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[New Rule/Guideline] Intended usage of hitsounds

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Topic Starter
Lust
p/2285304

Bringing this back up since the previous proposition died. Recently I have seen more and more sliderslides abused in an unfitting manner and I'd like to see something done about it. For those who are unaware, let me give some basic information.

We all know what a hitsound is - its a sound that plays while an object is (continuously in the manner of a sliderslide/spinnerspin or not in the manner of a circle, sliderstart, etc). Continuous objects play continuous hitsounds, which are files that loop (continuously) until whatever contains the sound ends. On the flip side, singular sounds such as claps, whistles, and finishes play once and they are located on circles, slider stars, slider ends, slider repeats, slider ticks, and spinner ends. One sound is to be played only once, while the other is meant to be played continuously.

In some instances, the mapper chooses to implement a continuous hitsound but uses it in a fashion that makes it play like a singular hitsound. This can easily be avoided. Lets use the sliderslide as an example.
From the previous thread and internal discussions:
Easy ways to fix it
  1. Change the sliders into circles
  2. Reduce the slider's length and use a repeat where the hitsound should be
  3. Set the slidertick rate accordingly
  4. Storyboard the hitsounds

With a way to avoid this, we can make a proposal. Here are those's previous propositions:

Continuous hitsounds are not to be used as single hitsounds. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin are considered continuous hitsounds; their files are made in such a way that they play from beginning to end and loop as one continuous sound for the duration of the held object. Do not alter any section of a held object to play a single hitsound.

or

Single hitsounds are only to be used for non-held objects. Normal, whistle, finish, clap, and slider tick are considered single hitsounds; these sounds are played once when a circle, slider head, slider repeat, slider tail, slider tick, or spinner end is played. Do not alter a continuous hitsound file to play a single hitsound during held objects.

Of course, the wording can change at any time and can be included as a guideline if need be (if you can provide a good enough exception). Common sense is what prevails, and map-to-map basis viewpoints are always encouraged.

Discuss.

EDIT: Final proposition
Do not use sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Do not alter any section of a held object to play a single hitsound.
captin1
imo would be better off as a guideline. the main issue that has been stressed against this is when the hitsound gets cut off due to it being longer than the slider time given. however, in the case of certain hitsounds like many of the sharper snare or bass sounds, the sound is short enough that it ends before the slider does, making it sound normal. regardless of the "intended use" of them, when they are used in this manner they function and sound the same way as a single hitsound.

for an example, i recently bubbled a map which has this. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/113398

the mapper is choosing to follow the vocal sound with 1/1 sliders, and using tick rate 2 would be a bad choice since the intro of the song is in 1/3, so he used sliderbody hitsounds and they fit well enough for me.
those

captin1 wrote:

and using tick rate 2 would be a bad choice since the intro of the song is in 1/3
Then the correct path of action would have been

Lust wrote:

Reduce the slider's length and use a repeat where the hitsound should be
Replacing a sliderslide sound would mean you are ending the continuous sound that was meant to be played throughout the slider. In this case, if the sound wasn't meant to be played anymore, there is no reason for the slider to keep playing.
Kodora

those wrote:

Replacing a sliderslide sound would mean you are ending the continuous sound that was meant to be played throughout the slider. In this case, if the sound wasn't meant to be played anymore, there is no reason for the slider to keep playing.
Troughout specified section of the slider, please.
Topic Starter
Lust

Kodora wrote:

those wrote:

Replacing a sliderslide sound would mean you are ending the continuous sound that was meant to be played throughout the slider. In this case, if the sound wasn't meant to be played anymore, there is no reason for the slider to keep playing.
Troughout specified section of the slider, please.
I think you're missing the point here buddy - if you wanted to play a singular hitsound during a specified section of the slider, then why don't you map the rhythm with objects accordingly? those is correct, by replacing the continuous sliderslide which should be playing throughout the length of the slider, you have an interruption in the form of a singular hitsound which is set to a specific section of a sliderslide. If you wanted to accomplish this, you are most likely better off by mapping it to a singular hitsound object like a circle. If there is a sound that you want to map that starts during a slider, then the slider should not continue onwards past that point in the music.

I might've just took your message in a completely different context than what you intended it to be, but at least I'm getting my thoughts out there hehe
Sakura
If a regular (not tick) hitsound fits in the middle of a slider, then there's an issue with the existance of said slider.
Tari
Personally, I think all this does is limit creativity.

There a specific patterns and rhythms we believe express the music well, and if we like them and they fit well with the music why limit it? I mean hitsounds are suppose to go "along" with the rhythms we try to express. Don't get me wrong, It's always acceptable to do that because that way, you have hitsounds that are actually on an clickable object, But that's not the thing were aiming for.

How this connects to mapping? well what if a certain pattern fits the music well, but somewhere in that pattern a instrument sound we try to follow has a hitsound on it. Should we change the whole pattern to add just that 1 hitsound? I don't think so.

Sorry if I'm getting the "wrong" message here. Just expressing my views.
Kodora

Lust wrote:

I think you're missing the point here buddy - if you wanted to play a singular hitsound during a specified section of the slider, then why don't you map the rhythm with objects accordingly?
Because it doesn't always can be replaced nicely, especially while mapping easy/normal diffs. Sliders are not supposed to follow only single specified sound - ticksounds or sliderslide-sounds can be used as creative rhythm choice (or at least to keep clap-patterns consistent thought whole diff, considering song's rhythm and mapper's rhythm choice).

As long as it done correctly and fits the song well there is nothing wrong with it.
Topic Starter
Lust
In the case of lower difficulties, the slider tick can be set accordingly - I highly doubt you will be using 1/3 or 1/6 rhythms in an easy or normal so it works. I actually found sliderslide hitsounds to be worse off in lower difficulties since, more often than not, the mapper decides to use a strong singular hitsound which can confuse the player into releasing from the slider early. Lower diffs should be teaching the rudimentary elements of the game, not bamboozling the player with all these technical aspects.
Kodora

Lust wrote:

In case of lower difficulties, the slider tick can be set accordingly - I highly doubt you will be using 1/3 or 1/6 rhythms in an easy or normal so it works
Invalid argument, as tick rate 2, 3 or even 1 might be too noisy for a song, or song may switch between 1/3 and 1/4 rhythm so single tick rate 2 would be simple wrong.See this song as example

Lust wrote:

actually found sliderslide hitsounds to be worse off in lower difficulties since, more often than not, the mapper decides to use a strong singular hitsound which can confuse the player into releasing from the slider early.
Case & point. That's very depends on song's rhythm and mapper's rhythm choice. Specified issues may be easily fixed via modding process.

Lust wrote:

Lower diffs should be teaching the rudimentary elements of the game, not bamboozling the player with all these technical aspects.
There is nothing "bamboozling" - it was a common practice for ages, and it is only about quality of mapper's hitsounds work. Specified issues like missed strong beats should be fixed while modding.
jonathanlfj
If I'm not mistaken, storyboarding a singular hitsound achieves the same effect as a sliderslide sound playing as a singular hitsound. I wonder why people would choose to use sliderslides which have many problems in itself (refer to p/3614023) than using storyboarded samples which are much more extensive and flexible. Some may argue that disabling the storyboard will remove these intended hitsounds, but disabling map hitsounds result in the same thing, so there isn't much difference there.

If storyboarded hitsounds do work the way I imagine it to be, then we should encourage mappers to use that method instead of sliderslides.
those

Kodora wrote:

Specified issues like missed strong beats should be fixed while modding.
Precisely, but with the right solution (i.e. using any option listed in the first post of this thread), instead of a settlement - abusing sliderslides.
Kibbleru
i really don't understand what people try to achieve with these sliderslide hitsounds and storyboarded hitsounds.
DakeDekaane
I'm really against this kind of practice, for said reasons.

If a mapper needs a hitsound on certain beat, they can find a proper rhythm to match their hitsounding without the need of misusing hitsounds, or finding another way to hitsound; else they're hitsounding against their rhythm idea, which is wrong, as the map is meant to be played in certain way, but the hitsounding may mislead/confuse you.
Sonnyc
I guess the main point of this suggestion is to use the hitsound to the appropriate function. I'm nothing against to this purpose.
Bara-
Kinda agree
However, IMO, Using custom slidertick.wav should be okay
But it shouldn't be overused though
Topic Starter
Lust
Seems like the general consensus is for this proposal, is there anything anyone would like to add or can we get this moving?
Kibbleru

Lust wrote:

Seems like the general consensus is for this proposal, is there anything anyone would like to add or can we get this moving?
i dont think so, lets get this moving along q:
Topic Starter
Lust
After some discussion with various people, it has been decided that a simpler wording is needed (a more of a direct statement of a do/do not) so that this can be understood without any doubt from the community. I propose this as a rule:

Do not use sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Do not alter any section of a held object to play a single hitsound.
Stefan
Nothing wrong with the wording above.
Kodora
I still see zero reason for this to be completely disallowed as this still can be done in a proper way. There's absolutely no need to be "iron" rule for this.
Topic Starter
Lust
There is no "proper way" other than those listed in the OP. We have told you specifically how to deal with the situations you have mentioned so now they can be put into practice. If you would like, contact me ingame and I can go over with you the thoughts behind this proposition (and hopefully addition) to the RC in detail.

Edited the OP with the final proposition and removed a redundant word from it (not sure how that happened). Lets get this moving fellas
wcx19911123
the sliderticks sound always wired, so that's why people like to use sliderslide sounds
if you agree to use slidertick sounds, I don't see the difference in the sliderslide sounds. so I don't understand why one is ok while the other is not
Kodora

Lust wrote:

There is no "proper way" other than those listed in the OP. We have told you specifically how to deal with the situations you have mentioned so now they can be put into practice.
There is common practice with using sliderslide sounds, andthere's zero reason to completely disallow this.

1) Replacing with circles/repeats - you perfectly knowe that it's not always possible (especially on easiest diffs), see easiest diffs here as example.
2) Already replied about Tick Rate - 2 may be noisy/unfitting or simple wrong, depends on song's rhythm (1/3 parts sounds just wrong with tick rate 2)
3) Storyboarded hitsounds have one huge issue - unlike sliderslide sounds they still plays whenever player hits hitobject or not, so they may be way more confusing for players than actual sliderslide sounds.

Issues with sliderslide-sounds in most of cases is people "screwing" them (they goes looped or sounds at the wrong parts), and this should be fixed while modding process. Altering sliderslide sounds is a common mapping technique used here for ages, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it as long as it's done correctly. There's really absolute no valid reasons to enforce this to be unrankable, or can you please provide at least few of them?
Topic Starter
Lust
Everything you have stated already has an answer to in this thread, and in that of the previous. However, if you are still unsure let me break it down for you.

Kodora wrote:

There is common practice with using sliderslide sounds, andthere's zero reason to completely disallow this.
Common practice? I don't think so. Anyway, Dake has said it already, "If a mapper needs a hitsound on certain beat, they can find a proper rhythm to match their hitsounding without the need of misusing hitsounds, or finding another way to hitsound; else they're hitsounding against their rhythm idea, which is wrong, as the map is meant to be played in certain way, but the hitsounding may mislead/confuse you." Not only are there practical issues with using this method, but there are technical issues as well, which you have already stated (read p/3614023).

Kodora wrote:

1) Replacing with circles/repeats - you perfectly knowe that it's not always possible (especially on easiest diffs), see easiest diffs here as example.
This can be fixed with any of the other methods available.

Kodora wrote:

2) Already replied about Tick Rate - 2 may be noisy/unfitting or simple wrong, depends on song's rhythm (1/3 parts sounds just wrong with tick rate 2)

Lust wrote:

Reduce the slider's length and use a repeat where the hitsound should be

those wrote:

Replacing a sliderslide sound would mean you are ending the continuous sound that was meant to be played throughout the slider. In this case, if the sound wasn't meant to be played anymore, there is no reason for the slider to keep playing.
If its noisy or unfitting then you can also change the hitsound to whatever that fits it best or lower their volumes - if it is set correctly the slider ticks should hit the most repeated parts of the music anyway.

Kodora wrote:

3) Storyboarded hitsounds have one huge issue - unlike sliderslide sounds they still plays whenever player hits hitobject or not, so they may be way more confusing for players than actual sliderslide sounds.
I've never been a fan of storyboarded hitsounds either, but jonathanlfj brought up a good point about it earlier in the thread. Originally I wasn't going to add it to the list of solutions, but after asking around it seemed like it could be used as a viable option if chosen (although not recommended).

Kodora wrote:

Issues with sliderslide-sounds in most of cases is people "screwing" them (they goes looped or sounds at the wrong parts), and this should be fixed while modding process.

Yes, using any of the methods listed in the original post.

Kodora wrote:

Altering sliderslide sounds is a common mapping technique used here for ages, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it as long as it's done correctly. There's really absolute no valid reasons to enforce this to be unrankable, or can you please provide at least few of them?
People have been using this for ages (maybe?), but that doesn't mean it is right. There is no "done correctly" when it comes to this, I haven't seen one instance yet where an abused continuous hitsound cannot be replaced by one of the methods listed.
D33d
There needs to be more about this in good, official writing, because then there'd be no recourse for mappers who misuse samples. Hitsounding's part of the core experience, so it needs to relate to the music and the hitobjects used in a clear and distinct way. This needn't be up for discussion, but it will be anyway because this is osu!
Sakura
No people haven't been using sliderslide as hitsound for ages, they've been either A) Storyboarding hitsounds or B) replacing Slider tick hitsounds with normal hitsounds for specific slider ticks.
Loctav

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Do not use sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Do not alter any section of a held object to play a single hitsound.
those
Thanks for carrying on what I started. People just needed anyone but me telling them what is correct.
Kodora
I wonder why it was pushed forward without any proper discussion and with only arguments like "this is just correct"
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