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[Proposal] Combine unmapped intro/outro in the drain time for the spread rule

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Riana
Beatmap Nominator
1,258 posts
Joined October 2012
Topic Starter
Riana
Currently RC rule allows including break time up to 30 secs in the drain time used for the spread rule.
It allows mappers to leave some parts of the song unmapped without the need to throw some random objects only to fulfill the drain time requirement

The idea can be extended to the intro/outro of the song, by allowing unmapped intro/outro to be combined in the drain time used for the spread rule

Especially for around 5 min maps, calm intro parts are often mapped with like one slider at every 4/1. Long extremely slow parts like that make players reluctant to play those maps again, since they have to repeat the uninteresting part every time they miss at the main part.

My initial suggestion for the change is amending the following part of rules (taken from the standard RC):

Current RC wrote:

Break times may be combined with drain time to meet the above thresholds. For the highest difficulty, this is limited to at most 30 seconds of break time. This does not apply to difficulties with less than 30 seconds of drain time.

Proposed RC wrote:

Break times, intro, and outro not beatmapped may be combined with drain time to meet the above thresholds. For the highest difficulty, this is limited to at most 30 seconds. This does not apply to difficulties with less than 30 seconds of drain time.
there could be better phrasing for this so any idea would be appreciated
  1. "beatmapped" term is taken from audio guideline for consistency "If you do not beatmap the last 20% of ..."
  2. the time used for spread would no longer be drain time or play time so a new term might be needed

I'd like to hear more opinions, there could be many things to consider. e.g. completely silent part of mp3. For the marathon length map, 30 seconds might be short for intro/outro/break combined. Maybe applying it to outro is less necessary
Last edited by Riana , edited 1 time in total.
clayton
1,893 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
break time feels to me like more "part of the map" than intro/outro since you can't skip it. but this whole clause is an arbitrary exception to relieve some annoyances so, if you think including intro/outro would help in some cases, I guess I also think this is ok
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
211 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
I am personally against the proposal, for a few reasons.

For one, the literal definition of drain time is the time between the first and last object of a map, without counting breaks. The break time exception in the RC is already a compromise to this definition. And introducing intro/outro time to it seems to make this whole term a bit useless.

Secondly, you can't really avoid break times or chill parts inside a song if you really do not want to beatmap them. However the intro and outro of a song can easily be trimmed out as necessary, even going as far as having unofficial cuts if anyone so desires.

Finally, this somewhat artificially reduces the spread rule bounds even further. This is like a "30 second free pass" to the current drain time restrictions. And I can already see how people would intentionally leave intros or outros that would've otherwise been cut to not map as many objects.

My takeaway from this is: If the problem are the lengths of the spread rules themselves, it would be way more straightforward to simply suggest reducing those, rather than adding both an extra layer of complexity to the total drain time calculation of a beatmap and a potential way to skirt some drain time in spread rules. Or even increasing the break time exception, though that's going to need a bit more justification. Especially for your example in marathons.
Last edited by RandomeLoL , edited 2 times in total.
SupaV
458 posts
Joined November 2020
SupaV
doesn't this just go against the idea of drain time being "seconds from first to last object outside of breaks between"?

edit: i read randomelol's post and my general gist of ideas are somewhat similar like his.

my thoughts: don't really think the drain time should be a problem if the song is already >5 minutes for example- most songs sit generally right at the 5 minute mark and this rule feels kinda too specific per se, since you'll be mapping the entire thing no? this is said since you seem to be targetting 5+ minute maps
Last edited by SupaV , edited 1 time in total.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,950 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
i dont think this is a good direction it opens up way more cheese

you do not play the outro or intro times. intro time can be skipped directly and outro time can be ignored completely as well. you're not playing or have to sit through it to complete the beatmap

i'd be for basing this off of playtime instead, as in from the first object to the very last and having a guideline against abusing breaktime substantially or something instead
Riana
Beatmap Nominator
1,258 posts
Joined October 2012
Topic Starter
Riana

RandomeLoL wrote:

For one, the literal definition of drain time is the time between the first and last object of a map, without counting breaks. The break time exception in the RC is already a compromise to this definition. And introducing intro/outro time to it seems to make this whole term a bit useless.

SupaV wrote:

doesn't this just go against the idea of drain time being "seconds from first to last object outside of breaks between"?
for the term "drain time" I've already mentioned briefly that it wouldn't be actual "drain time" anymore, but I think it's just a matter of terminology.

RandomeLoL wrote:

Secondly, you can't really avoid break times or chill parts inside a song if you really do not want to beatmap them. However the intro and outro of a song can easily be trimmed out as necessary, even going as far as having unofficial cuts if anyone so desires.
I don't think it's different for the break time case. Without that break time exception, mappers could still leave those parts as a break time, at the cost of more spread requirements.

RandomeLoL wrote:

Finally, this somewhat artificially reduces the spread rule bounds even further. This is like a "30 second free pass" to the current drain time restrictions. And I can already see how people would intentionally leave intros or outros that would've otherwise been cut to not map as many objects.
Artificially extending mp3 for spread is already not allowed, so you cannot use it to get free pass for an arbitrary song. It's the same as when the break time thing is applied, the song is providing enough length for reduced spread requirement, and the mapper is given an option not to map it, while they can lean toward mapping it when it is unnecessarily

also I don't really think people crop mp3 to save space anyway, when they don't map intro/outro unless it's really long

SupaV wrote:

my thoughts: don't really think the drain time should be a problem if the song is already >5 minutes for example- most songs sit generally right at the 5 minute mark and this rule feels kinda too specific per se, since you'll be mapping the entire thing no? this is said since you seem to be targetting 5+ minute maps
yeah maybe, but the break time exception is mainly focused on maps that have drain time around the borderline as well.

Okoratu wrote:

i dont think this is a good direction it opens up way more cheese

you do not play the outro or intro times. intro time can be skipped directly and outro time can be ignored completely as well. you're not playing or have to sit through it to complete the beatmap
yeah, but I think drain time as a metric is more about the mapper side burden, the current one rather encourages cheesing the rule by mapping unnecessary parts and makes the play experience worse


like SupaV & RandomeLoL said it could be more of a thing for marathon length song. It's more common for 5:00+ because shorter songs typically don't have very long calm parts.
Last edited by Riana , edited 3 times in total.
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
211 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL

Riana wrote:

I don't think it's different for the break time case. Without that break time exception, mappers could still leave those parts as a break time, at the cost of more spread requirements.
The core difference as I explained is the following:

RandomeLoL wrote:

...you can't really avoid break times or chill parts inside a song if you really do not want to beatmap them... However the intro and outro of a song can easily be trimmed out as necessary
It makes sense inside the beatmap. Otherwise mappers would A) Either have to adapt to longer spread rules, which in some cases yes it would suck B) Cut the chill part themselves and fiddle with the audio, which isn't as easy as a cut at the beginning or end of the beatmap.

Riana wrote:

Artificially extending mp3 for spread is already not allowed...
Correct, however songs, particularly cuts, have extra content to go by at the beginning and end of the file. That's not artificial, it's part of the audio. It's just an extra layer of cheese, as Oko pointed out.

So again, I think this is missing the forest for the trees. The most sensible solutions would either be modifying the break time exception altogether or modify spread rules. Both ideas would need of justification as to why they're necessary/positive and how would they impact the overall influx of maps.
Last edited by RandomeLoL , edited 1 time in total.
Riana
Beatmap Nominator
1,258 posts
Joined October 2012
Topic Starter
Riana

RandomeLoL wrote:

So again, I think this is missing the forest for the trees. The most sensible solutions would either be modifying the break time exception altogether or modify spread rules. Both ideas would need of justification as to why they're necessary/positive and how would they impact the overall influx of maps.
mapping uninteresting parts for the drain time at the intro particularly worsens play experience further than break time imo, since players are forced to play it every try. I personally have a lot of maps that I avoid playing due to long and boring intro. (may need to get opinions from other ppl tho to see if it's a shared sentiment tho)

And reducing drain time requirement can help but I think this is a different issue that can happen with different thresholds (tho the degree of occurrence could vary)


and yea I agree that the break time can still be part of content, but I'm seeing this more from smth occurring due to the mapper side burden when there's an easy way to avoid making extra spread (by mapping intro). And doing so negatively impacts play experience. Rather than having really uninteresting extra contents at intro it's better not to have it imo

overall I see that many ppl disagree
Last edited by Riana , edited 10 times in total.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,950 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Dunno with this line of reasoning we may as well lower marathon time to 4:30 and call it a day

edit:
Yea people forcibly mapping bad outro / intros i think is a problem on their part though, at that length you probably wouldnt need many diffs anyways

I think a marathon beatmap should have a marathon length time that you would need to sit and play the beatmap to completion
Last edited by Okoratu , edited 1 time in total.
Izzywing
osu! Alumni
2,250 posts
Joined March 2016
Izzywing
can't you skip breaks in lazer? at that point the breaks might as well be fake drain time too lol. ultimately though i just agree with clayton
Last edited by Izzywing , edited 3 times in total.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,049 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
I agree with what Okoratu and Randome have said, so I also disagree with the proposal.
McEndu
1,119 posts
Joined March 2019
McEndu

Izzywing wrote:

can't you skip breaks in lazer? at that point the breaks might as well be fake drain time too lol. ultimately though i just agree with clayton
Breaks can't be skipped in lazer.
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