that's really hard to do though because i have to use mouse clicks which forces me to press my right hand down and makes it harder to move around. why can't i just bind 4 keys to click? is there not an ini file i can edit or a script or something?Aqo wrote:
the only legitimate way to do this would be the sprosive style
M1M2K1K2
It is not cheating. First of all, you can't really say that this game is "supposed" to be played with two keys, since it was originally designed for a ds touchscreen + stylus. In reality there is no specific way you're supposed to play the game, and if there was, you would have to consider the zx + m1m2 method cheating as well. All that using zxcv (or maybe just zxc) does is make the input easier and more comfortable. It doesn't give you an unfair advantage any more than a tablet does. Besides, I don't think having to practice pressing 2 keys at 200bpm for streams really adds much to the game. It's way easier on your wrists, too.winber1 wrote:
the game is supposed to be played with two keys, so giving four keys that can be clicked independently is essentially cheating...
It works fine if you make an autohotkey script and bind c to z and v to x. ahk doesn't unbind keys that you've bound other keys to, and plus i've tried typing c/v while holding z/x in the searchbar and played the game and it works fine.Full Tablet wrote:
Even if you assign the mouse keys to keyboard keys, it wouldn't make much of a difference, since you can't press Left Click until the Z key has been lifted (and vice-versa), and you can't use Right Click until X has been lifted.
there are people who have to force themselves just to alternate z/x, so I'm sure you could get used to it. I haven't really tested it that much though and you might be right; in that case you could just use zxc and alternate between your first 3 fingersGoldenWolf wrote:
good luck alternating pinky + ring finger though
hold z/x and try to alternate using c/v during a stream and see if it works or notkarlthestampede wrote:
It works fine if you make an autohotkey script and bind c to z and v to x. ahk doesn't unbind keys that you've bound other keys to, and plus i've tried typing c/v while holding z/x in the searchbar and played the game and it works fine.
yeah, it does. if you want to test it out yourself here's what you do: download autohotkey, then right-click the desktop, click "make new autohotkey script" and type this:GoldenWolf wrote:
hold z/x and try to alternate using c/v during a stream and see if it works or notkarlthestampede wrote:
It works fine if you make an autohotkey script and bind c to z and v to x. ahk doesn't unbind keys that you've bound other keys to, and plus i've tried typing c/v while holding z/x in the searchbar and played the game and it works fine.
It shouldn't be considered as cheating, being consistent in streams with 4 keys could be way harder than using 2.Full Tablet wrote:
Having 4 keys would be a considerable advantage (for example, reaching the speed needed to stream fast pretty easily). Making a script that allows you to play with 4 keys would be a form of cheating.
osu! was originally designed for the PC, it just happened to be based on a game made for the DS. You're explicitly given two keyboard keys and two mouse keys, so it's perfectly fair to say that the game was intended to be played using some combination of those and only those four keys.karlthestampede wrote:
you can't really say that this game is "supposed" to be played with two keys, since it was originally designed for a ds touchscreen + stylus. In reality there is no specific way you're supposed to play the game, and if there was, you would have to consider the zx + m1m2 method cheating as well
Horrible logic. An aimbot doesn't doesn't have to manipulate the client directly either.karlthestampede wrote:
note that this doesn't break any rules, since you aren't actually manipulating the Osu client itself.
Because of the way OD works, the difference would become less significant as bpm increased. Eventually there would be no practical difference at all.eldnl wrote:
It shouldn't be considered as cheating, being consistent in streams with 4 keys could be way harder than using 2.
Osu! only can register two keys, and as I said earlier, if you press z or x, you will not be able to press c or v without lifting z or x up. If you are able to press all of them independently, then you are manipulating osu! someway or finding a loophole around how it should work and that is definitely cheating. Also, this is based on the DS game, not exactly the DS game. Peppy designed it to be for two keys, and that is the way it works.karlthestampede wrote:
yeah, it does. if you want to test it out yourself here's what you do: download autohotkey, then right-click the desktop, click "make new autohotkey script" and type this:
z::c
x::v
and then double-click the file to run it and start osu. you just have to exit the program when you want to turn it off so you can use c and v.
note that this doesn't break any rules, since you aren't actually manipulating the Osu client itself.
also, maybe this thread should be moved to feature requests because I want to request that the ability to do this kind of keymapping (having multiple inputs do the same thing) be incorporated into the UI
Answers to bolded text in order:karlthestampede wrote:
Well if ahk is cheating according to the current game design then I guess I'll stop using it. However, at this point I've given up trying to find a way to change the input by manipulating the game myself, and I'm now requesting a change from within the client to support this kind of input without overlap of the keys. if that request goes against peppy's design of the game, then I really question that design.
The reason I want to do this in the first place isn't exactly for the advantage in speed, even though that does exist. I mainly want to use 4 keys because it's a lot easier for the hands and wrist. There are plenty of cases (like this t/133144&start=0) of people fucking up their wrists from osu because they have to press z and x so many times. using 4 keys would cut the amount of keystrokes used by each finger in half, which makes it much less of a repetitive motion. If the game is designed so that someone has to use their hand in a way that gives them seizures, that's not very good game design. I know it would mean that all the work done by people developing the skill to stream at 300bpm would be for almost nothing. But that would just be a case of shovel envy, or if not, then something like gunz where players are measuring their skill by how well they manage the game's bad design and control scheme. Do you want to play a game that's about rhythmic timing and accuracy, or do you just want it to be about how fast you can press two buttons? Because, as it is, osu is kind of an unpleasant combination of those two things. I admit that it's highly unlikely peppy would ever change the game this way, since it'd be really controversial, but I think it would be an improvement. A game's difficulty should not come from limits in the control setup.
and another thing: if peppy intended the game to be only used with 2 keys, then why do we have the option of playing with touchscreen tablets?
I feel like this should be situational. While I do disagree with OP about using AHK to play with more keys, I personally had a legitimate use for it (I'm right-handed on mouse and left-handed on tablet, so it saves me from having to leave multiplayer rooms to rebind keys when switching playstyles).RaneFire wrote:
Auto hotkey is cheating.
It doesn't. The limits just create an equal playing field between players.karlthestampede wrote:
A game's difficulty should not come from limits in the control setup
I'm pretty sure you just contradicted yourself there. If you don't need speed, then why is letting everyone go fast more easily an unfair advantage?Purple wrote:
Big part of osu! Is about how fast you can move your fingers. Chess isn't a good analogy, this game requieres more physical activity than some "sports". Im sure Peppy understood that when he added the DT mod. But you don't have to be ultra fast to play high tier. You can achieve extremely impressive scores without much speed. The game is fully enjoyable without speed. Seriously, time to let the thread die.
Well i just assumed you're good since you're in the top 50 of the usa. And i never said that I thought pros only mash, I was just assuming that's what you thought because that seems like the only reason to defend 2-key playing. Then it's like I thought: mashing, or pressing the keys really fast, is not an important part of the game. So why does there need to be such careful limits on the controls to prevent people from mashing? because that's all using 4 keys does; it helps you click faster and nothing else. You seem to agree that streaming is more about rhythm than mashing, so why is it so important to test people's mashing ability with 2 keys?TheVileOne wrote:
Don't look at me like I am good at the game or anything. I want to comment at your claim that pro players only mash as song difficulties get higher. I don't know how fast you are referring to where you think players cannot stream to a particular rhythm and have to resort to haphazard spamming. Pros take a little more care than to mash everything.
It doesn't make the game easier. Pros don't get where they are because they can press the keys really fast; there's a bunch of other, more important things they do that set them apart already. Making the controls more fluid =/= making the game less difficult. You said before that pros don't just mash as song difficulties get higher. If that's true, then how would making mashing easier render the skill level of the top streamers irrelevant? Is their skill nothing more than pressing the keys really fast? No; we've already established that it isn't.TheVileOne wrote:
The problem with this idea is that it's not fair to the current pros. We would essentially be making maps easier for other players, rendering the skill level of the top streamers with two key gaming as irrelevant. We would see three key gamers producing plays of equal performance as two key players and the difference in skill level between the two types of players would be great. Pros want the game to be more difficult, not easier.
Are you saying the meta of osu comes from the challenge of having to press 2 keys really fast? Streaming and jumping are the meta of osu, and the meta of streaming is rhythm and timing while jumping is about accuracy. Where in that meta is the mashing? that's all 4 keys takes away. The effect of having 4 keys is exactly: now everyone can mash the keys really fast. It doesn't simplify the meta of the actual game, it just improves ergonomic comfort. And how exactly is the change less intellectually challenging? are you saying you get an intellectual challenge from pressing zxzxzxzx?TheVileOne wrote:
Streaming and jumping are the meta of osu! By changing it, you change everything about how people play. Adding a third key would simplify the system, and imagine the consequence to a pro when you simplify the meta and lower the skill ceiling of the game. Imagine if League of Legends just suddenly decided to reduce the number of stat affecting values in the game. More people would be able to play it, but many pros would find the change less intellectually challenging. Simplifying the meta in osu! would render the game overall less physically challenging and at the same time diluting our current definition of what is skillful to play.
It is unfair to those who have been playing much longer than you. You stroll up into a community of a game that you have been playing for three months and complain about a simple aspect of the game that others are okay with yet somehow needs changing because you can't deal with having to practice something? (this is a very wordy sentence.) Why should we listen to you and fulfill all of your requests? What gives you that authority/right/privilege?karlthestampede wrote:
I'm pretty sure you just contradicted yourself there. If you don't need speed, then why is letting everyone go fast more easily an unfair advantage?
Pressing keys/buttons fast is the point of osu. It has been that way for seven years and somehow I don't think your whining is going to change that. If you don't like the game, you are free to leave and find another game whose developers might value your whining.karlthestampede wrote:
You also say that it keeps the game physically challenging. Besides precise tablet/mouse movement, the only thing that makes the game physically challenging is keyboard tapping, so I'm going to assume that by saying this you mean that you value skill in pressing keys really fast. I fail to see how that makes the game more interesting/fun/challenging besides just making you spend more time practicing a mindless repetitive motion.
Wrong. Required accuracy decreases as stream speed increases because of how OD works, so the benefits of two additional buttons would quickly outweigh the detriments.YayMii wrote:
The thing is, streaming requires precise and consistent quick button presses. From prior experience with other rhythm games, I can safely say that the more buttons you introduce, the less consistent you will be. Changing the game to support 4 buttons will completely change the game and add a different skill that wasn't required in the first place.
Shirokami- wrote:
Wrong. Required accuracy decreases as stream speed increases because of how OD works, so the benefits of two additional buttons would quickly outweigh the detriments.What are you even talking about
Since for each OD value the time window is the same no matter the bpm, it's easier to get good accuracy at high speed (as long as you can reliably keep the required speed).Shirokami- wrote:
Wrong. Required accuracy decreases as stream speed increases because of how OD works, so the benefits of two additional buttons would quickly outweigh the detriments.What are you even talking about
Huh? You don't need speed, so why keep complaining? Work hard just like everyone else if you want it. It's as simple as that.karlthestampede wrote:
I'm pretty sure you just contradicted yourself there. If you don't need speed, then why is letting everyone go fast more easily an unfair advantage?Purple wrote:
Big part of osu! Is about how fast you can move your fingers. Chess isn't a good analogy, this game requieres more physical activity than some "sports". Im sure Peppy understood that when he added the DT mod. But you don't have to be ultra fast to play high tier. You can achieve extremely impressive scores without much speed. The game is fully enjoyable without speed. Seriously, time to let the thread die.
This is what I was trying to get at in my other post...you need to be able to physically keep a steady beat, which is more difficult with 4 fingers in comparison to 2. There's a definite difference between pressing several buttons and simply alternating.Full Tablet wrote:
(as long as you can reliably keep the required speed).
Ever heard of mania?mcdoomfrag wrote:
I don't know if it's even possible/viable for someone to deathstream accurately with 3 or more keys anyways, so what's the point of arguing?
He didn't, he only said that while speed a fair part of osu!, you can achieve impressive scores that don't necesserily need a lot of speed, like most HD HR scores for examplekarlthestampede wrote:
I'm pretty sure you just contradicted yourself there. If you don't need speed, then why is letting everyone go fast more easily an unfair advantage?Purple wrote:
Big part of osu! Is about how fast you can move your fingers. Chess isn't a good analogy, this game requieres more physical activity than some "sports". Im sure Peppy understood that when he added the DT mod. But you don't have to be ultra fast to play high tier. You can achieve extremely impressive scores without much speed. The game is fully enjoyable without speed. Seriously, time to let the thread die.
No, you just need to push four buttons in the space of one beat. The actual timing of these four hits relative to each other becomes less and less important as time increases. Given that you'd have four buttons, getting all four of those hits would be trivial, making streaming at obscenely high BPMs a joke. Consistency would cease to even be part of the equation.YayMii wrote:
you need to be able to physically keep a steady beat, which is more difficult with 4 fingers in comparison to 2
No, it wouldn't. All that would change is that rather than ramping up from single tapping to alternating as necessary, players would ramp up from single tapping to quad-tapping.YayMii wrote:
Either way, it'd completely change the way the game plays if implemented.
No, it wouldNarrillNezzurh wrote:
No, it wouldn't. All that would change is that rather than ramping up from single tapping to alternating as necessary, players would ramp up from single tapping to quad-tapping.YayMii wrote:
Either way, it'd completely change the way the game plays if implemented.
Doubtful.GoldenWolf wrote:
No, it would