[10:34:24] kriers: p/2388625
[10:34:34] kriers: I didn't want to start going on about FL being removed from the game
[10:34:41] kriers: however much I personally agree with you, Color
[10:34:48] Mr Color: oh god
[10:34:56] Mr Color: did I cause an argument to start?
[10:35:03] Mr Color: please tell me I didn't
[10:35:09] kriers: no, you didn't
[10:35:15] Mr Color: oh thank god
[10:35:22] kriers: but I just read your post
[10:35:50] Mr Color: yeah, that's pretty much how I've ever felt about FL
[10:36:20] Mr Color: I don't think anyone plays it to have fun rather than getting an inflated score
[10:36:40] kriers: the incentive is always the 12%, yes
[10:37:02] kriers: it's really a troll question to put imo
[10:37:19] kriers: because following common logic, there's no way we could possibly even consider FL
[10:37:38] Mr Color: the only American FL player I can think of is Lyby
[10:37:45] Syed Huq: excuse you
[10:37:48] Syed Huq: i play FL
[10:37:53] Mr Color: ...and Zexous
[10:38:01] kriers: heck even I can play FL
[10:38:02] Syed Huq:
[10:38:08] Mr Color: you're not american
[10:38:10] Mr Color: HA
[10:38:11] Syed Huq: are all your top scores FL
[10:38:14] Mr Color: okay but really though
[10:38:16] Syed Huq: how bout them apples huh
[10:38:28] Mr Color: FL is just a gameplay hindrance
[10:38:29] kriers: I don't need to FL to get PP
[10:38:30] kriers: hah
[10:38:32] Syed Huq: well my best FL plays aren't on my top ranks list so w/e
[10:38:45] Mr Color: I feel like it doesn't add a reasonable challenge like the other mods
[10:38:56] Syed Huq: that's what everyone who can't play it says
[10:39:12] Mr Color: even with that
[10:39:18] Mr Color: imagine if we did have FL maps
[10:39:22] Mr Color: who would pick them
[10:39:25] Mr Color: nobody
[10:39:26] Syed Huq: me
[10:39:28] Syed Huq: but
[10:39:33] Mr Color: you're not playing so ha
[10:39:33] Syed Huq: yeah i already agreed that
[10:39:39] Syed Huq: it would not be convenient for a standardized tourney
[10:39:46] kriers: in any case, the people benefiting from FL are too few
[10:39:50] Syed Huq: although i don't agree with the reasons everyone else has
[10:39:56] kriers: and the benefit would be a certain win
[10:40:06] Mr Color: I'm also completely inexperienced with FL and am unable to pick good maps for it
[10:40:11] Syed Huq: kriers is the first one
[10:40:14] Syed Huq: who has made a valid point
[10:40:15] kriers: it's pretty dumb when people can't stream slow and they start bitching about it
[10:40:18] kriers: but FL isn't the same thing
[10:40:19] Syed Huq: for the argument of keeping FL out
[10:40:24] Syed Huq: that is the first valid point i have seen
[10:40:43] Syed Huq: although
[10:40:49] Syed Huq: that can somewhat be applied to HR
[10:40:58] Syed Huq: if we ignore the fact that there are a lot more HR players
[10:41:03] kriers: for people not having reflexes
[10:41:10] Syed Huq: FL is reflex too
[10:41:15] Syed Huq: believe it or not it's not all memorization
[10:41:24] Mr Color: HR is more than just reading AR10, though
[10:41:34] kriers: sure it is, but even the best HR player struggle because the FL reflexes work differently
[10:41:38] Syed Huq: but if you can't read AR10
[10:41:44] Syed Huq: your HR game will not lift off
[10:41:53] Syed Huq: well
[10:41:55] Mr Color: same if you don't have good aim, or good accuracy.
[10:42:10] Syed Huq: but aim and accuracy are standardized skills
[10:42:20] kriers: those are the skills we give credit for
[10:42:50] Syed Huq: yea
[10:42:51] Mr Color: not being able to react quick enough, or correctly, will screw you over more than one'd think
[10:43:05] Syed Huq: exactly
[10:43:06] Syed Huq: but
[10:43:12] Syed Huq: reaction times are not the same as reading high AR
[10:43:35] Syed Huq: it's kind of like
[10:43:36] Mr Color: I don't know how everybody plays HR, but I think many players read off follow points?
[10:43:44] Syed Huq: the difference between reading high ARs on DT vs. HR
[10:43:50] kriers: the skill of playing HR is in any case much more common than being able to read FL
[10:43:51] Syed Huq: follow points?
[10:43:52] Syed Huq: AHAHAHAHAHAHA
[10:43:54] Syed Huq: wut
[10:43:59] Mr Color: it's true
[10:44:10] kriers: I read of follow points
[10:44:21] Syed Huq: fk u krayrs
[10:44:22] Mr Color: since they appear much before circles, it makes sense
[10:44:30] Syed Huq: well
[10:44:32] kriers: I use them to predict note placing
[10:44:34] Syed Huq: i can't read 9 on HR so
[10:44:34] Syed Huq: Syed Huq shrugs
[10:44:36] kriers: it's really useful for me
[10:44:54] kriers: relying on pure reflexes can also be done, but my performance gets worse
[10:44:54] Syed Huq: since we're kind of on the topic
[10:45:04] Syed Huq: i'm just gonna put in a random observation i've made
[10:45:12] Syed Huq: HR is easier on maps that flow
[10:45:16] Syed Huq: while FL is harder on it
[10:45:23] Mr Color: Do people not say that FL is just remembering the entire map?
[10:45:29] Syed Huq: it's
[10:45:30] Syed Huq: NOT
[10:45:30] Syed Huq: .
[10:45:32] Mr Color: I thought that was the entire thing about it
[10:45:40] Syed Huq: if i had to memorize entire maps
[10:45:44] Syed Huq: i'd have double my plays
[10:46:00] Syed Huq: as it is i already have to blow like 60~100 plays
[10:46:01] Mr Color: so it's just very quick reaction time that's needed?
[10:46:06] Syed Huq: not quick
[10:46:09] Syed Huq: consistent
[10:46:11] kriers: in any case FL is a solo mod imo
[10:46:12] Syed Huq: quick is for HR
[10:46:17] kriers: you don't see people ever using it in multi
[10:46:20] kriers: for good reasons
[10:46:20] Syed Huq: i do
[10:46:27] Syed Huq: not when i want to win though...
[10:46:30] Mr Color: I think FL is definitely not as much accessible
[10:46:32] Mr Color: as the other mods
[10:46:42] Syed Huq: subjective
[10:46:47] Mr Color: like, even if you don't extensively play HR/DT/HD you can still manage
[10:46:52] Syed Huq: tru
[10:46:55] Syed Huq: except for HR
[10:46:57] Mr Color: and for FL I feel that it's not the case
[10:47:18] Syed Huq: i feel like HD and DT
[10:47:22] Syed Huq: are the ones where you can still manage
[10:47:25] Syed Huq: based on just your core skills
[10:47:33] Syed Huq: but imo HR is just as specialized as FL
[10:47:36] Mr Color: and of course HR is the mod I don't play
[10:47:50] Mr Color: (since I have trouble even reading AR9)
[10:47:53] kriers: to be honest, HR is a mod I don't like to see in a tournament at all
[10:47:59] kriers: however, it's such a common thing to specialize in it
[10:48:05] Syed Huq: that's the problem
[10:48:21] Syed Huq: it's a specialty but the playerbase behind it isn't too narrow
[10:48:30] kriers: people practicing for the tournament are in any case likely to play the HR maps extra
[10:48:38] kriers: and with a few plays it gets okay
[10:48:41] Syed Huq: remember owc3
[10:48:42] Mr Color: did we have many picks on HR last round?
[10:48:42] Syed Huq: and SG
[10:48:43] kriers: this is NOT the case with FL
[10:48:44] Syed Huq: on the HR picks
[10:48:50] Syed Huq:
[10:49:07] Mr Color: many people played Courage to tell a lie, or Mellow D Fantasy
[10:49:15] Syed Huq: SG is definitely one of the strongest players right now
[10:49:20] Syed Huq: and in owc3 he sucked ass at HR
[10:49:21] Mr Color: the other mod picks were definitely less picked
[10:49:32] Mr Color: I think
[10:49:42] Syed Huq: so like
[10:49:44] Mr Color: the reason why we chose to introduced these three mods
[10:49:45] Syed Huq: on the last round or w/e
[10:49:47] Syed Huq: can we have AR9 DT picks
[10:49:50] Syed Huq:
[10:50:01] kriers: SG has a number of skills that are considered void in tournaments. Still his miss rate is so low thanks to the kind of maps he played and the mods he used
[10:50:02] Mr Color: is because a truly good player can master every aspect of playing
[10:50:07] Syed Huq: cough
[10:50:08] Syed Huq: EZ
[10:50:11] Mr Color: but of course, then comes the question of
[10:50:12] Mr Color: yeah
[10:50:18] Syed Huq: but
[10:50:20] Mr Color: stuff that's "controversial"
[10:50:25] Syed Huq: yeahhhh
[10:50:27] Mr Color: EZ/FL, etc
[10:50:40] Syed Huq: can i make EZ FL mod combo a thing
[10:50:50] Syed Huq: fuck that would be hard
[10:50:52] Mr Color: Don't you feel like map with EZ would be really cheap for players
[10:50:59] Syed Huq: well ok
[10:51:04] Mr Color: since it's not something that you are intended to get good at
[10:51:09] Syed Huq: yeah
[10:51:44] Mr Color: FL I think is just shunned by the community as a whole
[10:51:56] Mr Color: and after all, maybe that's why we don't use it
[10:52:15] Mr Color: it's frowned upon, so not many players use it, so why care about it in the first place
[10:52:16] kriers: there's a general amount of distrust to FL
[10:52:26] Mr Color: I think we'd have to change the community's opinion
[10:52:32] kriers: even legit FL scores are frustrating
[10:52:34] Mr Color: and that's not something you can... do
[10:52:53] Mr Color: and then there's always the issue of is this FL player legit
[10:52:56] Syed Huq: the community's opinion changes on its own
[10:53:06] kriers: it will not change about FL
[10:53:30] Mr Color: I remember when FL got temporarily removed because of the sheer number of cheated scores
[10:54:05] kriers: my personal opinion has been to wing clip FL for some time
[10:54:23] Mr Color: it's like, you see Millhiore do an insane performance with EZ, and then you see Lyby do an insane performance with FL
[10:54:24] kriers: reduce score bonus below 12%, or simply remove it altogether
[10:54:43] Mr Color: it's the same kind of "this is crazy they are monsters nobody can ever imitate them" feeling you get
[10:54:51 | Redigert 10:54:59] Mr Color: as the average player, I'm talking
[10:55:15] Mr Color: and that's why FL seems so unaccessible
[10:55:37] kriers: there's also the fact that most players neglect practicing either EZ or FL

Makar Wins! 3-1