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About putting 07th Expansion as artist.

posted
Total Posts
28
Bass
1,846 posts
Joined January 2009
Topic Starter
Bass
I've been always wondering why always people put 07th Expansion as artist in each map with Umineko soundtrack.

I've seen many maps which got "zts" in tags. I know he is responsible for some music from soundtrack, there are some other composers aswell. Why do we need to generalize them all as 07th Expansion? What's more, according to Wikipedia, nor zts or other composers of soundtrack doesn't belong to that group(if I am wrong, correct me, just basing on what I know):

Members

Ryukishi07—Screenplay, illustrations
Yatazakura—Scripting, also Ryukishi07's younger brother
BT—Homepage management (deceased)
I think it should be resolved like with Vocaloids - put original composer as artist(for example if it's zts) and "07th Expansion" in tags.

Maybe it's a bit too late but better later than newer, and that would be for future maps with soundtrack from Umineko games.

Topic open to discussion and opinion of these who are more acknowledged with Umineko games + people associated with them(in other words soundtrack composers) are really appreciated.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
The first maps did it and nobody questioned it, and the later maps did it because it was consistent with the other maps.

I think the better choice is whichever is more likely to lead someone to seek more work by the same artist. Not sure where to take it from there though! I can say that "07th Expansion" is a more memorable and attention-grabbing name than "zts", and that after a few songs I found myself giving the Umineko VN a spin.

Also, for what it's worth, we did successfully stop using "Hatsune Miku" as an artist. I wonder how useful people have found that to be.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
It actually makes sense but I don't like it. Having suddenly more unknown names as Artist cause trouble imo and I really see nothing wrong behind of keeping 07th expansion. Even if I see that this will be changed like the Composer to Vocaloid Songs.
Ciunek
52 posts
Joined February 2010
Ciunek
Bass is correct on that, and I'm -very- annoyed when I see bs artist like that, artists for Umineko ost are either zts (trance'y stuff) or dai, at least most of time. Consistency is just stupid, why would you keep something wrong consistent in the first place, that's like believing the Earth is centre of the universe because church said so :P

I agree it should be handled like vocaloid songs were. Also you're correct Bass, none of the composers belong to 07th Expansion.
Bass
1,846 posts
Joined January 2009
Topic Starter
Bass
So, using 07th Expansion is completely wrong, it's like we could use "umineko no naku koro ni" as artist and say it's fine..
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Well, blame the people who started with this.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

Soaprman wrote:

Also, for what it's worth, we did successfully stop using "Hatsune Miku" as an artist. I wonder how useful people have found that to be.
How useful do you think it is to make a rule which is inconsistent with every other genre?
Bass
1,846 posts
Joined January 2009
Topic Starter
Bass

Stefan wrote:

Well, blame the people who started with this.
Seems like russian people started it, tieff specifically

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/14546 most likely first ranked umineko map....what's worse.. in topic nobody mentioned artist is wrong.


Also https://osu.ppy.sh/s/15799 this map is from times when tieff's map got ranked but somehow it uses correct artist..

This seems to use correct title too https://osu.ppy.sh/s/49916 same with https://osu.ppy.sh/s/49207
That's really a bit of chaos while some maps uses constant "07th expansion" and rest uses correct artist. .
TicClick
Global Moderator
4,422 posts
Joined February 2011
TicClick
well we sometimes (most of times?) put circles instead of artists, so I don't see a big problem with it (Ayumi Nomiya vs ALiCE'S EMOTiON, for example). Actually, I'm fine with both and don't see why it should be changed
Bass
1,846 posts
Joined January 2009
Topic Starter
Bass
Does Ayumi Nomiya belong to ALICE's EMOTiON?
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
According to their website, she belongs to ALiCE's EMOTiON, but as a vocalist, so it's wrong and the group's name should be used as artist.

For 07th Expansión~ I totally agree with this, why put as an artist some group where composer(s) don't belong to :v?
If it worked with Vocaloid songs though it was wrong, why not with this?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Vocaloid is no music group, it's a sythesizer program. Putting instruments into Artist/Source makes no sense. It would be like putting trumpet, piano or guitar in these places.
(And yes, Hatsune Miku is just the name of an instrument, a voice producing one)

Comparing this guideline with Vocaloid is invalid.
Bass
1,846 posts
Joined January 2009
Topic Starter
Bass
So what, still we are using wrong artist AT ALL. NONE of composers belong to 07th Expansion. In case of touhou ones, singers like Ayumi Nomiya belongs to ALICE'S EMOTION so there is no problem. Why do we have to follow some russian former BAT who thinks he can put anything he want in artist and say it's right?
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

Loctav wrote:

Vocaloid is no music group, it's a sythesizer program. Putting instruments into Artist/Source makes no sense. It would be like putting trumpet, piano or guitar in these places.
(And yes, Hatsune Miku is just the name of an instrument, a voice producing one)

Comparing this guideline with Vocaloid is invalid.
Why are we putting for example Katy Perry as artist ? It's not her singing the song but her vocal cords, and therefor we should put Vocal cord as artist instead of her name.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Bass wrote:

So what, still we are using wrong artist AT ALL. NONE of composers belong to 07th Expansion. In case of touhou ones, singers like Ayumi Nomiya belongs to ALICE'S EMOTION so there is no problem. Why do we have to follow some russian former BAT who thinks he can put anything he want in artist and say it's right?
Or saying to every Touhou Arrangment that the Artist is ZUN since ZUN made the Originals to the Covers, Arrangments, etc etc.
But we know how this does not work and how stupid is this.
Ciunek
52 posts
Joined February 2010
Ciunek

Loctav wrote:

Vocaloid is no music group, it's a sythesizer program. Putting instruments into Artist/Source makes no sense. It would be like putting trumpet, piano or guitar in these places.
(And yes, Hatsune Miku is just the name of an instrument, a voice producing one)

Comparing this guideline with Vocaloid is invalid.
Guess what, 07th Expansion is not a music group either. Just saying, in case someone forgot that.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Even if its not the best but you all who against 07th Expansion as artist take a look at this. I don't know why but, at least, here 07th Exp. exist as a group and inside there is every artist who composed a song, like Final Answer.
Ciunek
52 posts
Joined February 2010
Ciunek
You realize it's just because people use bad tags in their playlists?
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
But since all people use 07th Exp. not just in osu! but on the entire world, I think leaving as it is better. And I'm still confused about the vocaloid maps, what you think will happen when suddenly every 07th Exp. artist goes as like zts? Even if its correct, I think most of the community will only recognize them if they goes as 07th Exp.
Ciunek
52 posts
Joined February 2010
Ciunek
No. Things that are obviously wrong need to be corrected. 07th Expansion can still go in the tags, but it is NOT the creator of the song. That is entirely like vocaloids, where you now put the composer instead of i.e. Miku as the artist (and Loctav obviously failed to see the similarities, heh) and should be dealt the same way. If people fail to recognize the artist, it's just their own fault for being misinformed and not even trying to get to know the truth.

Seriously, what's gonna be next? Using eroge company names instead of Duca or Katakiri Rekka for artist?
Aqua
298 posts
Joined December 2008
Aqua

Kurokami wrote:

But since all people use 07th Exp. not just in osu! but on the entire world, I think leaving as it is better. And I'm still confused about the vocaloid maps, what you think will happen when suddenly every 07th Exp. artist goes as like zts? Even if its correct, I think most of the community will only recognize them if they goes as 07th Exp.
Couldn't agree more with Ciunek.
Simply because a community adapted the wrong name, doesn't mean it has a right to stay or makes it correct.
You can't just put artists with similar style / genre under a different artist name. That's just flat out wrong.

Not sure if applicable, but imagine I compose a song and release it on the osu forums. Someone thinks to map it and write "osu!" as the artist, just because he has no idea who the real artist is.
Some player extracts the mp3, scrobbles it and shares it. You would end up in the same situation in a different rythmn game where someone says "it's everywhere like that". That doesn't make it correct.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

Rules wrote:

State why you do not agree with it. Make sure you have a better reason than "I don't like it" or "that's not how I roll".
Last edited by Sakura , edited 1 time in total.
UnderminE
osu! Alumni
4,011 posts
Joined August 2010
UnderminE
I used to support the idea "it's not 07th expansion, it's zts or dai or -45" as well. But when I think about it now, it's easy to collect/notice Umineko BGMs since maybe almost 10% of osu! actually knows about Umineko (story) or Umineko BGMs.

But on the other hand, it's sad to see people thinking like "this 07th Expansion is a great band" and they won't even understand even if you say "it's not a band, it's a company like KEY of Clannad; zts/dai/-45 are actually the composers".

If we are gonna treat Umineko BGMs as 07th Expansion work, then we must do this for all Visual Novel or Game BGMs and just add composer names to tags.

Edit:
What's more, according to Wikipedia, nor zts or other composers of soundtrack doesn't belong to that group(if I am wrong, correct me, just basing on what I know):

Members

Ryukishi07—Screenplay, illustrations
Yatazakura—Scripting, also Ryukishi07's younger brother
BT—Homepage management (deceased)
This is also ture because in Higanbana (another work of Ryukishi), zts doesn't have any work. But dai and -45 worked on BGMs afaik.
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman
I'm just looking into this myself since someone asked me about it which got my attention. I did find this tidbit looking around....

"07th Expansion is a Japanese dōjin circle that specializes in the creation of visual novels known as sound novels. They started out drawing for the trading card game Leaf Fight, but they are known for creating the dōjin game series Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and Umineko no Naku Koro ni. They were also involved in the additional console editions of Higurashi produced by Alchemist, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Matsuri for the PlayStation 2 and the Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Kizuna series for the Nintendo DS. Their most recent work is Rose Guns Days."

Seeing some of the posts actually came from this same wiki, that shouldn't be easy to overlook. Though, i've looked a bit harder and found some other info as well from another wiki. Lets read a bit more into this shall we?

"The visual novels have three opening theme songs. The four games of Umineko no Naku Koro ni use the opening theme "Umineko no Naku Koro ni" (うみねこのなく頃に?, "When the Seagulls Cry"), composed and performed by Akiko Shikata, which was released at Comiket 74 on August 15, 2008, and for public release on August 29, 2008 by Frontier Works.[25] The first two games of Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru (End and Dawn) use the opening theme "Occultics no Majo" (オカルティクスの魔女 Okarutikusu no Majo?, "Occultics Witch") sung by Ayumu from Zwei. The single for "Occultics no Majo" was released on November 26, 2009 by Geneon. The last two Chiru games (Requiem and Twilight) use the opening theme "Kiri no Pithos" (霧のピトス Kiri no Pitosu?, "The Pithos in the Fog") sung by Nei Kino.
At the end of each game, there are two ending themes: one played after the completion of the main game when the cast of characters is shown and another played after finishing the "????" epilogue when the staff credits are shown. In Legend of the Golden Witch, "Bring the Fate" composed by Hironori Doi is the first ending theme and "Rōgoku Strip" (牢獄STRIP Prison Strip?) composed by -45 is used for the staff credits. Turn uses "Kuro no Liliana" (黒のリリアナ Black Liliana?) composed by U2 Akiyama for the first ending theme and "Senritsu (Shirabe)" (旋律（シラベ） Melody (Shirabe)?) sung by Kazumi Kimura for the staff credits. The first ending theme of Banquet is "Dread of the Grave (Rhythm ver.)" composed by SB Yune and the staff credits theme is "Active Pain" performed by Zakuro Motoki. The first ending theme for Alliance is "Discode" sung by Kanae Sakura and "Rōgoku Strip" is again used for the staff credits. End's first ending theme is "Kodoku na Shinkaigyo" (孤独な深海魚 A Lonely Deep-Sea Fish?) composed by -45 and the staff credits theme is "Tsubasa (Hope)" (翼～hope～?, "Wings (Hope)") performed by Rekka Katakiri. Dawn uses "Birth of New Witch" sung by Zakuro Motoki as the first ending theme and "Usan no Kaori" (ウサンノカオリ?) sung by Nei Kino for the staff credits. The first ending theme for Requiem is "The Executioner" composed by Zts and the staff credits theme "Namae no Nai Uta" (なまえのないうた?, Nameless Song) is sung by Kanae Sakura. Twilight has three ending themes, and differs depending on the ending chosen. For the trick ending, the theme used is "Umineko no Naku Koro ni" by Akiko Shikata. For the magic ending, the first ending theme is "Byakumu no Mayu (Ricordando il passato)" (白夢の繭 ～Ricordando il passato～?, "White Cocoon of Dream (Remembering the Past)"), also composed and performed by Akiko Shikata. The staff credits theme is "Engage of Marionette" composed by Dai.
An original soundtrack for Legend of the Golden Witch entitled Essence was released on August 26, 2009."

The info is out there, we just have to try a bit harder to find it.
UnderminE
osu! Alumni
4,011 posts
Joined August 2010
UnderminE
Well those are just credits song, people mostly map BGMs. But well yeah it is not even hard to find, it's also easy to figure out like this:

dai: mostly piano songs
zts: at least 6 minutes of song plus long names
-45: always kanji title
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I know that Wikipedia isn't the most trustworthy source, but this is what it tells me about 07th Expansion.

Wikipedia wrote:

07th Expansion is a Japanese dōjin circle that specializes in the creation of visual novels known as sound novels.

[...]

Members [edit]

Ryukishi07—Screenplay, illustrations
Yatazakura—Scripting, also Ryukishi07's younger brother
BT—Homepage management (deceased)
I see nothing about composers. If these people are actually involved in musical composition, then I stand corrected. However, if the composer is outsourced, then couldn't "07th Expansion" be listed as the source? Using it inappropriately as the artist seems like a shameless cry for attention.
tieff
Featured Artist
2,254 posts
Joined March 2009
tieff

Bass wrote:

Stefan wrote:

Well, blame the people who started with this.
Seems like russian people started it, tieff specifically

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/14546 most likely first ranked umineko map....what's worse.. in topic nobody mentioned artist is wrong.
I started something, cool.
Well, I do agree what we should use a composers name/nickname as an Artist, so sorry about that, haha.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
This doesn't really require to be a rule nor to be here.
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