Hello lads,

I assume most of you are aware of this new feature added with sliders fading out when playing with Hidden and how they are fading out, this have lead to a lot of opinions (both negative and positive) and personally since I do go for #1 scores on maps using both Hidden and Flashlight it unfortunately had a negative effect which multiple #1 farmers seem to have agreed with, hence the initiative to create this thread.

A concern or what some people might consider a concern in this case is that Hidden got harder to read with these sliders fading out and even if I support this feature to exist in the game since I see why some people would like it, I do not believe it should have been implemented into the core game mechanics and forced upon everyone since this creates some issues.

The biggest issue in my opinion is with Hidden together with Flashlight which got a lot harder to play where you have to beat scores done with the old sliders which did not fade out this way which means that even if some #1's that I personally have would become harder to defeat, this is still really unfair since it from here on takes a lot more effort to achieve the same score than it did previously (when it comes to memorizing stuff and similar such as reading).

I also believe that only because some people like to modify their sliders (everything from removing sliderends to the followcircle) doesn't make it a good thing to force a change like this within the core game mechanics upon everyone since it negatively affects the gameplay for everyone who likes to play hidden together with flashlight (even if this is a minority of all the players, it's still something that is really having a negative effect).

I do believe that this feature would have been good if it was added when Osu! was released in the beginning but changing a thing like this 8 years later feels kind of awkward and just weird since this will mix up scores done both done with old sliders which faded out differently and the newer sliders fading out like this (I wouldn't bring this point up if there was an option to toggle this, read more about this later in the post).

Even if I believe that changes can be a good thing, I would say that changes should be prioritized on stuff that isn't working properly (not going to fire any shots in this thread since this thread is about doing something regarding the new hidden sliders) and not focusing on changing stuff that actually works just fine.

A few suggestions how to resolve this/apply improvements to this :

- Add an option where you could choose from different ways of the sliders to fade out (old way or new way), this would lead to everyone having the option to choose how they would prefer their sliders to fade out.

- Ignore this change and keep it the way it was before with you being able to edit files inside of your skin to fade out sliderends and similar, this would mean that even if this change with the sliders doesn't exist any longer you would still try to beat previous scores done with hidden using the same conditions as those players used to achieve these scores in the first place.

- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion).

- Wait with applying this change to sliders fading out until Osu!next and then add multiple options when it comes to skinning your sliders (together with other options) where you can apply changes such as choosing not to use this new fading and using the old sliders together with other options with sliders.

- Make these new fading out sliders an cosmetic mod (similar to what Nightcore is to DoubleTime) and make it Hidden v2 which means that you could select it if you double-tap the Hidden mod-icon in the mod selections. Example : HD+HR=1,12x score multiplier and HDv2+HR=1,12x score multiplier.

Lets keep the discussion civilized and hopefully one or more of these suggested changes can and will be applied in order to make improvements.

Thanks for reading!
Haxwell

t/1640
Read #8?

I agree!

Definitely support this...

Baraatje123 wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/1640
Read #8?

He isn't requesting a disable, he is requesting an elaborate toggle function to let us enjoy HDFL at the same level as it was before.

Haxwell suggested it as one of multiple possible solutions and the feature request itself is not about adding an option, but to make changes to how sliders fade out right now when playing with Hidden and Flashlight.

personally, i would like to see the upgraded hidden option.

you can have the old hidden like normal with non fading sliders, but the extra hidden could be more challenging, just not more rewarding. keep it the 0.06 extra score multiplier (otherwise a lot of old scores become completely destroyed).

at least people have a choice then. isn't that best for everyone? giving the users the best personal experience they enjoy, while not harming anyone or forcing people to adapt to new changes.


i personally hate the fading sliders due to the interaction with flashlight. without flashlight it's not a major deal (though, it's still an unnecessary change tbh...), but with flashlight it's a lot harder to memorize and learn maps at the pace i had. i'm sure other people share my opinion and have experienced the same.

For me personally this new feature could either make me stop playing completely or at least not competitively at all anymore. My favorite thing to do is to play high ar and get nice scores, but earlier after I updated I went to play a map I ss'd and failed instantly, but enough about how much I suck.

"you can have the old hidden like normal with non fading sliders, but the extra hidden could be more challenging, just not more rewarding. keep it the 0.06 extra score multiplier (otherwise a lot of old scores become completely destroyed)."

I would support this as well because it reminds me a bit of sudden death and perfect mod. In a sense. dont hate me

As someone who plays a lot of FL, I really hate this new hidden feature. The Hidden V2 sounds like a great idea. It's easy to turn it on and off whether or not you feel like using it.

Yes, at least make it toggleable. HDFL is such a pain in the ass now. Most FL players are using stable (fallback) because it doesn't have this feature, and I suggest anyone who doesn't want these sliders to use it too.

I personally would vote to take it out all together. Part of the difficulty of HD was to see those notes under the sliders. This change is for people who want an easy way to play HD instead of actually going out of their way to learn it.

Make the game customisable for fucks sake and stop being such a stubborn ass about things peppy.

Stop implementing useless features and fix things that need fixing.

Once stable fallback is gone and we can't escape this hidden slider update and all 4mod players will crawl up in a ball and die
Ps: this is way worse then the first hidden note having a hit circle update

Edit: Add toggle option and problem solved

Cayman wrote:

Once stable fallback is gone and we can't escape this hidden slider update and all FL players will crawl up in a ball and die
Ps: this is way worse then the first hidden note having a hit circle update

the nice thing about the first hidden note is THAT THERE IS AN OPTION WHETHER YOU WANT IT OR NOT.... WOW!!!! did whoever was reponsible for hidden sliders not consider just giving people the option to have it or not? it's pretty fucking simple and wouldn't annoy a good portion of the community.

A toggle option when flashlight is active would probably the most human thing to us

I think a toggle option would be the best option for this dilemma.

Fatfan Kolek wrote:

A toggle option when flashlight is active would probably the most human thing to us

While I never play flashlight, this seems like a good solution if it's really annoying. As for HD without FL: that's perfectly playable and should stay unchanged

Hidden sliders seem to be a great addition to competitive play, making HD picks for tournaments a lot more interesting, but forcing it upon everyone who doesn't just play HD or HRHD such as players who use DTHRFL or DTHRHDFL is detrimental. Making it an option locally would cause unfairness in competitions, so turning it into a multiplayer only modification would be more suitable, instead of changing HD all together. It's a two edge sword, since hidden notes behind sliders are now visible, which is a game-changing update, which means people in the future would either have an advantage over people who used to play older beatmaps with hidden notes behind sliders, and vice versa with those hidden sliders.

Edit: Actually, negating the hidden sliders effect when FL is turned on would ACTUALLY be a viable option. Please consider this, peppy!

Bye HDFL mode...

Well that's hidden mod for you. imo, we haven't adjusted to the new hd mod yet so it'll take time before it becomes the norm.

The main difficulty I have with the new hidden with flashlight isn't the fact that they fade out, but the fact that the slider start and slider end fade out before the slider track.
I like this new slider system (without FL) because it makes it so you don't require a special kind of skin for sightreading hidden, since it improves the ability to see what's under the sliders now that they fade out. However, when paired with flashlight, I feel like it's the total opposite, that you would need a special kind of skin to make the sliders more playable at over 200 combo. If the slider starts and slider ends didn't fade out, it personally wouldn't be a problem for me with flashlight since the start of the slider would be just as noticeable without some bright slider track color and vibrant slider outline. Also, call me old fashioned, but I think sliders look plain ugly and wrong without starts and ends; if I didn't want slider ends I would've skinned them off.

tl;dr make the slider start and slider end fade out with the slider pls

BeMoNcHiK wrote:

Bye HDFL mode...

Bye Osu! You will not be missed

I have old version (old sliders) and i don't have problems, but new sliders are very shitty. I agree...

HDFL now is very hard for new versions

i'm in favor of the second plan

This change is extremely dumb if you want to use FL and HD at the same time. Toggle option when FL is enabled would be 101% better imo.

Like previously said, it's just really fucking stupid to change a mods mechanic after such a long fucking time. ESPECIALLY one that is already working as it is. Flashlight as a mod has been disregarded for the longest time and it'll probably be the same way in the future - bringing this up because the issue lies in fl+hd, while hd alone is fine. The great majority of players don't play fl at all and it's peppy's job to make the game appeal to said player base. This doesn't mean that i support this in any way though.

There are THOUSANDS of freakin' scores with hidden out there, which are easier done than those that will follow. While peppy tried not to change mods like hr and dt (there's really no way he could change any of the values like ar, od and what not, because that would result in unfair advantages for players that have plays on maps already, both in terms of pp and score). Now that's where the whole "BUT HR AND DT CHANGE HOW THE MAP PLAYS, WHILE HD AND FLASHLIGHT DON'T" argument comes into play, which both peppy and tom seem to have a very strong affinity towards.

EVERYONE that's played at least 5 minutes of flashlight knows that it's not as easy as some make it out to be. Just look at the pp values for some of the crazy fl plays out there, they ARE FUCKING LAUGHABLE. There's players out there that are fast and can do +dt or +hr 500pp sightreads all day, but could they poop out 200pp fl plays? PROBABLY NOT. The effort that goes into something like that is wayyyyyyyyy beyond what you actually get, resulting in a absolutely non-rewarding mod (pp-wise)(effort required for a score should be rewarded).

Now, not a whole lot of people play fl because of this, which is kinda sad in and by itself. This change will be stupid for spinner players, it will be stupid for easy/normal players, it will be stupid for crazy fl players like BluOxy etc.

With "ScoreV2" - jesus christ just thinking about this gives me aids - we have another plague to overcome. It might or might not get implemented into singleplayer and i don't want to go too deep into this, but FL only WILL NOT BE IN ANY LEADERBOARDS WHATSOEVER. HDHR overweight's it (by a lot actually), DT ALONE WILL OVERWEIGHT IT, let alone DTHD. With FLHD being waaaaaaay behind DTHD in score, you won't even get your sweet spots on the leaderboards anymore, playing FLHD will be ridiculously difficult, while being even less rewarding than previously. Like seriously who would still play that? YES, FL would be dead as fuck except on fullmod easy/normal diffs.

I'm getting more off topic by the minute, so I'm just gonna call a final bullshit on "fl pp is fine, just play those 8* maps and you'll see"... No that is not gonna happen anytime soon, so there's nothing to worry about or nobody to worry about who might be abusing it in any way. Tom obviously didn't play any flashlight in his life to be able to justify not buffing it in terms of pp.

So yeah, rant end. Some of this is megaaaaaa off topic, but my jimmies get rustled every time i see flashlight being mentioned. Peace.

Edit: Gonna vote this request up, once I'm able to. Just realized i repeated a lot stuff that's already been said, but i was too rustled to read all of it, and I'm too lazy to remove stuff at this point.

ALSO, if you have resources to put into stupid changes like this, how about we get a good anti-cheat-system already? Like seriously how come there's still hundreds of spin-hackers out there, that have been reported a thousand times???? LIKE HOW IN HELL IS THIS PIECE OF SHIT STILL ALIVE: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/6332647 ............................

Wilken-nyan wrote:

Like previously said, it's just really fucking stupid to change a mods mechanic after such a long fucking time. ESPECIALLY one that is already working as it is.

This is the main reason i support this, but all this fl being underrated stuff is also correct. Take my star (in some hours).

I now disagree with this
I haven't played hidden in a while, and decided to play it now
I really like it, it gives much more readability to sliderstacks, making previously awful to play stacks quite readable now
These are also the case with Fl
If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it

Baraatje123 wrote:

Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it

This is funny, because you have no #1s, let alone with HDFL.

Fey wrote:

Baraatje123 wrote:

Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it

This is funny, because you have no #1s, let alone with HDFL.

#1s mean nothing.

#1s mean nothing.

I agree

Give it time, I'm sure you'll adapt

The update hasn't even been live for a week on stable, and personally as a non-fl player, I enjoy the new HD sliders

iirc didn't ppy said he was planning to make this toggle relate to the Snaking Sliders effect? I dunno

Baraatje123 wrote:

I now disagree with this
I haven't played hidden in a while, and decided to play it now
I really like it, it gives much more readability to sliderstacks, making previously awful to play stacks quite readable now
These are also the case with Fl
If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it

Someone doesn't play HDFL...

Sightreading 100 combo with HDFL is nothing compared to the memorisation HDFL players pull off.

Plus, making Hidden easier isn't a positive thing. With that logic, remove the fact that FL grows every 100 combo until 200 combo, because it makes it easier for us.

It used to be a challenge to read the stacks under sliders.

But what would I know, I'm just some shitty player who farms #1s because I can exploit my arm muscles, right?

On a side note: I love it how all the spin players have all joined to chip in their opinion ;D

If you are saying HDFL is memorization, why does it matter that the sliders fade if you memorize them anyway?

Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!

p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".

I'm sorry, when you clicked Flashlight and wanted to 4 mod normals, did you expect it to be easy?
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?

I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.

HD is much better since the update. No more 'hidden notes'. Readability is great now. Sliders behave like a hit object as they always should have instead of behaving like an un-HD slider. I much prefer Hidden now that the change has gone through on CE. 10/10.

^^
This
Just this

Kayla wrote:

I'm sorry, when you clicked Flashlight and wanted to 4 mod normals, did you expect it to be easy?
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?

I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.

This is the most retarded thing I've read all week. If you have no experience with something AND NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER, then could you please just stay quiet. Like you don't even play FL and try to justify the hidden sliders.

There is reading going on with easy/normal and even hard/easier insane maps with FL. If you farm #1's for example, you will most likely NOT memorize the complete map, but maybe 1-2 really really really short parts. It's more about reacting than memorizing at that point. HD however takes all of this away.

Why in the hell should FL not have a multiplier? WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU COMMENTING ON SOMETHING PEOPLE LIKE WITH SUCH A OBVIOUSLY NEGATIVE BIAS? like you probably never played FL in your entire freakin' life, go into a thread and spread your not thought out little bullshitty opinion.

Same goes for the other smartass.

Let's say ar9+dt would be changed to ar11 instead of ar10.3! Would i go into a thread and say: "Well you know, it's a totally justified change. I mean i can comment on this because i almost got 10 seconds into a song with it!" NO I FUCKING WOULDN'T.

Can you please stop raging if people disagree with something you agree with?
Everyone is allowed to have a meaning right?
It doesn't support the thread at all
It actually makes it more likely to be shut down completely and be locked

Baraatje123 wrote:

Can you please stop raging if people disagree with something you agree with?
Everyone is allowed to have a meaning right?
It doesn't support the thread at all
It actually makes it more likely to be shut down completely and be locked

Neither does anything you or that other guy said.

If Haxwell has a problem with any of what I'm saying, then I'll gladly delete it.

Yes why not destroy a mod and make another. 7 years after......and keep ALL the scores after


This is the case

FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.

If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.

Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.

Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?

lol watch out for peppy with a baseball bat!
i do support option 3 tho

- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion).

Kayla wrote:

I'm sorry, when you clicked Flashlight and wanted to 4 mod normals, did you expect it to be easy?
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?

HDFL can either be entirely memorized, or you can sightread some easy parts of it. Removing the readability of HDFL will make it harder for some, sometimes much harder, such as on [http://osu.ppy.sh/s/874 NicoVideo - Kona-Chan: Farucon Pan! (sm2164009)]. Once you play FL or HDFL a lot you will see how sometimes you can sightread maps on FL.

Kayla wrote:

I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.

Kayla wrote:

FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.

There are two ways to know how to click notes in the game: reading and memorization. I use both, even without flashlight. I can't read ar10 so I memorize the map, I sometimes memorize hidden, heck I sometimes memorize nomod. Reading and memorization both take skill, and just saying memorization is not part of osu! is not correct.

Kayla wrote:

If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.

Making new scores easier to set is pretty bad already, now make new scores harder to set is even worse. Flashlight is a mod that will become dead in the future. This is what is happening to HDFL right now.

Kayla wrote:

Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.

This is just an insult to people who try their best to get #1 scores. Go ahead and try getting a 4mod #1 score on a easy/normal map, it is much harder than you might think without practice. osu! is about having skill, and getting #1 scores is a skill. If spinning takes no skill, why do spinners exist in this game? Also remember the five digit players that try to play easy/normal maps with fullmod might not find it as easy as us.

Kayla wrote:

Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?

Skill range varies among all players. Just because you can pass a song does not mean others can.
Also, some people like to see themselves be better at something than others. This is how human competition works.

Baraatje123 wrote:

If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on

It would be much more convenient to just toggle on or off, as some skins are made for aesthetics rather than readability. Nowdays people like to use skins to improve their gameplay, but some don't. I use skins for both aesthetics and readability, and brightening the sliders will sacrifice aesthetics for readability. This is already the case in the newest version where peppy is trying to force sausage sliders down our throats. Some people just don't like the look of those sliders while others do.
Also, it's about the sliders that can't be read with the new hidden change that matters. If all sliders are readable using HDFL, then this thread won't exist.

To be honest, I like this change, but I am concerned about how peppy is trying to push flashlight players aside and say they don't really matter. It's like discrimination against minorities in real life. If flashlight players don't matter why did peppy include flashlight in this game in the first place?

Having a fair playing field for a game that is driven by competition is extremely important. So, I support this even though I rarely play HD and I never play HDFL.

I do see why hidden shouldnt change via haxwell and therefore think it better not change, but if peppy change mod, then either must adjust or not play.

My biggest gripe with the new Hidden is that it's still the same mod. Not implementing a Hidden2 á la Nightcore gives people who played on previous versions of osu! a rather huge advantage as the mod WAS easier before. You did not need to memorize as much stuff and reading sliders was much much easier.
For me having an option between the two styles is not about preferences, it's about different gameplay mechanics being weighted and thrown together as one, which isn't right in a game that solely focuses on said gameplay. Changes should be adresses as such, and clear distinctions should be made. This is almost as stupid as having pre-2007 and post-2007 spinners in the same leaderboards.

And to fullfill peppy's wishes on how to write a comment in this thread:
It's also really fukin ugly and aesthetically unpleasing combined with the new slider rendering.

Oh boy am I glad someone made a request for this.
A toggle would be nice. Hidden v2 mod sounds great.
Why are some people against this idea? It doesn't have any negative effect on you if you do like the new hidden.

And I can understand people would prefer the new hidden in case they had problems with reading notes underneath sliders (eventhough this could've been solved by changing your skin), but people also need to understand that this new hidden makes Flashlight + Hidden nearly impossible (especially on long, slow sliders in crazy shapes).

Oh wait
What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?
Then I can definitely see why people want/need it, and I can agree with it
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well
Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him

Baraatje123 wrote:

Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory.

Trust me, it's not.
But with the new hidden it will be like that, and that is something I (+plenty of other people apparently) do not want.

Baraatje123 wrote:

Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory

Oh offcourse its 99.9% memory.....

Kayla wrote:

FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.

Oh man this comment was great. HD can also be played by memorization, so does that mean we should remove the multiplier for HD too? lmao
HD has the option of both reading and memorization, it's significantly easier.

Baraatje123 wrote:

Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well

If it was 99.9% memory that would mean that, statistically, the majority of maps don't even have a single note in them that you read.

Baraatje123 wrote:

What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?

I completely agree that this needs to be thought about some more. Soweon pointed out the issue of crazy sliders, and I'd have to agree that is probably the biggest issue right now. Such as this one: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3940847

You'd be hard pressed to figure out when exactly to change what angle you're moving.

Baraatje123 wrote:

Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him

With all due respect, I'm not sure if Peppy is really in the right position to be making these decisions, because he barely even plays osu at all. Then again, he doesn't seem to be concerned with how this change affects FL players at all, so who knows?

Personally, I'd say it would be more visually appropriate for Flashlight players to have the option of maintaining slider visibility with HD as said long sliders lack any sort of feedback. Normal consecutive notes have hitsounds and followpoints to give you at least some direction as to where you're going, but sliders' sliding sounds don't vary based off of how far off-centre you are, and it doesn't have any indication of direction late into the slider with HDFL.