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Music theory in osu!

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ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

NatsumeRin wrote:

the description of upbeat sliders exactly expressed my feeling about it.

But i can't agree "downbeat sliders are especially dangerous" because we have many places to use it such as:
1. For a rhythm change, to make a variety feeling for players.
2. Using "every hit is on vocal" (circles and slider-starts) technique to map.
3. Because of placements or some other reasons.

Anyway just say it's dangerous is... strange.

Edit: "Short slider is a bad idea." NO.
I will elaborate on those in a little while when I get pictures up. You are correct. Offbeat/upbeat sliders can be used and used well. They are dangerous because if you accidentally put the slider end off of a key note, such as the downbeat, it causes the entire rhythm to mess up.

Short sliders have their place and time, but most of the time if you have a short slider circle rhythm, it would be better to be a circle long slider.
Equivalent_old
210 posts
Joined October 2010
Equivalent_old
xD, it quite easy to browse if you are willing to get your time researching on wikipedia, in fact the time signature that I ask earlier was from wikipedia. The only problem is how to relate them with Osu as I don't have an overnight just to study the theory alone. Well, since you on this ziin, maybe you can consider on this matter too, especially bar:

Syncopation,Rhythm,Bar(Music),Time signature
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
More important than associating musical concepts to hit objects is associating hit objects to musical concepts. As circular as this may sound, the distinction I'm trying to make is that hit objects follow from the music, and not the other way around. The spots where your trends are broken are exactly the places where the music breaks them. Songs can place emphasis on beat 4, in which case beginning a slider there is perfectly acceptable, and can help the map to benefit from the complex rhythmic landscape the music establishes.

I would associate hit objects to musical concepts as follows:
Hit circles are single discrete items, like hitting a drum.
Sliders have a held, but dynamic nature. They associate to legato and glissando. Also, importantly, the slider beginning has more rhythmic importance than its end. (This is why Etnas usually work best beginning on white ticks, and offbeat Etnas need to be used cautiously. See above.) Likewise, ending a slider on beat 4 often works well.
Spinners are a climactic moment, like a sforzendo. They have the opposite rhythmic emphasis compared to sliders: their ends are strong but their beginnings carry almost no rhythmic weight of any kind. Beginning sliders on red ticks or beat 2 is fine, especially if another pattern finishes on beat 1, leading into the spinner.

This concept extends to higher level concepts in music like themes, repetition, retrograde, ..., any of which can be carried through to the mapping, enhancing both.
Jarby
2,963 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby

ziin wrote:

It’s common knowledge that when playing the bass line with any instrument, you can make up almost any rhythm and play any note so long as you play the downbeat in every measure in key.
rust45
1,088 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45
I have to say, this is really nice. And I hope every mapper reads this as it seems we get more and more mappers who don't have any sort of knowledge regarding music theory.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Sakura Hana wrote:

I always thought this would come naturally to mappers, but after remembering some of the maps i've seen lately, i think most mappers def. should read this.
^This.

Also why didn't I see this sooner?
UnderminE
osu! Alumni
4,011 posts
Joined August 2010
UnderminE

lolcubes wrote:

why didn't I see this sooner?
akrolsmir
606 posts
Joined November 2010
akrolsmir
There needs to be something like an EULA that forces you to read threads like this one, and then doesn't let you upload beatmaps until you've passed a test verifying that you understand the stuff.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku

akrolsmir wrote:

There needs to be something like an EULA that forces you to read threads like this one, and then doesn't let you upload beatmaps until you've passed a test verifying that you understand the stuff.
First we need a way to force users to read the EULA. ;)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I'd start by forcing them to read the official rules rather than this tbh XD not all are mappers.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

akrolsmir wrote:

There needs to be something like an EULA that forces you to read threads like this one, and then doesn't let you upload beatmaps until you've passed a test verifying that you understand the stuff.
Hey now, I've gotten 30 maps ranked without understanding any of this!

...Much to everybody's annoyance. <3

Though, why don't we have a thread full of links to the threads new mappers/modders should read at least? There are like a dozen+ now, and you could put it in Pending as an Announcement thread. You could call it a "mapper's/modder's resource".
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
This is very hard to understand for most people and even harder for those who do not speak english.

While I agree there is good information in here, most of it is common sense to people with musical talent, and those people are the only ones who can really understand it.

It also helps a lot to be over the age of 20, which the majority of osu is not.

And finally, there are so many exceptions that this isn't really all that useful in the long run. I just wrote it as a spur of the moment thing to detail how I like to map/play osu. If it strays from these criteria too far, I'm not going to like the map, but that doesn't mean everyone else won't (just take a look at guruppo; I can't play this map with the audio because it's overmapped so badly, but it's got a fairly high rating and 10 more favorites than hates).

Ekaru wrote:

Hey now, I've gotten 30 maps ranked without understanding any of this!

...Much to everybody's annoyance. <3

Though, why don't we have a thread full of links to the threads new mappers/modders should read at least? There are like a dozen+ now, and you could put it in Pending as an Announcement thread. You could call it a "mapper's/modder's resource".
FYI your maps aren't perfect to me, but they're not unbearable, which is a good thing. You also like mapping lyrics which is really hard, so I don't complain much (you'll just probably never get a 9 or 10 rating from me, and I've probably only given out like 20-30).

Pretty much all of my guides are good resources, you can find the links in my user page (which is in my signature). But alas, I can only speak english and half assed spanish, so I can't do much for the large amount of east asian mappers/players.

Also, I second the idea of a "how to" thread. I spent a while trying to find the "how to make a taiko" thread and couldn't find it because we have 4 different forums where "guides" can go.
Equivalent_old
210 posts
Joined October 2010
Equivalent_old


There is a time where some upbeat is louder than downbeat. Where the pattern will goes like 11010. Note that first bold 1 is the downbeat which mean there is Syncopation there. "1' is loud beat, "0" is have lower beat/sound

Quoted from Wikipedia
In music, syncopation includes a variety of rhythms which are in some way unexpected in that they deviate from the strict succession of regularly spaced strong and weak but also powerful beats in a meter (pulse). These include a stress on a normally unstressed beat or a rest where one would normally be stressed. "If a part of the measure that is usually unstressed is accented, the rhythm is considered to be syncopated."
Upbeat sliders

This is what I like to call them. Sliders which start on beat 4 have a serious problem associated with them: if it’s a 1/1 slider, it will end on the downbeat. That leaves the downbeat unstressed, and can be awkward to play, especially when repeated.

If using upbeat slider in this situation, I think it sound perfectly fine. The opposite, Downbeat slider will be sound akward.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Dont u mean that's a 5/4 timing signature? what you describe looks pretty awkard (inb4 2/4)
Equivalent_old
210 posts
Joined October 2010
Equivalent_old
I make it clear :


L= Loud, 0= Low/unstressed sound. Take a look carefully at the long tall downbeat

Edit:
Examples: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/32989
Last edited by Equivalent_old , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
idk but 11010 sounds like 5/4 to me, on the other hand if the first is 1 the rest is 10101010 then it would be 2/4 wouldnt it?
Equivalent_old
210 posts
Joined October 2010
Equivalent_old
Best example I can give : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/32989 Don't say it there is second offset by than
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

Equivalent wrote:

Best example I can give : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/32989 Don't say it there is second offset by than
that song is just like any other song with an unusually loud backbeak. The lyrics do not stress the backbeat, they stress every 3/4 beat, starting on the downbeat.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Just to be picky, the third beat of a bar isn't the downbeat. The downbeat is generally recognised as being the start of the bar, because that's the strongest beat of the bar. That's the entire point of music being divided into bars. I'm fairly sure that peppy uses the term "stanza" as an inaccurate analogue for a bar as well.

The third beat could be considered as being at least half as strong as the start of the bar, but there shouldn't be too much emphasis being placed at this point, when the the music has an obvious 4/4 rhythm. Accenting every third beat creates a marching feel. This is all well and good when the track has that sort of feel, but otherwise, it can be a bit silly.

To clarify: "Accenting every third beat" could be applying a hitsound or starting a new combo/using a particularly large jump inappropriately. This is just my take on it.
Sync
osu! Alumni
1,575 posts
Joined April 2011
Sync

Equivalent wrote:

This is what I like to call them. Sliders which start on beat 4 have a serious problem associated with them: if it’s a 1/1 slider, it will end on the downbeat. That leaves the downbeat unstressed, and can be awkward to play, especially when repeated.
YES thank you so much

I could never think of a way to properly explain this in words
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I'd like to address another couple of things here, because attempting to talk about the wiki page in chat would probably become cumbersome and I don't want to edit the article without discussing it.

Isn't the backbeat nothing more than beats two and four? Even if it can be used to refer to something else (I really doubt this), the general idea is that classical music emphasises beats one and three, while contemporary music uses the backbeat to emphasise two and four--therefore, every beat can be considered as strong. The backbeat can be pushed on the offbeat, but it's not really the same--especially when referring to basic pulse. A good addition could be the explanation that, by following delayed drum hits, a pattern can be made much more interesting.

The upbeat is also usually regarded as being the last beat of the bar--the conductor's baton goes down, sideways for however many beats and then up on the last beat. There is one downbeat, one upbeat, the backbeat and the bar division. None of the beats are the offbeat--offbeats are what create syncopation by occurring between beats, so any red or blue tick can be considered as an offbeat. Also, "upbeat sliders" should be called "sliders which start on a weak beat." Incidentally, this can include the upbeat, but that's not what beat 2 is.

I might discuss this with mm and see if it's worth changing at all. It might also be worth including this, because using 1e+a2e+a etc. is a very efficient way of talking about rhythms.

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