B1rd wrote:

Zexion wrote:

All role PM's have been sent! Game starts at 7/9 confirmations.

confirm

B1rd wrote:

Holy shit guys, no need to lynch the black person straight away. At least disguise your blatant neo-nazism.

beeboy123 wrote:

Me and Dawnsday are masons btw I just wanted to claim that now.

There are no masons. I see through your web of lies, beeboy and Dawnsday confirmed scum team for falseclaiming and bandwagoning.

vote: beeboy123

B1rd wrote:

rEdo wrote:

Vote: B1rd
Semi-serious vote.

5 AM, off to bed. See you in a few hours.

welp, that's sort of rough.

B1rd wrote:

beeboy123 wrote:

Although I really am a Mason and idk why you refuse to believe me.

I have fake claimed Mason 5 - 7 times randomly with other towns and outside one time where the person wasn't reading the thread the town literally always rolled with it either for fun or because they thought my Mason claim made me town.
Once when I was scum someone fake claimed Mason with me and I kinda paniced cause I didn't know what to do, I just rolled with it in the end cause meta but otherwise I wouldn't have cause it seemed like work over nothing.

So idk based on experience alone I would actually say it is a lot more likely Dawn is town but also his tone felt townie to me.

But we are just real Mason's and that was all just hypothetical.

It's just jokes really.

I've been sorta busy so I probably won't bother over-analysing anything for a day or two until I can relax a bit.

B1rd wrote:

Dawnsday wrote:

Can confirm I went along with it since I knew it was just a joke, there's no sense in overanalyzing a bit of banter, It doesn't feel like you're trying to scumpaint me but it's a very poor read either way

To be clear, my post was a joke. You know, that's the point of it having obviously faulty logic.

Though, Dawnsday being defensive, and beeboy over-elaborating on things increases my suspicion.

I'm not getting anything from Hika, or anyone in particular right now. I'd like some of the other people who haven't posted much to say something.

B1rd wrote:

Dawnsday wrote:

I was talking to Sakura LOL

mb

Well it always helps when you address who you're talking to.

B1rd wrote:

rEdo wrote:

I find it really disturbing that Sakura had not responded to me voting B1rd out of nowhere.

beeboy is town.

rEdo wrote:

rEdo wrote:

I find it really disturbing that Sakura had not responded to me voting B1rd out of nowhere.

considering she's been digging into the other posts relatively hard

rEdo wrote:

I think nobody's gonna say it, so I will.

If you were town, you would at least try to search scum in a more productive way than you just did, that is: "woo I think scum's in the wagon that's voting me". You're incredibly self-centered in a game where you have to communicate with other people in order to find the bad guys, because that's even what your Role PM should be telling you. I gave you more than 12 hours to try thinking how to defend yourself, but you did literally nothing with the fact that you're getting voted, except for a weak try to defend yourself. Yourself.

I must note here that I agree with beeboy saying that the act of self-defense is not alignment-inducing. But the difference is that a town player should be trying to defend himself by searching scum. You do contribute to the game, but in a non-constructive way.

You're scum.

rEdo's criticisms seem accurate, I didn't get any scumreads from him at the start, but his latest posts seem really scummy. He gets a few votes on him, and then he's freaking out, claiming scum is bandwagoning him etc. He doesn't seem to be helping town, and it seems like he's townreading beeboy simply because beeboy was defending him. So, either he's scum, or he's just playing a really bad townie. Even if it's the latter, you can't just ignore scumreads because someone was playing bad.
So, my vote's on Dawnsday, though I don't think there's any point in quick-lynching at the moment. Besides that, I'm annoyed at abraker and jess for not posting much. I'd rather lynch deadweight on policy before going after scumreads.

Anyway, despite what Sakura says, I find Frosting's play unusual. It seems completely irrational to follow a vote from the first post, and then he switched it to Dawn for no apparent reason. Really that just feels like vote-parking and laying low. I'm getting a townread from rEdo, seems he's been pretty aggressive in rooting out scum. Pretty much null from other people.


Pretty sure I was voting beeboy still, but it wasn't a serious vote so it doesn't matter. unvote

B1rd wrote:

Dawnsday wrote:

Also since I'm L-2 I'm guessing potentially 1 scum has a vote on me already since I could just be hammered and then have scum either feign ignorance to L-# or just agree with the already stupidly high sus. Woo, go town.

Can somebody explain the L-2 stuff to me, because even after reading the first 3 posts, still have no idea what mechanics that entails. You seem to know. Therefore you know more about mafia than me and a played a few mafia games before on the Tuuba forums. B1rd can vouch for me. Though there was no L-# stuff there, this does shows you kinda know what's up

Sakura wrote:

Btw i like the data you're piling up, it'll be useful, but it's useless if you don't know how to use it.
Also my initial Dawn read was a reaction test, which was piled together with frosty and bee, after i got nothing from the reaction test the only ones i remained with a townread on were bee and frosty.
These posts make a reference to that:

Sakura wrote:

My 3 straight up townreads in general were pretty much rxn testing but most people ignored it, and i already solidified a townread on you due to something else so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sakura wrote:

Hika's not off the wagon :V

Also #NoResistanceToWagon #WagonTooQuick #TotesTown

No really, that's some of the things anti hates, scum does bus you know. IF he's town tho, there's at least 1 scum on his wagon, but i dont see the need for pre-wagon analysis right now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
He's not a townread and there's 2 townreads voting him.

Also you're asking him why is Hika scum when you're voting Hika.

abraker wrote:

Sakura wrote:

First of all, a vote from me would equal to a lynch.

No need to vote. Simply declaring a scumread would suffice

He's not a scumread either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I simply have a hard time reading new players which is why im heavily interrogating and trying to figure out his motives.

Sakura wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Maybe he's just avoiding outing any more connections at this point u.u
All he keeps talking about is "The outcome if im lynched" instead of scumhunting or elaborating on his Hika scumread.
I would want to hear more from Jess but im 100% sure i cant read her even if she posted more.
I want to hear more from abraker tho.
B1rd looks town.

Frostings wrote:

I voted Dawnsday because his posts up to my vote on him were all commentary with little analysis and initiative to find scum
also he keep using the "new to the game" card but I don't believe him

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

@B1rd: There's a lot of false positives that tend to occur, I'm tired of mislynches happening due to them, you probably havent noticed since most of my playstyle change due to it happened with my Alt in MS, but nowadays i dont really do much of a scumhunt as opposed to a townhunt, and while there's still potential people that could be scum i tend to not pursue something hard.
I mean my last game on there i did that to bee for like half the game and then he flipped town and i got demotivated and got hit by Apathy.

There's always the chance of mislynches, but at the end of the day, you have to press on against the most likely person. What you say is plausible, but frankly, you're still just giving yourself license to hang back and stay out of the line-of-fire while being everyone's friend with town reads. In my experience, being neutral and not trying to seek out scum, especially on D1, isn't townie behaviour.

@rEdo, you mentioned that Sakura is playing different from usual, could you elaborate on this?

B1rd wrote:

Frostings wrote:

I like Sakura so far. I put abraker as town because literally no scum cares enough about looking town to create a bunch of random flowcharts in their own time

B1rd would disagreeHe always makes flowcharts. Don't let your guard down against abraker, he's pretty deadly in that he has the same sort of robot-like methodology whether he's town or scum.

But abraker, I would like it if you could redo your posts, I'm not sure what implications you're making, I'm not sure what you mean when you said 'I threw out two posts', nad you're chart is sort of complicated to read.

B1rd wrote:

Dawnsday wrote:

OOp nvm looks like thats was L-1, anyway I've had a great deal of emotional stress over the past few days and haven't really been able to focus on this game at all. Good luck to Town.

*waves flag*.

Anyway, told ya I was going to option with the most favorable town outcomes, also is it THAT hard to wait till I'm out of my bath to explain my reasoning.

Yep, I think you're done for. But what do you mean by Townie Investigator? It's not a role I know of and it doesn't seem to be on the list...

B1rd wrote:

I never had you voted in the first place.

B1rd wrote:

There's hasn't been any unvotes that I can see since the last vote count where Dawnsday was at L-1, so he's is pretty much confirmed lynched at this point.

Dawnsday wrote:

B1rd didn't vote me, take him as town. imo. All his posts have given me Townie agenda vibes

To be fair, I said I would have voted you but I didn't because it was L-1. Since it seems you're town, sorry for the mislynch, even if it was partly your fault. Well, now you know at least not to make the same mistakes in the future.

Hika wrote:

Oh, bird has always been town to me. I don't see how he couldn't be

lol, I'm not gonna complain about a townread, but I'm not sure how you can feel so strongly, I don't think you can just rule anyone out so early in the game.

B1rd wrote:

Hika wrote:

@bird

just check out your first few posts and try to argue to me why you wouldn't be.
it's not as bad as dawn townreading jess after one post lol

I'm not sure really, my first post was pretty much a joke, but it seems whenever I joke people make all sorts of wild implication from them.

Dawnsday wrote:

"partly" no it was all my fault and I am sorry to town. Emotional stress tilted me irl and I fully take my own blame, even if I made true claims it is still my fault.

@Dawnsday may you find more peace in the next life

Talking about implications, I'm sure there are plenty to be made from this lynch, though I guess I'll wait to the next day to theorise. Honestly with this game, trying to figure out the implications of all the posts and possible scenarios just makes my thoughts go off on tangents and get convoluted and confusing.

B1rd wrote:

I'm also waiting on a response from rEdo about Sakura, and I'm waiting for Sakura to respond to a post in which I implicated her, which she seemed not to bother to respond to for some reason. Also Hika, maybe you can elaborate on how she is acting different from usual this game.

For some reason rEdo hasn't been on for 45 hours, I assume rEdo has RL stuff but that's still pretty poor form. And about jess, that's a bit of headache... I think we can deal with that next the next day.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

B1rd wrote:

I'm also waiting on a response from rEdo about Sakura, and I'm waiting for Sakura to respond to a post in which I implicated her, which she seemed not to bother to respond to for some reason. Also Hika, maybe you can elaborate on how she is acting different from usual this game.

For some reason rEdo hasn't been on for 45 hours, I assume rEdo has RL stuff but that's still pretty poor form. And about jess, that's a bit of headache... I think we can deal with that next the next day.

I'm not sure what post you're referring to, all I remember is you asking rEdo about me playing different than usual.

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/5815668

This was the post. Though I won't be doing much more analysing today, I'll be going to bed soon.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

I don't know if you want my MS Alt meta or what, but sure i can provide that, im just not sure if you're interested on meta diving that or not:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=26607

I tried to look into this, but it says I need to make an account. And when I tried to make an account, it says I have a 'malicious IP', probably because I have my VPN on, and that my account will need to be activated by an administrator. So do you mind giving a couple examples of you playing how you said you did? Not that I don't believe you would straight up lie, but it doesn't hurt to double check.

Sakura wrote:

@B1rd: how experienced is abraker at mafia (the general game, not the alignment)?

I'm pretty sure he played his first game on Tuuba with me, it was the first and only game I've lost thus far (I died early, abraker was scum) I've played 4 games and I'm pretty sure he's played less than me, unless he's rusing us all and lying about not knowing mafia terminology. But even if he hasn't played many games he's still someone to watch out for IMO. I definitely don't want to lose to him again.

abraker wrote:

B1rd you need to post more

B1rd wrote:

I'd rather lynch deadweight on policy before going after scumreads.

I need to sleep as well, it's been 5 hours hold your horses. I do think what I'm said is generally what I'm thinking at the moment, I like to vote bad/scummy/inactive players on policy, because they're pretty much always bad for town, a big liability at lylo, at there's always a chance they're scum. Whereas, with traditional scum is very indefinite and there's always chances that you will lynch completely innocent people.

So I'm thinking I will vote Jess, but I'll refrain for the time being because I'm still reading the chat and trying to figure out when rEdo would claim. I had a good townread on rEdo previously, for examples https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/5813962 comes across as a strong town post (even if Dawnsday was actually town), however I don't understand why he would claim bulletproof if he was town. He also has been posting very infrequently recently, which isn't a good sign.

B1rd wrote:

*while traditional scumhunting

B1rd wrote:

Wait, am I reading this right, and hika CC'd (counter claimed) rEdo's 1-shot bulletproof claim? Well, I guess the lynch is pretty much decided for today then. One thing I would like to point out though, that if rEdo exposed himself to draw out a CC, I'm pretty sure that he would be confident that his scum partner can't be traced back to him. Considering he actually threw some suspicion at abraker straight afterwards, it's some sort of WIFOM situation, but perhaps it is abraker who is his scum partner. Also, I'm pretty sure mafia wouldn't carry out this tactic unless they thought that their other member was in a pretty safe position right now.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Ok well first of all the alt name's "Luna Fox"
These are the most relevant games i can remember:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=67451 (Replaced out somewhere due to mod making a derp mod error that made me realize who the last scum was)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67645
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67071 (Replaced in midway through D2 iirc)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=67535
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67413 (Ahahaha if you can read this one props to you, it's very long)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67479
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=63354 (Replaced out at some point mid D1)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=67747 (SK play)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=63492 (Mafia play)

130 pages... sigh. I'll have a look.

One thing I'm liking about this mafiascum site though is you can choose your pronouns, lmao. I swear, If I ever go onto that site I'm gonna rp as a hardcore Tumblrite.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

No B1rd it was setup shenanigans that made Hika think that VT counter claimed 1-shot BP.
Despite how much i tried to explain to make 100% sure it was the case.

Alright... but I think I might have to go over this a bit more. Not sure exactly by what logic VT can counter-claim a PR. Also, your meta game seems consistent from what I checked.

Now as for rEdo claiming bulletproof: it was a stupid move for sure, but I don't actually think it makes him scum. Because of the fact that scum have no way of knowing whether there was no kill because of BP or doctor, I don't know why they would take such drastic measure and sacrifice a player to kill a PR when there is a 50% chance that it is a 1-shot bullet proof townie, who is now equivalent to a vanilla townie now that they've been hit once. That doesn't make sense to me so I'm gonna go on my previous assumption that rEdo is indeed town.

Also I'm not too sure why scum would specifically target people they've townread, maybe it's a meta that I'm unaware of. But I think I've pretty much fully explained the reasons I think rEdo is town.


On to scumreads/FoS:

Firstly, I think beeboy is suspicious. The first reason maybe isn't objective but it's been a personal tell of mine that have achieved results in the past: everyone usually jokes at the start, but when someone continues a jokes past its worth, or continues to act not serious, that is an indicator that that person is scum. And that's what he did with the whole 'I'm mason' thing. The other reason is that he pretty much was a fence sitter the whole first day, and the second day he hasn't done much except jump on bandwagons of already suspicious people. This seems like typical scummy behaviour.

The other person is Frosty, and I agree with abraker on his point. I also inquired about it on d1, but now that I look back at it, it still looks suspicous: frosty seemed intent on lynching Hika for no reason. And then he shifted his vote to the pseudo-Dawnsday bandwagon for no apparent reason either. He said that it was to 'highlight Dawn's behaviour', however in my opinion, Dawnsday was showing no signs of being scum at that point, he only seemed to crack later on when he was under a lot of artificial pressure. That's why I'm more suspicious of people who joined the wagon sooner rather than later.

So about this day 1 bandwagon analysis, it would seem typical if there was one scum on it, and one scum off of it, since IMO beeboy was a fence sitter for no good reason, and frosting inserted himself for no good reason, I think that the scum team is most likely beeboy + frostings. However...


Then there's the issue of jess. Hammering Dawnsday was obviously a stupid move, on top on that she hasn't been active. And from my previous game, it seems she's always like this, basically a village idiot. And I really can't read her at all (somewhat because she hardly ever posts) so for me that is grounds for a policy lynch. With everyone else, I can read to some degree. So, I'm not gonna lose that game because I took the chance and assumed she was town when I have no good way of knowing.

vote: -[Jess]-

And finally, my other reads:

Town:
Sakura, Seemingly typical town play, her meta checks out, all her posts pretty much give me the impression that she's town
rEdo, for reasons explained

Neutral:
abraker: his play so far doesn't seem atypical, though I am a bit suspicious that he didn't realise the possibility of a doctor when usually he seems to be very focused on facts
Hika: I don't know her meta, but basically going off gut feel she seems to be town and acting normal. And hasn't been particularly scummy up to this point, I would put her in townread but I'm still trying to get my head around this whole CC situation

suspicious:
beeboy, frosting, jess, for reasons already explained


Welp, that's a post and a half, lol.

B1rd wrote:

Hika wrote:

My reads thus far. Me and rEdo conf town.
Bird still looking townie to me.

Rest is null for now.

Yeah, I have to say I'm pretty conftown as well

B1rd wrote:

abraker wrote:

My brain is melting

please Lynch me to stop this agony

That was her strategy all along, to win as everyone else lynches themselves from the exasperation of trying to figure out her posts.

I feel like I've done enough thinking for tonight, I hope by tomorrow later today there will be more responses to some of the things I've said.

B1rd wrote:

I guess my wall of text killed the game

rEdo wrote:

If there is a need for a policy lynch, it needs to happen now.

Actually, no. I have a gut feeling that Jess is town.

I don't know why anything needs to happen instantly, I'm still waiting on replies from other people. I'm glad jess replied, but I'm still not sure to make of her post. Ultimately the call is up to the people who have more experience playing with her; you can go off your hunches, but I'm not gonna take responsibility if we lose because it turns out she's mafia after all. I'd rather lynch her.

B1rd wrote:

Also, I'd definitely like to wait till Sakura is back before we lynch anyone.

B1rd wrote:

@mod, give beeboy a prod

B1rd wrote:

Frostings wrote:

abraker wrote:

Frostings is a compulsive doo-hikey. Sporadically votes based on latest developments. Aka doesnt have an opinion. Playing mind tricks on him might suffice.

Side note: I'm amused by this post. I actually probably will fall for any sort of traps you set for me

Of course we're looking for secret psychology and motives that scum would have. The reason why I've been suspecting you is that I can find very little good rationality behind your posts and actions, and so far your replies haven't done anything to allay my suspicions. You've just brushed off everything said against you with "I don't understand" + smiley face, and then tried to shift the focus by attacking Hika.

B1rd wrote:

Frostings wrote:

How am I not being rational about my votes and actions?
I've only voted twice so far
My first vote was on Hika during RVS, and then I removed my RVS vote to pressure Dawnsday, which I already explained. I was the first one on Dawnsday so it's not like I was pushing a wagon either which someone mentioned I think

Frostings wrote:

I then got suspicious of Hika for putting Dawnsday on L-1 really quick when we already had enough pressure on him, and mentioned Hika could be scum if Dawnsday flips Town, which he did

abraker voted Dawnsday first. And what exactly prompted you to put pressure on Dawnday? Up until then he had hardly made any notable posts. You said you voted him because he hadn't shown any initiative up till that point, but it was only 4 pages in, hardly a reason to vote someone.

And what arbitrary reasoning is saying putting someone at l-1 is scummy? I've already said, but Dawn was scummy near the end, not at the start. It's not like anybody could know jess would hammer.

B1rd wrote:

abraker wrote:

Suppose I grant you that, but explain the post you threw out addressing nobody out of the blue.

He was responding to one of my posts.

abraker wrote:

What is RVS?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Random_Vote

There's a whole wiki for mafiascum, there really isn't any good reasons for people not to be aware of basic game mechanics at this point.

abraker wrote:

*pasts -> posts

Did you mean pasta? hmm seems we have an Italian Mafiaso on you hands here. Oh yes I saw your scumslip, I'm on to you mate.
...


About frosty, I feel like he's been playing a bit weak but I wouldn't say he's definitely scum, mainly because if Sakura's meta analysis is correct (https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/5812335/) then this is somewhat normal play for him. I'd be on board with bandwagoning him but he wouldn't be my first choice at the moment.

I'm wondering why beeboy suddenly VL/A'd right after Sakura in exactly the same way, it could just be a coincidence but it could also him buying himself time to think of way to get out of the heat he's in.

B1rd wrote:

abraker wrote:

If I eat sushi pizza, does that make me an Italian yakuza scum?

Ah so you admit your guilt. Was getting caught part of your plan?

B1rd wrote:

Frostings wrote:

I was under the impression beeboy was being town read by many
Where did this come from?

It's not my responsibility to read the thread for you. Everyone should do that themselves.

B1rd wrote:

It was one of my main points in my post https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/5822470, sometimes you can miss small thing, but you can't of missed that. It just shows that frosty didn't bother to read it properly.

Firstly, I think beeboy is suspicious. The first reason maybe isn't objective but it's been a personal tell of mine that have achieved results in the past: everyone usually jokes at the start, but when someone continues a jokes past its worth, or continues to act not serious, that is an indicator that that person is scum. And that's what he did with the whole 'I'm mason' thing. The other reason is that he pretty much was a fence sitter the whole first day, and the second day he hasn't done much except jump on bandwagons of already suspicious people. This seems like typical scummy behaviour.


So about this day 1 bandwagon analysis, it would seem typical if there was one scum on it, and one scum off of it, since IMO beeboy was a fence sitter for no good reason, and frosting inserted himself for no good reason, I think that the scum team is most likely beeboy + frosting

So to recap my point about beeboy, he hasn't really done much, I mean he's asked a few questions but his posts just seem superficial without any serious conviction for finding scum. Read his ISO and you will see what I mean. He hasn't gotten his hands dirty and he's pretty much stayed in the sidelines.
Considering I have townreads on quite a few people already, that just intensifies my focus on any scummy behaviour on the remaining people. Like, I may make mistakes sometimes, but I'd be extremely surprised if none of my scumreads were scum.

B1rd wrote:

Also, idk maybe a few people have townread beeboy, ok looks like it's case closed then

B1rd wrote:

Frostings wrote:

I actually don't think Hika could make this up as scum
it doesn't really make sense to claim VT as scum on Day 1 and then push that onto Day 2 to try to "CC" a claimed BP in an open setup, especially after the Tracker flip

It's a pretty believable townslip, I'd be really really surprised if Hika flipped scum

Did Hika actually claim VT on D1? Seemed like a joke to me. I also agree that it would be unlikely that Hika could pretend to townslip so much as scum.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Some people were supposedly waiting for me and only Hika and abraker ever replied.
Hmm...

Sakura wrote:

Oh wait Frosty and B1rd did as well

I'm sort of just waiting to hear what other people think over my comments about beeboy being scummy

B1rd wrote:

-[Jess]- wrote:

So that all my fault for not contribute enough ,I can understand that why it's all happen to me and since I am very terrible at say out of my thoughts
vote:Jess If you want to

...well you're not gonna do yourself any favours by self-voting and sulking (or town, for that matter). Jess, maybe you should consider that if you made more of an effort to improve your gameplay you wouldn't always end up in situations like this in the first place.

B1rd wrote:

rEdo wrote:

abraker wrote:

-[Jess]- wrote:

So that all my fault for not contribute enough ,I can understand that why it's all happen to me and since I am very terrible at say out of my thoughts
vote:Jess If you want to

Jess, why...

Either you are a scum who now sees no way out
Or you are the second most unfortunate and extremely stupid townie

Who's the first one?

Dawnsday, I assume.

B1rd wrote:

beeboy123 wrote:

B1rd wrote:

I'm wondering why beeboy suddenly VL/A'd right after Sakura in exactly the same way, it could just be a coincidence but it could also him buying himself time to think of way to get out of the heat he's in.

This is against the rules.

I'm not gonna read/reply to everything at this point in time, but I've read every rule, and there is nothing that remotely pertains to this.

B1rd wrote:

beeboy123 wrote:

I said I wasn't a mason 16 posts into the game so I didn't really do what you were saying at all.
I mean I am pretty sure I said Dawnsday was town all of day 1 so I am not exactly sure what I fence sat on.
And all I have done this day phase was the vote counter claim and ask people questions. I don't see how voting a counter claim is scummy and I don't know why you are referring to bandwagons as a plural when I haven't voted anyone else.
Like literally nothing you said is true.

Fence sitting is the wrong word. However, a lot of the time scum usually like to have one on a bandwagon, one off it. And like rEdo mentions, they also like to get town cred from accurate analysis at the start, and they don't have any incentive to push a lynch rather than just makes themselves look like townies. You fit both these bills. And what have you done to make me think you're town? You've done pretty much nothing in the way of serious scumhunting, besides floating around and asking a few questions.

So a lot of people so far seem to be townreading beeboy, but I'd like some more explanation of this rather than just "good vibes".

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

My current main question is "Does anyone have any reason to believe Jess is town?"
I already got your opinions on Hika.

Not really, and since my strongest townreads were the first ones to vote her that gives me a good feeling about a jess lynch. And I think that's the best we're gonna get at this point, town is really disjointed at the moment with everyone having different reads, I imagine it's a playground for the scum to sway the vote in any direction they please, if we wasn't voting jess.

B1rd wrote:

Also Sakura, do you actually think Hika is scum? Because if you have a strong case, that's all well and good. But if you're just going to relentlessly pursue a small chance that she's scum when most others don't think so, I feel like that's just gonna break up the cohesion of town, especially when you're one of the most conftown at the moment and could take a strong leading role in scumhunting.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

This may sound weird, but literally the only reason i want Jess lynched is because, 1) she did a scummy move and should be punished for it, she could still be scum after all. 2) She's literally not contributing anything. 3) She being here is frustrating me to no end because i literally can't tell with her posts what her alignment might be, and she still has potential to flip scum.

I've already avoided joining games with jess on them before because people give her a pass for BS like this.

I feel like if we give her a pass after what she did she's just going to do it again, she could be scum AtEing, she could be town AtEing, and i dont fricken know, but if she's town and we encourage that kind of play, who's to say she won't do the same as scum, and no one would bat an eye on it.

tl;dr: Jess is just frustrating to try to read, and people in here like to give her a pass for doing all the scummy stuff she does, in MS she would already been WotC'd or even WotM'd out of games or people would just simply lynch her for things like that.

I haven't played a whole lot with Jess, so I can't really comment on her meta play, but I'd say there's a fair chance she's scum. And at the end of the day, I'd rather mislynch Jess than leave her alive and mislynch another townie. I'd be on board with lynching beeboy instead if other people with more experience have good townreads on Jess, but I can't really see that happening at this point.

Sakura wrote:

I did something like that back on Sunday.
But all people said is that her "townslip" made it impossible for her to be scum.
At the top of that post also showed a potential "scumslip" in the form of CCing as Mafia Goon.

I'm not 100% sure on her being scum, if anything it's more like... 50-60%, what i do know is that players always do something for a reason, whether the reason is subconcious or concious could heavily lead to alignment relevant information, which is why i still wonder "why did she CC as VT, when there wasn't a VT on either of the row or the column".
The same could be said about her constant rejecting of PRs using their abilities on her, and her false meta call that was later invalidated anyway before anyone investigated it in depth.

I'll admit I haven't followed your analysis 100%, but from my point of view it just seems like it'd be unlikely for scum to do such a thing and cause a scene like Hika did. Scum tend to be more cautious and think out their moves, so I think it's unlikely that they'd do something like that.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Also im gonna drop my pursuit of Hika in favor of cohesion, i did notice some differences in her play in Lovers mafia, i just dont understand why people think she townslipped, but since a lot of my townreads (Frosty, B1rd, rEdo) seem to think so i'll let it go as im starting to feel like im beating a dead horse here. But if she does turn up being scum, expect a word of "I told you so!" from me at endgame.

This puts me in here:

Town:
rEdo
B1rd ^
Frostings ^

Leaning Town:
beeboy V
Hika ^

Leftovers:
abraker
Jess

(the arrows just indicate changes across my reads from their last position)
If Jess is town then im going wrong somewhere.

Editor's note: And who is the second one???
While we do have time, why do you two have a town read on Frostings? I had a scum read on him before, and I haven't analysed frosty's recent posts, but him being scum is still a possibility IMO.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

I mean i have a hard time explaining my townread on Frosty
Just like people have a hard time explaining why they think Jess will flip town from the self vote despite it being null at best.

Havent you ever heard about gut?

Sakura wrote:

abraker wrote:

To be clear, it's as if the subtle mentioning of "Frosty might be scum" sets off a "I know he's not from experience" trigger

A subtle mentioning?
Is this subtle to you?:

B1rd wrote:

While we do have time, why do you two have a town read on Frostings? I had a scum read on him before, and I haven't analysed frosty's recent posts, but him being scum is still a possibility IMO.

Sure, but you're not going to impress anyone else with contradicting reads with your only reasoning being your "gut feeling".

Sakura wrote:

Literally the only reason for people to say she's town is

"OMG SHE SELF VOTED SHE'S SO TOTES FRUSTRATED AND TOWN"

I know the deal trust me, it's a strategy i used to use too, and no it shouldn't be encouraged.

Lol. I read that in the thread you linked and I was thinking of quoting it myself.

B1rd wrote:

Welp, seems it's gonna be a long day. I guess I'm gonna have to do a fair bit of reading to reevaluate my read on Hika.

rEdo wrote:

Nobody hammers that shit before I wake up. I double dare you.

I can just imagine, we get to L-1, Jess hammers, then we lynch Jess but it turns out she's town and we lose the game

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

[b]Unvote
Vote: beeboy[/b]

Hika wrote:

bboy is a good vote though. so i'm going to pursue it as well.
Vote:bboy

well that saves me from doing a lot of reading in a relatively short amount of time

unvote
Vote: beeboy123

I'm fine with a beeboy lynch, if the momentum's gonna swing that way. Though @Sakura, what made you change your mind to vote beeboy over Jess so quickly?

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

B1rd wrote:

well that saves me from doing a lot of reading in a relatively short amount of time

unvote
Vote: beeboy123

I'm fine with a beeboy lynch, if the momentum's gonna swing that way. Though @Sakura, what made you change your mind to vote beeboy over Jess so quickly?

Something feels weird about beeboy's play.
I'm used to him being more involved and he just seems to be taking the sidelines lately, i know his irl is though rn, but it still feels weird.

Yeah that's pretty much the same reasoning I think he's scum. He's definitely my strongest scumread, though I'm gonna regret that we didn't lynch Jess if it turns out he's town after all.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

I spent most of D2 trying to lynch Jess and everyone kept saying she would flip town after her stunt.
If you get rekt by her not my problem anymore, im tired of trying.

Sakura wrote:

Literally tired, sorry, it was half rant.

Wasn't really a rant. Well the thing with Jess, I don't really care about "punishing" her for bad play, but I'd have preferred to vote her since she's played pretty anti-town and I can't really tell whether she's scum or not. But I'd rather take the chance and lynch someone who I actually think is scummy, especially when people like rEdo who have played with her more actually do think Jess is town.

If someone is just playing bad, I'd rather just not play with them in the future. (though I can't really say I like this WotC thing, I'd prefer to just say who I didn't want to play with upfront)

B1rd wrote:

beeboy123 wrote:

A) I am still waiting for b1rd to respond to my post where I called his entire read on me false. Like his read on me was 100% confusion of my posts and if he actually spoke to me I don't think he'd think I am scum.

Pretty sure I did https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/5835756

beeboy123 wrote:

I am tired of defending myself from garbage on this site.

I would say I am a blatant counter wagon to scum and this wagon happened so fast despite Jess doing literally nothing and being pretty scum read that I couldn't possibly flip scum but no one listened to me when I said Dawnsday was town for similar reasons so I guess you guys can have fun continuing ignore me and lose this game.

I don't think your counter-wagon claim holds much weight when pretty much all the people voting you are strong town reads, at least to me, and who were actually voting Jess before. It's not one else fault that you've been lurking, now you're just complaining and blaming everyone else now that you're under pressure for valid reasons. Sick of defending yourself? You've put like half the effort in defending yourself than some other people have done pursuing one scum read. And even less actually following your own. This reaction pretty much just consolidates my scum read on you.

B1rd wrote:

Also I'm pretty sure with me, Hika and Sakura that's only L-2, of course it would be easier to tell if someone would post vote updates more frequently

B1rd wrote:

beeboy123 wrote:

B1rd wrote:

beeboy123 wrote:

A) I am still waiting for b1rd to respond to my post where I called his entire read on me false. Like his read on me was 100% confusion of my posts and if he actually spoke to me I don't think he'd think I am scum.

Pretty sure I did https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/5835756

beeboy123 wrote:

I am tired of defending myself from garbage on this site.

I would say I am a blatant counter wagon to scum and this wagon happened so fast despite Jess doing literally nothing and being pretty scum read that I couldn't possibly flip scum but no one listened to me when I said Dawnsday was town for similar reasons so I guess you guys can have fun continuing ignore me and lose this game.

I don't think your counter-wagon claim holds much weight when pretty much all the people voting you are strong town reads, at least to me, and who were actually voting Jess before. It's not one else fault that you've been lurking, now you're just complaining and blaming everyone else now that you're under pressure for valid reasons. Sick of defending yourself? You've put like half the effort in defending yourself than some other people have done pursuing one scum read. And even less actually following your own. This reaction pretty much just consolidates my scum read on you.

So as scum why exactly would I go out of my way to draw attention to myself and defend Dawnsday when I literally could have let the day end incredibly early by doing nothing and you know siding with people. But hey I guess defending Dawnsday doesn't count as scum hunting. Pushing Jess doesn't count as scum hunting and I was abusing the VLA system to lurk even tho Sakura confirmed I have real life things preventing me from entering the thread.

Defending Dawnsday is super easy to rationalise as scum. I mean lots of things are D1, but it's that in combination with other things. You can't just blame all your problems on RL things, firstly, you knew when you joined the game that it would be a commitment. And really, it only takes like an hour a day to be completely up to date with the game. You can't spare that? It's just weak excuses. If you really couldn't spare enough time to play the game you should have just replaced yourself.

B1rd wrote:

Hika wrote:

Unvote

Why'd you unvote beeboy?

B1rd wrote:

Frostings wrote:

Vote Jess
I'd really rather not lynch beeboy today
He's still in my townread

I still want to lynch beeboy. But Jess or beeboy, at this point I just want to lynch someone.

B1rd wrote:

rEdo wrote:

B1rd, why beeboy over Jess?

It's that I think beeboy is scum, but with Jess it's more I think she might be scum, but I'm not really sure. I'm fine with voting Jess too, but that's more of a conservative option, I'd prefer to go with my scumreads.

Welp, seems that it has swung back to a Jess lynch after all, I'm fine with hammering when everyone's ready.

B1rd wrote:

rEdo wrote:

Since Frosty's vote on Jess already, abraker has no objections and both Sakura and B1rd declared their intent to hammer, I think we can end the day.

It's 2 AM and I'm taking a bus to my parents' house and it's time for me to take some sleep at once. Once I wake up, I want to see the flip.

Hammer's on the table.

hold up for a sec

B1rd wrote:

rEdo wrote:

The reason I started the beeboy wagon was because I thought this can't be this simple and that we need to make out the most of today as possible, but in the end it seems like we need that flip.

Before you said that Jess was 90% gonna flip town, did you change your mind or was it just to pressure beeboy? Because I was willing to trust your read and go off the assumption that Jess was town, at least until we get the first scum. Because while there is a chance that Jess is scum, it's also a good possibility that she's just an easy scapegoat to divert votes from scum and get them one day closer to their win condition.

B1rd wrote:

rEdo wrote:

B1rd wrote:

rEdo wrote:

The reason I started the beeboy wagon was because I thought this can't be this simple and that we need to make out the most of today as possible, but in the end it seems like we need that flip.

Before you said that Jess was 90% gonna flip town, did you change your mind or was it just to pressure beeboy? Because I was willing to trust your read and go off the assumption that Jess was town, at least until we get the first scum. Because while there is a chance that Jess is scum, it's also a good possibility that she's just an easy scapegoat to divert votes from scum and get them one day closer to their win condition.

The 90% chance was a bluff, but I do believe there is a chance that she flips town, mainly basing on her AtE self-vote. I'm not sure she's smart enough to pull that out as scum. And I'm hella afraid she actually is a scapegoat, but if that's the case, I'm 99% certain beeboy is scum in that case. I think taking the risk and lynching beeboy today is not a good move for town, and lynching Jess is a much safer one since she might flip scum.

rEdo wrote:

If Jess flips town then Frostings should also be a guy to observe.

Yeah I definitely agree with that, and I've pretty much been suspicious of beeboy and forstings for most of the game. Do you have any other insights or comments about any of your posts before the hammer?

B1rd wrote:

Sorry lol, I was in the middle of a post and then I got a call from the Australian wine company wanting to sell me wines

B1rd wrote:

Funny that just because I won't give me read on beeboy suddenly heat has sprung up on me despite no one even giving any good explanation

Right now I'm feeling quite disillusioned at Sakura and her scum hunting ability. What is it now, the third time she has dropped a strong push on someone for some vague reason. How does "I'M GOING TO LYNCH YOU WITH FIRE" go to "I don't think he's scum"? It makes no sense to me, considering the reason she gives is because beeboy is counter-voting her. When has this ever been a town-tell? Because it seems very apparent to me that beeboy is just in his death throes now, angrily accusing everyone who is voting him as "scum", using the word like 20 times, dragging on obscure arguments about meta.

beeboy123 wrote:

I mean your read on me was complete garbage you just said abunch of things that don't line up with anything you know about me as a player and b1rd just ignored my scum hunting and said I wasn't doing it.

Completely false, I've read you ISO, you have been doing no scumhunting, except for perhaps the "scumhunting" of recently trying to create a counter-wagon towards anyone except yourself. If you really were away and had no real thoughts on who was scum, that wouldn't be so bad. But instead you have just pretended to scum hunt with completely superficial observations that are no benefit to town whatsoever.


Since the town obviously has no coherent direction let me point in the right direction. Lynch beeboy. Don't do it on my word, make your own decision based on his behaviour throughout the entire game, based on his reaction to being targeted now and his bad attempts at counter-lynching Sakura, and based on observations of people like myself and rEdo. He even even just self-voted for pete's sake. It is very clear to me that he's been playing anti-town, he's by far the scummiest player at this point.

I'm not going to vote now, I guess just for the gesture of not taking the game to L-2, but I really don't see any other option but to lynch beeboy. Sure there is a chance that he's town, in that case well done to mafia for playing a good game, but I'm 80% sure he is scum at this point and I'm pretty certain that lynching anyone else will end up in a myslynch and we will lose. Sure we can no-lynch, but frankly I'm sick of indecisiveness and I really doubt that one NK will make the game much easier or reveal much new information. No one has ever won a game of mafia with indecisiveness, consider that there are two scum at play at the moment that are on the brink of winning, and they can easily shift the vote to the person that want. I think I've done as good as job as I can to explain why beeboy is scum, conf-town people like rEdo have backed me up which gives me good conviction that the wagon against beeboy was not created by scum.

Perhaps that was a rant but I'm just annoyed at this farce. I'm also immensely annoyed that suddenly Frostings has decided to VL/A now, I'd rather just replace him at this point.

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

@B1rd: Sorry but i am pretty tired (I mean i couldnt sleep well last night coz i kept thinking of the implications of the possibility of scum bee here meaning one of my friends just backstabbing me without a care about my feelings at all), im not the type of person that takes attacks on me well, and beeboy knows it, yet he kept relentlessly continuing with his attacks on me and on top of that, TAKING FUN out of it. For someone I opened up to and knows how to make me mad, him using this tactic as scum is unbecoming and is something i wouldn't expect from a friend, it'd be like backstabbing me while i have my guard down since i was never seriously attacked in this game.

I don't if you can really make that conclusions about the day 1 NK attempt, considering at the end of day 2 rEdo was actually heavily scumreading the people he was townreading on day 1. If anything it makes it more likely beeboy is scum, considering how hard rEdo was after him.

And I'm really not concerned about any of your personal matters with beeboy, I'm here to hunt scum. I can only respect personal reads to a certain extent, they definitely do not justify going against everything else. I'm not interested in your reasons that you can justify only to yourself, based on your behaviour I'd think you were scum except for the fact that I think beeboy is scum and it seems unlikely to me that you could pull of such a fake drama and a dangerous game of throwing around lynch votes and accusations to your scum partner. Still, I know you two have played a lot and played a lot together so it's not a possibility I'm ruling out.

B1rd wrote:

beeboy123 wrote:

Or we could always Lynch me cause I don't really feel like I deserve to win this game anyway.

What? Are you just giving up, and admitting you're scum?

B1rd wrote:

beeboy123 wrote:

I am giving up yes my posts do clearly show that, still town though.

There is a part of me that also wants to post my role pm cause I don't think it is fair for scum to have a game drastically change due to people being town read for things the scum have almost no control over.

So then you're just content to drag town down with you by indicting yourself?

So be it. I'm not gonna accept excuses like that. vote: beeboy123

B1rd wrote:

Sakura wrote:

What i mean is that i doubt bee scum would be doing what he's doing to me. (or what he was doing i guess)

Well you've said that but like I say it's just a feeling based on your personal experience and it's not something I can verify myself.

Are you really gonna defend beeboy when he's doing the exact same thing you were going on a Crusade against Jess for yesterday? Self-voting and giving up?[/quote]