:

strager wrote:

Yeah; I fixed that. "Typo." Doesn't change my logic.
Still bad. ~Y is a bigger set than Z so B & ~Y doesn't equal B & Z
I just said Z = ~Y. How can B & ~Y not equal B & Z?
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201

strager wrote:

I just said Z = ~Y. How can B & ~Y not equal B & Z?
Your posts are hard to read. I guess you're defining ~Y as B - Y? ~Z = B - Z? So Z is the set of good techniques and permissible bad techniques.

So ~Z is just Y again.

I see nothing that leads to your last conclusion written there.

Also in ZFC, there is no complete set, so please don't use inverse sets without any parent set to qualify them with. (ie. P & ~Q bad. P - Q good.)
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

MetalMario201 wrote:

[Also in ZFC, there is no complete set, so please don't use inverse sets without any parent set to qualify them with. (ie. P & ~Q bad. P - Q good.)
I don't know math, sorry.

And I'm too lazy to look at what I wrote and make sure I didn't miss anything.

Whatever.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201
Answer:

Consider tasteful streams.
They should be an element of G, since they are good.
Then they are not an element of X.
Since Y ⊆ X, streams are not an element of Y.

By definition of authenticity, Streams are not an element of B.
Since they are an element of A, they must also be an element of Y.

Not both of these statements can be true, therefore no Y satisfying them can exist.

Repeat the same process for any other legitimate mapping technique which is non-authentic.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
But that's what I said. =[
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
This map is my favorite map, but it's only authentic-style and not an actual authentic map:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/8229

However, this map has many of the elements of authentic maps.

Therefore, authentic style = authentic > maps that follow most authentic rules but not 100% authentic-style > truly non-authentic

...Why did I provide a counter-argument to my argument?
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
hempel's raven but with math

i am impressed good sir
Lesjuh
Elite Mapper
2,442 posts
Joined October 2008
Lesjuh
Let's make osu better and all map authentic! Oh jeepers symmetrical sliders and patterns!
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,848 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY

MetalMario201 wrote:

Let Y be some subset of X such that A = B ∖ Y
Assuming that there still are bad things that can be done in a map that hasn't been done yet (in other words, assuming that B does not completely cover X)



A Vann diagram like the above can be drawn. (It is obvious that A is a subset of B, since B is the set of ALL beatmaps.)

Here, you can easily see that no subset of X (call it Y) can satisfy A = B ∖ Y

Since there are elements of B that X does not cover, it is impossible for a subset of X to leave only A after being subtracted from B.

The result is the same when you assume that B does completely cover X. It is by common sense that X cannot completely cover B.

Therefore, no such subset Y can exist.




In this argument I have assumed that A ∖ B is the same as A - B. If that is not the case, please kindly explain what the symbol ∖ means, and I will have another go at the problem. Being an Asian, I've never seen the symbol ∖ being used










EDIT : Oh shit I didn't notice there was a page 2. Damnit.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
Topic Starter
mm201
For our purposes, B is the universe, so X is a subset of B. Your logic is half-true, but it only proves X is a subset of B, not that no Y exists.

lesjuh wrote:

Let's make osu better and all map authentic! Oh jeepers symmetrical sliders and patterns!
Stop trolling my trolling dammit WROOOARR!

...a happier place for everyone~
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
Wait what the hell is this.
NotShinta
1,021 posts
Joined September 2009
NotShinta

lesjuh wrote:

Let's make osu better and all map authentic! Oh jeepers symmetrical sliders and patterns!
Yes.
nardii
271 posts
Here since the beginning
nardii

Ekaru wrote:

authentic style = authentic > maps that follow most authentic rules but not 100% authentic-style > truly non-authentic
authentic style = true?
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J

MetalMario201 wrote:

Authenticity ⊇ Perfection

MetalMario201 wrote:

Stop trolling my trolling dammit WROOOARR!
Is this ironic? I think it's ironic. Yeah, it's totally ironic.

I'm almost thinking about changing the "Weeaboo vs. West" theme in this to "Authentic vs. non-authentic". Holy crap, guys, come on. All kinds of maps are good.
The_Priest_In_Yellow
319 posts
Joined September 2008
The_Priest_In_Yellow

K2J wrote:

Holy crap, guys, come on. All kinds of maps are bad.

K2J wrote:

Holy crap, guys, come on. All kinds of maps are.

K2J wrote:

Holy crap, guys, come on. All kinds of maps.
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
Your point in your repeated misquoting of me is not self-evident and qualifies as non-sequitur.
The_Priest_In_Yellow
319 posts
Joined September 2008
The_Priest_In_Yellow 
AND YOU'RE A FUCKING RETARD IF YOU'RE MISSING MY GOD DAMNED POINT.

HOLY SHIT, THERE ARE MAPS. A LOT OF THEM ARE BAD, A LOT OF THEM ARE GOOD.

WHICH MEANS THAT.

OH YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS.

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF MAPS HOLY SHIT.

Have fun.
/Tepes, Vlad.
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
Usually, when people misquote/reduce quote, they're highlighting a flaw, not pointing out something that's already known to all parties involved and isn't worth saying. My mistake for thinking I made a mistake.

And wow, was my statement so grating as to take you down to block-text name-calling? Chill out.
The_Priest_In_Yellow
319 posts
Joined September 2008
The_Priest_In_Yellow
>My face

Wojjan
806 posts
Joined August 2008
Wojjan

K2J wrote:

come on All kinds of maps.
aRiskOfRain
osu! Alumni
1,367 posts
Joined June 2009
aRiskOfRain
whatisthisshit.jpg
Arusha Shuna
1,793 posts
Joined August 2009
Arusha Shuna
New beatmap ranking criteria : must be authentic style
Pokebis
2,047 posts
Joined April 2008
Pokebis
dickcocks
mekadon_old
mekadon_old
I'm still going for perfection rather than authenticity =[
Making people enjoy the map is more better than making it look damn fucking authentic. What is the main thing you guys even want to imply?
NotShinta
1,021 posts
Joined September 2009
NotShinta
Authenticity makes the map seem closer to perfection.
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
It depends on how you define perfection.
Xgor
Elite Mapper
2,534 posts
Joined April 2009
Xgor

K2J wrote:

It depends on how you define perfection.
aRiskOfRain
osu! Alumni
1,367 posts
Joined June 2009
aRiskOfRain

Arusha Shuna wrote:

New beatmap ranking criteria : must be authentic style
Support.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
Tell me what's fun about this authentic map then maybe i'll believe you.

Also, your argument doens't include "fun" so i can't take it seriously.
[/seriousanswer]

Too bad fun cannot be defined objectively, kinda like "perfection".
Kecco
908 posts
Joined September 2009
Kecco
Still don't understanding.

The_Priest_In_Yellow wrote:

K2J wrote:

Holy crap, guys, come on. All kinds of maps are bad.

K2J wrote:

Holy crap, guys, come on. All kinds of maps are.

K2J wrote:

Holy crap, guys, come on. All kinds of maps.
Wut?
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

Kecco wrote:

Still don't understanding.

Wut?

What's wrong with that sentence?
mekadon_old
mekadon_old

Natteke desu wrote:

Kecco wrote:

Still don't understanding.

Wut?

What's wrong with that sentence?
[profile="K2J"]Usually, when people misquote/reduce quote, they're highlighting a flaw, not pointing out something that's already known to all parties involved and isn't worth saying.[/profile]
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
Everyone stop quoting me or I'll get even more sarcastically-confused.
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