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DragonForce - The Last Journey Home

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Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven

Jenny wrote:

Also, #modhelp pointed something out:...

The discussions that came from this map is the reason that ended up getting reviewed and posted, haha.

Anyway, I have talked with Jenny a little bit on IRC and we will do a full discussion when we can. To reiterate: the DQ issue is the transition to the long slow slider - everything else is tertiary.

A good solution was posted earlier by UndeadCapulet about stacking, or you can look into using a gradual slowdown instead of sticking to .75x during the part before the slider so that you don't have such a drastic speed change.
xch00F
240 posts
Joined October 2012
xch00F
stepmania detected

[ S a k u r a ] wrote:

Fun doesn't always means good
can you please elaborate on this
I play mania exclusively but last time I checked, osu! and all of the modes allowed are part of a game: the main goal of a game is to have fun
by saying "fun doesn't always mean good," you are implying that "fun could possibly mean bad"
Last edited by Garven , edited 1 time in total.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

[ S a k u r a ] wrote:

Fun doesn't always means good, please stay on topic and provide map related suggestions that will be helpful for mapper to improve his/her map
and good is subjetive, anyways I really don't see any problem with that slider it fit really well what jenny is trying to do, maybe change the slider shape to a one that let the player know about it (just as suggestion).
deathmarc4
55 posts
Joined November 2013
deathmarc4
Have people forgotten how to read sv? I've gotten jipped by other maps with "random" slow sliders (cough wahrheit cough) enough times to learn when to expect them and how to deal with them. It's just another aspect of reading the map.
Litharrale
705 posts
Joined August 2013
Litharrale

deathmarc4 wrote:

Have people forgotten how to read sv? I've gotten jipped by other maps with "random" slow sliders (cough wahrheit cough) enough times to learn when to expect them and how to deal with them. It's just another aspect of reading the map.
Exactly this.

People forget that reading is comprised of completely separate components. Humans are exceptional at recognizing patterns and we rely on audio and visual cues to deduce these patterns. I played through this map with no clue on where the slider would be, how fast the SV was set at or even what shape the slider was. When it came up I didn't break on it.

Why is this?

When I came to the aforementioned slider I had already subconsciously inferred that this was a slow section. I could understand the QATs reasoning if the slider was immediately after the fast streaming portion earlier in the song, but it's not. Instead it comes after long slow sliders and notes spaced so far apart, it's the equivalent of a 3-4 star song.
SPOILER
Look at this!

Not to mention that you have to be moving very quickly to break on the slider. Faster even than the previous sliders. So even if you assumed that the SV on this slider was equivalent to the SV on the previous sliders, you won't break. If you do, then you probably shouldn't be playing this song with your poor reading skills. It's obvious instantly that the slider is incredibly slow and the 'break circumference' is big enough so you have just enough time to realize this.

SPOILER

Check this picture out. Look how far my cursor is away from the center of the slider circle and I still haven't ruined my combo. If you broke on this slider, you're either not paying enough attention or your reading is poor. So poor that you probably shouldn't be playing this song. I'm absolutely certain that anyone who can pass the extreme streams in this song can has a reaction time of less than a second.

Beatmapping has evolved in the past few years significantly and will certainly continue too, but disqualifications like this only hinder this evolution to a point that mapping now seems so uniform and invariable that it's almost impossible to tell the difference between mappers. Especially for a player like me who's not into the mapping community. I strongly disagree with this disqualification as it ruins the character of the map and corrupts the mappers style. With a DQ like this, I'm sure that Jenny won't try anything similar to this in the future which is sad. It's a real shame that mappers these days are terrified to try anything new because of the looming force with trigger fingers that we call QATs. I dream of a day when I don't open up /r/osugame to "X has been disqualified!". With 11 ranked beatmaps, I'm sure Jenny knows what she is doing.
Last edited by Litharrale , edited 1 time in total.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
Jenny

Ash Marley wrote:

Neither is your 1 example of your personal experience then.
How about 95% of the testplays I requested and watched, then? :p

Also, every player has bad days or can have misguided assumptions about map and song every once in a while, don't make it seam like WWW is an exception from that because frankly, he isn't. His error rate is really low but it definitely is still there, as we can see from examples like these.

Plus, mind you, how frequent do these scenarios appear? Not very often tbh, considering most maps (and modplays) these days are mostly aimed at high speed rather than go in detail to the song's happenings. This is a non-osu!stereotypical song, so it is also to be played and viewed as such; if you slip back to jumpspam TV Size habits midway through even though the map should have told you better than doing that at this point, you sadly just failed at keeping your composure, which is a key part of playing lengthy maps.



reply to Litharrale, just clarification / not relevant to discussion

Litharrale wrote:

With a DQ like this, I'm sure that Jenny won't try anything similar to this in the future which is sad.
Sounds like you don't know who I am - just about everything I touch is "too far for it's times"/"out of the box"/"awkward" and it generally results in a shitstorm or DQ, or at least when I don't pick a very plain song to map :p


Litharrale wrote:

I dream of a day when I don't open up /r/osugame to "X has been disqualified!". With 11 ranked beatmaps, I'm sure Jenny knows what he/she is doing.
She, name and profile should clarify that :V
Ranked beatmaps don't really mean much, considering some people still don't understand the concept and active-passive hitsounding after ranking 20-100 mapsets; it's more about continuously working to improve on what you're doing and actively seeking discussion and better solutions than what you already have (even if it may work "well enough"), which I've been trying to do for the past four years, and that's the key to this- it's not 11 ranked mapsets assigned to my name, it's me having mapped over 400 difficulties and consistently trying to outdo myself and make as muich sense in what I put in them as possible.

Just wanted to clarify those things, no personal offense implied.
Xantaria
274 posts
Joined July 2013
Xantaria
I'm soooo sad right now.
Manysi
336 posts
Joined July 2014
Manysi
02:45:667 (3) - is there anything here?
Avishay
1,250 posts
Joined April 2013
Avishay
Do not manually edit anything in an .osu file that cannot be changed through the Editor. The only exceptions are .osu-specific storyboards, slider velocity multipliers and skin-related options such as SliderBorder and SliderTrackOverride. If non-standard slider velocity multipliers are used, they must be announced in the beatmap description during the modding process.
from https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_Criteria

If non-standard slider velocity multipliers are used, they must be announced in the beatmap description during the modding process.
If I might add:
@ 06:42:455 and 06:42:555 - Either delete both inherited points or you might have messed up their placements.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
Jenny

Sailexk wrote:

02:45:667 (3) - is there anything here?
exaggerating e-guitar, it basically goes da-dadada-da da-da (1-234-5 6-7) if that makes any sense; listen for it and you will see :p
J1NX1337
248 posts
Joined February 2014
J1NX1337
I think that correctly reading SV changes is a matter of skill, not so much of mapping.
However, I do understand that a sudden SV change, with no foreshadowing in the song and/or note placement, is unfair, but I don't think it was really enough to DQ this, especially since it was argued that there were significant elements in the song to allow this.
Avishay
1,250 posts
Joined April 2013
Avishay
THIS MAP HAS A SLOW SLOW SLIDER BECAUSE TRAINSQUEAK
Choo choo!
Viun
147 posts
Joined December 2011
Viun
00:13:418 (1) -
ac8129464363
1,566 posts
Joined October 2013
ac8129464363
you know you can just give the code for the slider right
Low Combo FC
10 posts
Joined September 2013
Low Combo FC
This DQ was probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in this entire game..
It was obviously passible to pass as well as get FC on..
I know that the slider wasn't quite correct but still, it has been already S'ed with HR and it was the highest pp play.. (considering legit plays only)
I really hope it will get back into the game soon because it was real fun to play and.. RIP _index Q_Q
Viun
147 posts
Joined December 2011
Viun

deetz wrote:

you know you can just give the code for the slider right
:?: :?: :?:
Kiyohime
34 posts
Joined December 2014
Kiyohime

Litharrale wrote:

It's a real shame that mappers these days are terrified to try anything new because of the looming force with trigger fingers that we call QATs.
yes we can't - wh went through a similar experience, it's been getting ridiculous for awhile now.
DeletedUser_3641262
DeletedUser_3641262
Just add to the title "TV Size" and it will be ranked in no time.
In all seriousness, the slider is very readable in my eyes. Such a massive slider cannot possibly be with high SV at this part of the song, so it makes sense for it to be there music wise (big epic slowdown) and map wise (many slow sliders before that give a sense of reaching a conclusion in a stop of a sort).
Alisson
23 posts
Joined December 2013
Alisson
People are going to stop trying fcs on recently ranked maps. I can't imagine the frustration of losing that quantity of pps (index).

I know maybe less than 1% of active players have been hardly affected because of this, but I don't think they should be ignored.

DQing a map looks something trivial, it shouldn't be that easy to disqualify a song, it should need at least the mapper agreement, or maybe the top 50 in current global ranking. Yes, I know this would makes DQing harder to happen, but that's the point, so people would think twice before qualifying a map.

DQing a map should be rarity, an exception.
Jerome
96 posts
Joined October 2013
Jerome
deleted
Last edited by Jerome , edited 1 time in total.
Midget
41 posts
Joined March 2014
Midget

Alisson Siri wrote:

People are going to stop trying fcs on recently ranked maps. I can't imagine the frustration of losing that quantity of pps (index).

I know maybe less than 1% of active players have been hardly affected because of this, but I don't think they should be ignored.

DQing a map looks something trivial, it shouldn't be that easy to disqualify a song, it should need at least the mapper agreement, or maybe the top 50 in current global ranking. Yes, I know this would makes DQing harder to happen, but that's the point, so people would think twice before qualifying a map.

DQing a map should be rarity, an exception.
It's their choice in the first place to fc a QUALIFIED map. After all it is clearly written that scores can wipe once in a while.
John Cena
37 posts
Joined July 2013
John Cena
Jenny is the goddess of long maps,

holy shit this is awesome!
Alisson
23 posts
Joined December 2013
Alisson

Midget wrote:

Alisson Siri wrote:

People are going to stop trying fcs on recently ranked maps. I can't imagine the frustration of losing that quantity of pps (index).

I know maybe less than 1% of active players have been hardly affected because of this, but I don't think they should be ignored.

DQing a map looks something trivial, it shouldn't be that easy to disqualify a song, it should need at least the mapper agreement, or maybe the top 50 in current global ranking. Yes, I know this would makes DQing harder to happen, but that's the point, so people would think twice before qualifying a map.

DQing a map should be rarity, an exception.
It's their choice in the first place to fc a QUALIFIED map. After all it is clearly written that scores can wipe once in a while.
You're right.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Blue Dragon wrote:

I'm usually alright with unranking maps but this one was the most unnecessary unrank ever, and you even made up 'additional comments' that wouldn't improve the map in any way just so you could back up the reason that "this map needs improvement"?

geez..
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
Jenny
Uploaded alternative ending to the guitar solo as talked through on IRC with _index and [HDHR]; the added loopiness and 40% increased SV should help with readability since it adds a bit of a visual hold element to the slider.




^this is HR
Last edited by Jenny , edited 1 time in total.
_index
336 posts
Joined January 2011
_index
irc log about that slider
SPOILER
2015-04-15 17:19 Jenny: boop
2015-04-15 17:19 _index: boop
2015-04-15 17:19 Jenny: mind giving some input on an alternative ending to the guitar solo atm?
2015-04-15 17:20 _index: i just woke up
2015-04-15 17:20 _index: but ill try
2015-04-15 17:20 Jenny: I mean just look at it in edit :p
2015-04-15 17:20 Jenny: should be sufficient
2015-04-15 17:20 _index: yeah sec
2015-04-15 17:20 Jenny: ACTION is editing [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/416021 DragonForce - The Last Journey Home [Legend]]
2015-04-15 17:20 Jenny: uploaded two other diffs
2015-04-15 17:20 _index: what timing
2015-04-15 17:20 Jenny: the only difference is the last two combos before the slider
2015-04-15 17:21 _index: oh okay, let me redl then
2015-04-15 17:21 Jenny: 06:00:355 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1) - these
2015-04-15 17:21 _index: uhm still one diff
2015-04-15 17:21 _index: even after redl
2015-04-15 17:21 _index: wtf thats weird
2015-04-15 17:22 Jenny: wat
2015-04-15 17:22 Jenny: I'll upload a zip with the diff files
2015-04-15 17:22 _index: nvm im already redling again
2015-04-15 17:22 _index: should hepl
2015-04-15 17:22 _index: oh OKAY
2015-04-15 17:22 _index: fuck that
2015-04-15 17:22 Jenny: ?!
2015-04-15 17:22 _index: tried to dl from web
2015-04-15 17:23 _index: still no new diffs, uhm
2015-04-15 17:23 Jenny: http://www.mediafire.com/download/gix3mc9mef51mmn/DragonForce+-+The+Last+Journey+Home.rar - there, the two extra diffs
2015-04-15 17:23 Jenny: just extract into the folder
2015-04-15 17:23 _index: w8
2015-04-15 17:23 _index: i deleted it, and still no diffs after downloading from web
2015-04-15 17:23 _index: not even a main diff appears
2015-04-15 17:23 Jenny: :[
2015-04-15 17:23 _index: i guess i need to restart
2015-04-15 17:24 Jenny: if they still don't show up
2015-04-15 17:25 _index: no, thats okay now
2015-04-15 17:25 _index: relink time
2015-04-15 17:25 Jenny: 06:00:355 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1) -
2015-04-15 17:25 _index: 04:52:188 (15,16,1,2,3,4) - 
2015-04-15 17:25 _index: i just saw these
2015-04-15 17:25 Jenny: I don't like Garven's suggestion at all tbh :p
2015-04-15 17:25 _index: and i've remembered how hard it will be to refc lmao
2015-04-15 17:26 Jenny: you're welcome . 3.
2015-04-15 17:26 Jenny: dw it'll only be worth like 530pp or smth anyway, knowing osu
2015-04-15 17:26 _index: uhm
2015-04-15 17:26 _index: this slider is offscreen, isnt it?
2015-04-15 17:26 _index: in garven's one
2015-04-15 17:26 Jenny: Garven's? yes.
2015-04-15 17:26 Jenny: and everything before it is super ugly ; _ ;
2015-04-15 17:27 _index: yeah its somewhat close to each other
2015-04-15 17:27 Jenny: and 06:02:688 (3,4,5) - are not pressured at all even though they're important beats
2015-04-15 17:27 _index: thats weird
2015-04-15 17:28 _index: ACTION is editing [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/680394 DragonForce - The Last Journey Home [alternative]]
2015-04-15 17:28 _index: this one i like more
2015-04-15 17:28 _index: even more than old tho
2015-04-15 17:28 Jenny: pretty much
2015-04-15 17:28 Jenny: me too :p
2015-04-15 17:29 _index: well
2015-04-15 17:29 _index: one thing that i might advice about this fucking place
2015-04-15 17:29 _index: is to make a break instead of slider
2015-04-15 17:29 _index: if someone says anything about it again
2015-04-15 17:29 Jenny: NOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNONPO ; _ ;
2015-04-15 17:30 _index: i understand but come on
2015-04-15 17:30 Jenny: breaktime doesn't fit the tension at all
2015-04-15 17:30 _index: it doesnt ruins everything tho
2015-04-15 17:30 _index: looks a bit weird
2015-04-15 17:30 _index: but still better than those offscreen sliders
2015-04-15 17:30 _index: just like last way to fix everything Kyappa
2015-04-15 17:30 Jenny: I thought of maybe making the slider 0.15x or smth and adding a bit of a quirk to the start so you see that you have to hold it first
2015-04-15 17:31 Jenny: then you'd have enough time to get the SV change
2015-04-15 17:32 _index: uhm
2015-04-15 17:32 _index: w8 a sec
2015-04-15 17:33 _index: welp
2015-04-15 17:33 _index: i've tried to fit a triple right before slider
2015-04-15 17:33 _index: XD
2015-04-15 17:34 Jenny: wat
2015-04-15 17:34 Jenny: the song doesn't do that :[
2015-04-15 17:34 _index: yeah im retarded at morning, sry
2015-04-15 17:34 Jenny: [https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3015140 anyhow, something along these lines maybe]
2015-04-15 17:35 _index: but they still gonna brag about sv .osu changes
2015-04-15 17:35 _index: or not?
2015-04-15 17:35 Jenny: not really
2015-04-15 17:35 _index: hm
2015-04-15 17:35 Jenny: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/4010768/
2015-04-15 17:35 _index: in that case im okay
2015-04-15 17:36 _index: probably still can aim this with hr
2015-04-15 17:36 _index: but shit its gonna be hard XD
2015-04-15 17:42 Jenny: updating again
2015-04-15 17:42 Jenny: ..slowly
2015-04-15 17:43 _index: damn connections XD
2015-04-15 17:43 Jenny: k
2015-04-15 17:43 Jenny: done now
2015-04-15 17:43 _index: seems okay to me
2015-04-15 17:44 _index: maybe move it a bit down
2015-04-15 17:44 _index: as it may be offscreen after hr's vertical changes
2015-04-15 17:44 Jenny: huh?
2015-04-15 17:44 Jenny: lemme look at it in auto
2015-04-15 17:44 _index: kk
2015-04-15 17:44 _index: im not sure
2015-04-15 17:44 Jenny: I don't think it would be though
2015-04-15 17:44 Jenny: since it doesn't go out of the grid at the top
2015-04-15 17:45 _index: mm key
2015-04-15 17:45 _index: im terrible at modding stuff uknow, just sayin
2015-04-15 17:45 Jenny: well yeah, you don't have experience in it
2015-04-15 17:46 _index: :^)
2015-04-15 17:51 Jenny: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3015162
2015-04-15 17:52 _index: okay, nice
Dawns
215 posts
Joined July 2014
Dawns
I can see this getting a second shot. After having fiddled about in editor this feels a lot easier for the selective few. of you who seem to struggle to read a slider with a million slider ticks and forewarning. This new slider seems a lot easier. I'll fiddle about again tomorrow to see if there's a note visually appealing way of getting the same tension build up the old slider had whilst keeping it 'readable'. One thing I'm not a massive fan of is the SV I'd like a shorter slider with slower SV but I guess that'd be another DQ for old reason.

Anywho good job Jenny on fixing the slider, we spoke about it a little on Twitch earlier (Dawnsday) but if you don't mind I'd like to see if there's a better way of doing this tension build up slider. Good luck on Requalify. I'll edit update later if I find a nicer way (if you want one c:)
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Alternative plays fine. I guess you missed the part of my PM that explained that my suggestion was only for illustration and not a viable playable map (which was the entire thing minus the .osu link). Bold for emphasis.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
Jenny
Didn't think I'd have to mention that specifically to be fair; anyhow, I'll replace Legend then..?

..then again I was shitwastedly tired so I can't claim it was a very conscious thought in the first place
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
I was just going off your log with index, but whatever - fair enough. Go ahead and upload and BNs can move this forward again.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
Jenny
Uploaded [alternative] as [Legend] - let's go?
Kyubey
osu! Alumni
3,097 posts
Joined December 2012
Kyubey
1
Aka
1,777 posts
Joined January 2012
Aka
shine glorious we ride
##
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn
Gave some suggestions about Volume during a part where hitsounds where pretty much inaudible, but Jenny had to leave. So hold on before pushing this forward anymore lol.

06:40:355 - to 06:53:155 - needs a volume boost. Check it out yourself Aka/Kyubey and let me know.

Anyways, I'm assuming the letterbox in the breaks are intentional. But if you don't want it (because of SB), be sure to remove it.

that's all from me.
Kyubey
osu! Alumni
3,097 posts
Joined December 2012
Kyubey
I checked that part, since quiet notes follows vocals that pretty... I don't know what word to use, maybe "smooth", but if these notes will have loud feedback while playing, it can sound strange and not fitting the vocals. Notes that placed on loud music elements are loud and give proper feedback, but quiet ones can sound strange for me, if they will become loud too.
Aka
1,777 posts
Joined January 2012
Aka
uhm actually yeah, i agree about the volume boost suggestion tbh, but just for the vocals parts like these 06:41:555 (2,3,4) - 06:42:555 (5,6) - 06:47:955 (2,3,4,5) - . +~10% may be pretty much enough already, hum?
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
Jenny
Increased volume on the clicks by 5%, sliderticks and -ends by 2% (25% -> 30%, 13% -> 15%); don't want to boost this up too far but a little bit's fine with me.
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn
Thanks for moving it Mao.

Checked the volume, and I can hear the softs fine now. We removed the letterbox from the .osu file so it should be all set to go.


Re-Approved!
Smudge
49 posts
Joined June 2014
Smudge
Gratz on re-rank! :)
Infeh
Infeh
gratz on re-rank :)
Litharrale
705 posts
Joined August 2013
Litharrale
Gratz !
- Acay -
5 posts
Joined November 2014
- Acay -

Jerome wrote:

It would be nice if DQing was a rarity, but maps that don't follow the guidelines should indeed be disqualified.
Why exactly? Ridiculous "Guidelines" that cause quite literally every map that gets ranked these days to have a similar style shouldnt have to be followed.

It would be nice if people could look at the overall quality of a map instead of go "HEY!!1 that slider isnt in ze guidelines!"
Trosk-
Technical Support Team
5,795 posts
Joined October 2013
Trosk-
Summoning _index
Rockageek
125 posts
Joined June 2013
Rockageek

Trosk- wrote:

Summoning _index
done
talutocxu
24 posts
Joined April 2014
talutocxu
DQ again ??? =]]
gregest
809 posts
Joined February 2014
gregest
DQ reason:_index fc'd it with hr
Yohanes
1,285 posts
Joined February 2014
Yohanes
_can't _defeat _index
DarthDose
2 posts
Joined October 2012
DarthDose
Don't know what _index took, but somehow it made him a god of hr mod. This random climb a few weeks ago was quite hillarious and displayed how much of a good HR player he is as nearly ever play he has granting him PP is HR. Maybe went a bit offtopic, but hey, grats for re-qualifying, Jen, hope you'll make a lot more maps in the future, most of 'em are awesome. Still ya won't defeat _index as he fc's maps with HR most don't fc nomod. Guess this map will be subject to more controversies as we'll go on due to this unreal PP gain. Still think it's unreasonably high, maybe around 50-100 PP more then reasonable... w/e, keep on the good work, i hope to someday be able to even pass one of your Dragonforce maps :P
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
http://ask.fm/indexosu/answer/126519984111

EXTREME LUCK 2: 0.3% MORE ACCURACY EDITION
Trosk-
Technical Support Team
5,795 posts
Joined October 2013
Trosk-
1 day more
ClrSCR
39 posts
Joined March 2015
ClrSCR
Can who give me the link of the first background ?
Em xin cám ơn tks !
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