19:15 wcx19911123: hello o.o/
19:15 Nozhomi: hola
19:16 wcx19911123: I saw your opinions to the Insane diff in my map
19:16 wcx19911123: I might adjust it a bit
19:17 wcx19911123: just to see if you could fix the bubble, or I need to contact zero wind
19:18 Nozhomi: dunno if 100% worth a rebub, but you can contact Zero Wind if you feel unsure about that
19:18 wcx19911123: I see
19:19 wcx19911123: is that ok if I fix it when next bn who want to push it forward come?
19:20 Nozhomi: ye, it's fine as long you fixed that
19:20 wcx19911123: ok :3
19:21 Nozhomi: just make sure you reply somewhere you did it and should be k for other people
19:21 wcx19911123: I'll do it :3

Lasse wrote:

shouldn't this have more red lines from 00:58:802 - to 01:05:945 - to adjust for the 9/8 ish stuff or whatever?
at least there was a lot of discussion about it on p/5816800

Gaia wrote:

extra
00:12:284 (6) - since 00:11:302 (8,1) - is following piano this should also be following it so it should be on the red tick 1/4 before
if you hear it carefully you can find that the piano is at 00:11:570 -
00:13:088 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - lacking a lot of structure and aesthetics imo
this is a 1/4 part with regular spacing, and I added jumps at 00:13:088 - 00:13:445 - 00:13:802 - 00:14:516 - to follow the downbeat
00:14:516 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - the song doesn't support this kind of stream at all, feels like u put this here just for the sake of being gimmicky
the vocal at 00:14:516 - and 00:14:873 - are much heavier than the rest around them, that's why I added the jumps
00:15:945 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - spacing is pretty much screwed up right here
00:15:945 (1,2) - and 00:16:302 (3,4) - are regular spacing here and I added some jumps to follow the heavy downbeat at 00:16:302 - 00:16:659 -
00:17:998 (5) - switch rhythms the snare on the end of a kickslider doesn't emphasize the note properly
I'm following piano sound at 00:17:909 - and 00:17:998 - by clicking objects cuz the sound are heavy enough, 00:18:088 - the drum in this part is more quiet than the mixed piano and vocal so I used the slider end to follow
00:19:070 (4,5) - even further than before so makes even less sense //actually it looks like a 1/2 spacing if you ask me
circle->circle spacing is not the same as slider -> slider or slider -> circle, you can't map them the same way and expect them to play the same.
this jump is much smaller than some other jumps in the map, the pattern is a steam with a jump in the heavy downbeat, it's clearly to read, I don't see why you would think it's 1/2 gap. about the playability, the spacing seems to be huge but actually it‘s much easier than some chaos part in the diff
00:29:159 (2,3,4) - of all the possible patterns you chose this weird flowing overlapped pattern :/
00:28:802 (1,4) - this 2 sliders has a huge gap in the time, if you test the map in play mode you probably not realize that they are overlapped due to the ar
00:30:230 (1,2,3,4) - this rhythm can be improved imo also there's no triple on 00:31:034 (4) - but there is vocal on 00:31:213 -
I mainly follow the downbeat at here. switch to vocal after the reverse slider would mislead the regular feeling
00:33:445 (2) - spacing - looks like a 1/4
the spacing is small but the rhythm would be read as a 1/4 beat here. cuz the note is in white beat line, it should be really werid if the note being at 00:33:355 - , players won't expect that. they might probably read the slider end at 00:33:355 - , but the length of the slider is easy to tell so this won't happens either
00:34:695 (2) - extended slider skips a snare..
the long vocal is heavier than the drums here, and I'm follow the vocal mainly here
00:36:123 (2,3,4) - weird slider emphasis again
it's following the downbeat here
00:38:802 (1,2,3,4,5) - once again i think this lacks structure, pattern really isnt cohesive , some symmetry copy pasta would work wonders here
they have good structure here, spacing, rhythm and the type of objects are following the song and easy to read
00:45:855 (1,2,3,4,5) - why do you do this when you can just make them flow all in the same direction, the flow here is really obstructed cuz of the way u laid out the sliders
kicksliders' center is slider head not the middle of the slider body or anything else. cuz the mouse don't need to move when clicking. so I put the head of them in a nice flow, the flow won't be worse even if the direction of them are mess
00:46:659 (6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13) - ya no, 00:48:088 (4,5,6) - this is alright since it's slider -> circle and circle -> slider but the one in question is not, so it should be mapped differently
I'm following the drum with the jump here. I know that you know different object type with the same spacing effect the difficulty of jumping, but the spacing also does. the spacing for the 1/4 circle jump is not hard to play
00:50:230 (1) - overlap can easily be avoided for better aesthetics
00:49:873 (5,1) - the time gap is 1/1 between them, the overlap won't mislead the readablity
00:50:230 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - i get that you want to have some variation among the different character's voices but map wise this is very random. at the very least probably want to add NCs with each different pattern// also i'd like to say that 00:51:659 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - doesnt fit with the previous 2 patterns since these 2 have very minimal (close to none) cursor movement rather than the previous pattern where it had constant cursor movement
for each vocal I used a polygon to follow by decreasing the number of edges, this is a obvious pattern. btw the distance of movement is the same, only the direction is different here
00:53:088 (1,2,3,4,5) - this is mapped to vocals, 00:53:802 (6,7,8,9) - this is not?
00:53:891 - here is no vocal sound
00:55:230 (7,8,9) - 1/2 slider fits vocals more
I'm following not vocal only but also drum or bass here, steam is a bit more harder to play so it's better to keep the same pattern as previous one
00:59:873 (7,8,9,1,2,3) - why do you flip the two supposedly mirrored patterns in such an awkward way ? this can easily be a very clean pattern with ctrl+j or ctrl+h..
they are not awkward at all.. unless you think a little overlapping is awkward
01:01:480 (7,8,9) - breaks consistency of your leftside/rightside pattern, ctrl+h and put it to the top right corner would be a lot nicer
I used the same patterns to 00:58:802 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - , 00:59:873 (7,8,9,1,2,3) - and 01:00:945 (4,5,6,7,8,9) - . the consistency doesn't been broken
01:13:088 (1,2,3) - flow can be better
the center of short slider is in the slider head, in this case the direction of the slider won't change flow effectively
01:19:873 (7,1) - ^
this is one is no problem at all.. the flow is fine
01:20:230 (1,2,3,4) - these should at least compliment eachother more, right now it's 2 independent patterns with the same rhythm
they are not 2 independent patterns. I used the 2nd slider blanket the 1st slider and speed up to the 2nd one. the regular pattern is easy to see and the structure of entirety is nice in this part
01:22:641 (8,9) - too sudden, gap is way too big for a 1/4 anyways
I already added many 1/4 jump in steam before, this one is not sudden at all. on the other hand, the spacing is small enough to make this jump being in the average of difficulty of the whole set. the jump is following the heavy downbeat
01:23:088 (1) - and then this just kills all spacing again
this anti-jump is made as transition to warn players the next part is much more different(in this case the rhythm density is lower here)
01:26:302 (2) - sliderend can probably be lowered in volume too, right now it's just 'tick' even tho there really isnt anything there
you can hear the wave sound in the music is turning louder at first and then calm down, I add the hitsound to follow it cuz I stop the slider at the loudest part of the wave

honestly i think this is lacking structure in the most part, a lot of really random placements i personally don't make sense out of.
I have my thought and mind in everywhere of this diff.. I can try my best to explain to you if you can't find the reason why I did this. but it's a bit arbitrary to say it's random imo

21:35 wcx19911123: hello o.o/
21:35 Desperate-kun: hey
21:36 wcx19911123: do you remember that gabriel map?
21:36 Desperate-kun: yeah
21:36 wcx19911123: it's qualified and someone pointed out something about timing
21:37 wcx19911123: I'm not sure about (that)[https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/5867936]
21:37 Desperate-kun: you mean the 9/8 time signatures
21:37 wcx19911123: yep
21:37 Desperate-kun: yeah, it would be better to change it. you cannot put the correct time signature because osu doesn't allow it, but you can put metronome resets
21:38 Desperate-kun: wait a moment
21:38 wcx19911123: k
21:39 Desperate-kun: yeah, ranking criteria says If an incorrect time signature would last for more than 2 bars, add another timing section to fix it.
21:39 Desperate-kun: so here it's 4 bars
21:39 wcx19911123: I see..
21:39 Desperate-kun: i will disqualify so it can be fixed
21:40 wcx19911123: ok
21:42 wcx19911123: what should I do later? do I have to still find 2 bns to do the process o.o?
21:42 Desperate-kun: yeah but it can be the same BNs as before
21:42 wcx19911123: ok, thanks
21:43 wcx19911123: didn't realize the timing sections before.. my fault orz
21:43 Desperate-kun: my internet is slow right now
21:43 Desperate-kun: i hope this works xD
21:44 wcx19911123: mine is always slow lol
21:44 Desperate-kun: oh yes it worked
21:44 Desperate-kun: yeah happens
21:44 wcx19911123: btw there's some people think that my map is full of random stuffs.. how about you think of this o.o?
21:47 Desperate-kun: i already told you, i think the calm sections have some random jumps that don't fit in
21:48 Desperate-kun: and some sections where the music is messy, seem random in the map, but it's fine
21:48 Desperate-kun: because it fits to the music
21:48 wcx19911123: I see
21:48 wcx19911123: anyway not full of mess right?
21:49 Desperate-kun: nono but if a lot of people thinks it needs improvement you should try to clean it up a bit
21:49 wcx19911123: ok, I'm doing that always

Gaia wrote:

wcx19911123 wrote:

I'm not only make map looks great or plays well, I also make them fit the song

alright so your theme is something totally wacky and gimmicky and that's valid, but you've also sacrificed "looking great" and "playing well" in order to achieve that. What separates a well mapped gimmicky map apart from this one? Structure. Yes the structure i kept emphasizing over and over again. You've been mapping for longer than most of the people here, you should know what you're doing, yet it's quite clear that this map lacks cohesiveness in many different ways.

wcx19911123 wrote:

I did overlapping objects somewhere to keep the flow constantly, to make the feeling of playing the diff smooth. in this case, sometimes I have to overlap them a bit. 100% stacked objects are much harder to read so I didn't do this. it might be the reason that you think the overlapping objects are unnecessary

oh. alright lets see then.
00:13:088 (1,2,3,4) - well these are a bunch of kicksliders so they don't really play this way, but still structurally they can be drastically improved with more symmetry
your fixed version looks better, but it actually only looks better, the quality of playability is reduced. you already know how kickslider works and then you increased their spacing for a better looking. this would lead a higher difficulty to play and a worse flow(the angle of jumping is increased too). I want to make here as a ugly looking to fit the song but still has good flow

00:28:802 (1,2,3,4,5) - this one i just don't get whatsoever, what i put is the most ideal, no flowbreak at all pattern, but there are tons of different ways you couldve done this and yet you chose for a pretty weird flow break + overlap pattern
you said the pattern doesn't break flow cuz I overlapped them.. in fact your fixed version is full of obtuse angle and make the flow much worse

00:36:838 (6) - diagram kinda speaks for itself i think, this flowbreak here is not fun to play imo
the flow doesn't break at all, it's a acute angle jumping, it plays much better than what you think

00:39:338 (3,4,5) -
no, your spacing between the 2 sliders are too small to play. reducing the spacing suddenly only for a better looking is exactly the flow breaker

00:44:516 (5,6,7,8,9) -
the flow is good here. the center of 00:44:515 (5) - is at its head(x:288 y:232). the direction of sliderbody won't effect the flow at all only if the slider is short enough(people don't need to move their mouse to hold the slider)

00:45:855 (1,2,3,4,5) -
your version has the similar flow as mine here(slider 3 to 4 doesn't break flow at all due to their length). why I didn't choose a better looking is that I want to use mess pattern(but still has good flow) to fit the song

00:50:230 (1) - ofcourse the place you HAD to place this is on top of the previous slider, instead of something like
which playability wise would be the same
the playability is the same however the readability is not. stack a note over a slider's head would mislead, the readability is lower

--- etc etc i just picked some random ones that stood out to me at a quick glance

wcx19911123 wrote:

if you listen carefully to the map you could find that I'm mainly following the vocal from 00:33:088 - to 00:41:659 - . there's no long vocal except at 00:34:695 - and 00:40:945 - . I sacrifice some regular patterns of reason to emphasis that long vocal, this is why I did that

if you're following vocals then my argument is still valid, 00:30:766 (3,4,5) - for example has the emphasis on the downbeat, but you started the slider on the upbeat, ended on the downbeat for incorrect emphasis, and even overmapped a triple for some reason
do you really read what I said? I said that "I'm mainly following the vocal from 00:33:088 - to 00:41:659 -"!! 00:30:766 (3,4,5) - this one is for downbeat, please

00:31:838 (1,2,3) - if you're following vocals then why aren't those blue ticks mapped?
you'd better read my words again.. this one is following downbeats

00:53:802 (6,7,8,9) - there's vocal on the blue ticks. you're the one that needs to listen closely. i don't even need earphones or slowing it down to hear that.
the vocal is at 00:53:801 - , 00:53:979 - , 00:54:069 - and 00:54:158 - only. if you know japanese well and you would say there's also a vocal at 00:53:890 - . but osu is a worldwide game, the sound at 00:53:801 - and 00:53:890 - is so similar that mostly people won't believe it's a different sound

00:55:230 (7,8,9) - I'm following not vocal only but also drum or bass here, steam is a bit more harder to play so it's better to keep the same pattern as previous one heyhey doesn't this contradict what you just told me earlier? follow drums here ignore vocals here, follow vocals there ignore snares with an extended slider there; sorry but mapping is not that convenient
00:55:319 - this one I added to nothing, the rest of the steam is following the obviously sound in the song. however why I did this it to reduce the difficulty of readability and playability. the total difficulty would raise a bit if I left 00:55:319 - empty cuz the rhythm would be much more complex. 00:54:515 (1,2,3,4,5) - 00:55:229 (7,8,9,10,11) - I made this 2 steams looks similar is to avoid it

wcx19911123 wrote:

if Gaia has further opinions to this, I can discuss with him to explain my thought. however it won't effect the ranking progress at all

It really warms my heart to see someone call me to address some concerns on their map only to completely disregard it for the sake of disagreeing with me. I could go on a lot longer but I'm not interested in wasting my time on something I know isn't gunna be considered at all
I doesn't ignore you, I explained my thought why I did this to you in detail

if you actually care about quality then you should start thinking . think about the stuff you're saying first before thinking about the stuff i'm saying.
I'm sorry but your mostly of opinions are wrong, especially the flow part. you also didn't read my explanation carefully(see your words at 00:30:766 (3,4,5) - and 00:31:838 (1,2,3) - , those words can improv this)
if you still doing this, persist your ideas without considering my explanation. I think this discussion is endless and useless
:gabrielthinking:

Kisses wrote:

I checked to see if these points have been mentioned before but if they have then sorry for repeating.

00:20:944 (3) - This reverse slider doesn't seem to capture anything in the actual song itself. If you're trying to map the talking then it doesn't seem to reflect that really well since they're are different voices and change in tone. In the end it feels like you are playing this slider to nothing
this one is following the vocal well, it does catch the thing in the song

00:51:658 (1,2,3,4) - I just find this extremely hard to read because over the way the circles overlap the kickslider and you didn't have any other pattern like this within the map
I‘m following the vocal at 00:52:104 - , the pattern looks like a bit unique because the song itself also does. anyway the readability is bit hard here but the playability is totally acceptable because I used a slider at 00:52:015 - , there's no clicking object at 00:52:104 -

00:52:372 (5,6,7,8) - When playing these your cursor stays almost exactly still but you have patterns which forces you to move your cursor at 00:50:229 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) . It just feels weird to have 00:52:372 (5,6,7,8) done so differently to the other 3 patterns when no drastic changes occur in the song. It's also rather stale to play imo.
let me explain the part, I used different shape to follow each character in the song with regular polygon and the edges are reducing(square, triangle, line and dot)

Inversal wrote:

Let me ask something here for some more knowledge please. (to be my instructions about mapping)

Feel free if you don't want to fix (But I expect you to answer more than to fix )

01:10:051 (1) - Why you NC'ed here instead of here? 01:10:229 (3) -
01:15:765 (1) - Here too Z
stacked objects with different color would mislead imo(different color in approach circles make it harder to count, the readability would reduced)

I might not have enough mapping knowledge and experience to consider this kind of rhythm selection. But this one (Last diff) is quite awkward to play I thought.

And some more I want to ask. (For some more knowledge)

00:20:944 (3) - Why you mapped this as a return slider?
I put circles at 00:20:229 - and 00:20:587 - , they're all heavy beats and also 00:20:944 - is. if I use a steam instead of the reverse slider, the density of the rhythm would be increased suddenly, that's not good for playability. if I use the single circle there, the part of vocal sounds very lonely to me, so I filled it without clicking object
00:29:962 (5) - ^
this one is similar rhythm, the laugh sound is so obvious that it's not good to ignore it. using reverse slider can make the rhythm more complex but won't increase the difficulty of playability
00:38:087 (4,5,6,7) - I think these one should be a jump like you did on 00:49:515 (3,4,5,6) -
you are the first one mentioned this!! actually I wanted to increase the spacing here a bit but forgot it lol anyway the song sounds a bit more intense at 00:49:515 (3,4,5,6) - than at here. I'll consider to adjust the spacing a bit but still would make it less than 00:49:515 (3,4,5,6) -
00:46:658 (6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13) - These ones are not represents the pitches like 00:18:801 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - And what is the point for mapping that?
I‘m following vocal at here and piano at 00:18:801 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -. a jump between at 00:47:015 - is to follow the downbeat(also the tone of vocal is a bit higher at 00:47:015 (10,11,12,13) - than at 00:46:658 (6,7,8,9) - )
00:47:551 (2) - Should not be a return slider
the end would not fit better with the song compare with a clicking object indeed, however I just reduced the difficulty at this slider cuz it's coming out just after a steam, it would be a hard part if I change it into a tickslider and a circle, but the song here is not that intense to me to do that

Please give me some answer senpai.
tbh, I think you have potential in modding :3 (or maybe also in mapping I guess)
I'd like to have a check to your map, if you would like please contact me xD