Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria

[proposal - osu!taiko] - add spread size exceptions to drain time requirements

posted
Total Posts
14
schmidley
124 posts
Joined October 2015
Topic Starter
schmidley
This is a fairly similar proposal to the one genjuro made, but with a different solution. link because mei is lazy

I think the drain time rules in their current state don't account for high star rating maps in a way that's reasonable.

I think the system currently actively discourages harder maps below 5 minutes because of the requirement to make a spread down to at least an oni (which requires more and more effort the harder the top diff is), so I think the drain time rules should follow in the footsteps of catch and add an exception for spread sizes at different drain times.

The current drain time rules are as follows
If the drain time of each difficulty is...
...lower than 3:30, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Futsuu.
...between 3:30 and 4:15, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Muzukashii.
...between 4:15 and 5:00, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than an Oni.

And I think they should be changed to this

If the drain time of each difficulty is...
...lower than 3:30, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Futsuu or provide a proper spread containing at least 4 difficulties.
...between 3:30 and 4:15, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Muzukashii or provide a proper spread containing at least 3 difficulties.
...between 4:15 and 5:00, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than an Oni or provide a proper spread containing at least 2 difficulties.

I think this tackles the issues that were brought up with genjuros proposal about lower difficulties potentially being abandoned, as most maps will still be required to have them in their spreads with this change, but this opens the door to hard maps that don't need upwards of 40 minutes of drain time just to be rankable.
Last edited by schmidley , edited 1 time in total.
meiqth
Nomination Assessment Team
578 posts
Joined June 2018
meiqth
can you link genjuros proposal somewhere i hadnt read it and took more than 2 seconds to find out where it was

anyways, i'm pretty much down aside from that. i think adding the lenience of not needing to make a mid 4* when you already put the effort into a 5/6/7/8 (or whatever) is a balanced choice for encouraging more/better/synonyms harder mapsets for a variety of the playerbase at the cost of a little accessibility, which will still happen in the current landscape anyways as a majority of sets i see need to, or already make full spreads regardless of the rule

also the grievances in the genjuro thread about 1) learning low diff rules (many experienced players know a good map, not a good low diff) and 2) the fact that low difficulties are rushed / "low effort" in the first place. which i'm of the opinion of if it's not good then dont force it to be there if you can help it
generally most people were in favor of the sentiment there (except for a vocal few) so i think entertaining this'd be cool

sort of a ps but i feel like a "proper spread" should be defined first because right now it's a little redundant as an 8* to a 9* is considered an alternate inner oni rather than a step down under the current rules (see the 4 -> 7* maps or whatever)
Lycanthrope
313 posts
Joined December 2017
Lycanthrope
+1, a combination with that and a little lower drain time requirement would benefit greatly for taiko's ranked section and it's top players
Hivie
osu!taiko Paragon
1,080 posts
Joined March 2019
Hivie
ehh I dunno

osu!taiko has an issue with player retention, and having even less lower diffs would augment that problem, and I don't know if we should go that route yet. Besides, unlike other modes, we have a specific spread leniency that allows us to not have bridge difficulties from Oni and above, so you're allowed to do a 2-3-4-8* spread for example.

I feel like mapping lower diffs is a chore (like doing the dishes after a good meal a.k.a the top diff), but I don't think it's problematic enough where it hinders the rankability of higher difficulty maps unless the mapper is actively lazy and refuses to even get a GD.
Doug
Beatmap Nominator
303 posts
Joined January 2019
Doug

Hivie wrote:

ehh I dunno

osu!taiko has an issue with player retention, and having even less lower diffs would augment that problem.
Hmm, I'm not sure that the problem with keeping players is in not mapping low diffs, since most players give up at around muzu level due to the gap between muzu and oni that tends to be large in a general context.

I understand that low diffs are meant to attract new players, but being forced to map them at a high drain time is somewhat discouraging (I say this because I've already given up mapping some songs because I had to map low diffs and didn't want GDs).

I think this could be a viable alternative, but I'd still try to propose something further, suggesting something like lower 30 seconds on the minimum drain time. I think this could encourage mappers to try to map more songs that end up a few seconds below the current minimum drain times. And since some BNs discourage sets with GDs, this could also encourage mappers to map more diffs in their own sets (I don't see this as a problem, just mentioning it).

I think this could be viable, even if it's applied on a temporary way, as was the case with osu!catch 2 years ago, which lowered the requirements so that it could attract more mappers and players and succeeded, since it now has a higher average number of plays per map than taiko.
meiqth
Nomination Assessment Team
578 posts
Joined June 2018
meiqth
to hivie: this is not a revolutionary change that'll upset the muzukashii economy or anything

with the amount of a) sets that are entirely low diff and b) high star rating sets that voluntarily go out of their way to make low difficulties, i really dont see a realistic issue with your low difficulty playerbase points? there's a sparse amount of longer sets that would benefit from this (Mmmmmmm for 4:15+ [only of this year] and cirno math class for 3:30+) - only realistic fear is having a ne! ko! but according to you, this does nothing as 2-3-4-9 is a proper spread and 6-7-8-9 is not as theyre all inner onis / optional diffs like how a kantan is never required ("linear" would be w/ the sentiment of other modes, but i like the fmox deal)
if youre really unsure about that clause, either by redundancy or worry people will find loopholes, i'm entirely down for nuking the under 3:30 part and having the rest chill as a "test the waters" deal - ill take the hits for enforcing it if uwant


to doug:

Doug wrote:

lower 30 seconds on the minimum drain time
genjuro literally proposed the lowering drain time thing and people said no this is a compromise
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,865 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
OP states what Genjuro tried to achieve but ignored the counter arguments for this in the original post. I will post what has been mentioned at the end of the conversation since it is a back and forth of never ending arguments, where one side argues with experience, while the other just by feeling:

  1. community/forums/topics/1967658?n=28
Unless we have some tangible data from mania (or ctb?) how their rule change effected their respective game modes, I just don't see this conversation going anywhere right now. We have two communities who did the change. Why not bank on their experience instead of arguing about whataboutism. If you guys want that change, I highly enourage you to gather the data and present it here yourself.

As for the suggested rule change, it doesn't work. It only states to have a "proper spread", which also allowes to have 4 Ultra hard Onis which 3 of them can be GDs. And that would mean that the rule of "leniency between GDers" will be activated which at the end means... that your rule change can be circumvented. A backdoor if you will. And to prevent that would mean to make the rule even more complicated than it already is with your suggestion.
snomi
161 posts
Joined May 2019
snomi
mania mapper here who is currently watching a friend learn the game, lack of low diffs is not a problem from what I can tell

also imo the ranked low diffs now in mania are the best I've seen them, but that could also be because recent bns are goated

also re: hivie
I don't play Taiko often, but I've been interested to get into it! the problem for me isn't the lack of low diffs, there's actually a ton and it's great! the problem is getting from muzu to oni, which I don't have as much time anymore to commit to memorizing every Taiko pattern individually so it's quite hard. I don't think this change would cause more problems in the regard of new players, but that's just my subjective opinion as someone who started and stopped playing Taiko

ok there are my 3 am thoughts I will be taking my leave now

edit: oh yeah also especially for higher drain time I don't think it's an problem bcz as a new player I already don't want to play high drain time (4 min+) as much because it often means I don't get to experience as much pattern variety
Last edited by snomi , edited 1 time in total.
schmidley
124 posts
Joined October 2015
Topic Starter
schmidley

Hivie wrote:

ehh I dunno

osu!taiko has an issue with player retention, and having even less lower diffs would augment that problem
As someone who plays every newly ranked map (and has for the last 2 years), there are more than enough low diffs being ranked imho. The **VAST** majority of maps are kmfoi ~2 minute sets. Plus, for example, kantans aren't a required difficulty but there's over 4,000 of them in ranked. People will still map diffs that aren't required usually because BNs themselves hold a standard when it comes to spread quality.

My general idea with this is that this rule doesn't affect most sets because the majority of them aren't able to skip out on the lowest difficulty requirement because the top diff usually only reaches 5 stars, so the drain time requirement still forces essentially the same minimum difficulty in a spread. This change (maybe with some tweaks in the numbers) would basically allow for harder sets to more easily push into ranked as while what you said about a big gap in the spread technically being rankable, you'd be hard pressed to find BNs who wouldn't ask for you to make bridge diffs.

I don't believe this change would affect the number of lower diffs being ranked by any considerable margin, but it would more be there to accommodate the very rare edge case of a 8-9* set getting ranked.
Ryxliee
Beatmap Nominator
392 posts
Joined December 2019
Ryxliee
+1 for this one. I believe such change will improve ranked with better amount of high star stuff and will not affect much on low diffs.

Also I'm a fan of Broadsword proposal about lowering drain cause I believe we don't have any troubles with KFM amount in ranked and usually players of this skill level don't want to play a longer maps (and I believe mappers would keep mapping them even if rule don't force them)
Last edited by Ryxliee , edited 3 times in total.
Lycanthrope
313 posts
Joined December 2017
Lycanthrope

OnosakiHito wrote:

Unless we have some tangible data from mania (or ctb?) how their rule change effected their respective game modes, I just don't see this conversation going anywhere right now. We have two communities who did the change. Why not bank on their experience instead of arguing about whataboutism.
In Genjuro's thread, Secre, who's a NAT for catch, mentioned that this changed positively affected their community; community/forums/posts/9653364.
Snomi, a mania BN, also mentioned that this change has done positive things for the Mania community in this thread.

While there's no statistic about it, I don't see why a high member of the CTB community would say that out of nowhere if it wouldn't be the case. In this post you mentioned that there was a survey for the Mania community asking how they feel about such a change and the majority has also voted that they prefer to relax drain time requirements-- which was finalized a few years ago.

As I already said, I don't understand how a change in lowering drain time requirement is a bad idea for the gamemode to benefit higher ranked players to enjoy the Ranked section more in the forseeable future. There are plenty of mappers that already focus on around less than 2 minute songs with a full spread, which currently is still the most common type of mapsets that get ranked. Just a quick look at the Ranked section for Taiko should be enough.

For other modes I haven't seen any complaints that a vast majority (or even a smaller group of people) disliked this change and/or want to revert this change. Top players lack a good variety of hard songs to choose from and i fail to understand why this change would negatively affect Taiko as a whole. We already have people moving to unofficial places because of the lack of hard content in this gamemode. Please focus on them as well.
Last edited by Lycanthrope , edited 2 times in total.
HexaMaster
26 posts
Joined November 2020
HexaMaster
+1, I approved of Genjuro's previous suggestion and I approve of this as well. There is a severe lack of 10*+ maps for top players to play without DT, so anything that makes ranking these kinds of maps more accessible to mappers would be greatly appreciated by me.
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
317 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
Keeping it short as I have no stake on Taiko's spreads and their rules.

Refer to our latest forum thread discussing the relaxation of our spread rules. We gathered data on how the first relaxation (akin to the one suggested above) affected the maps being ranked.
schmidley
124 posts
Joined October 2015
Topic Starter
schmidley
bumping to get some more thoughts on the matter

Looking at the mania thread it seems to more or less support what I was saying about optional difficulties still being ranked with an increase of harder diffs being ranked due to more lenient rules

my main takeaway here is that this data supports the original assumption that optional lower diffs will continue to be ranked at a high enough amount, even when they are not required.

another takeaway is that the vast majority of ranked maps fall towards the lower end of drain time in which spreads are required anyways

i think this proposal can be worth trying, and within 6 months to a year we can collect data again and see if the impact was detrimental to newer players or not
Last edited by schmidley , edited 1 time in total.
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 14