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HP is Unfair

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Topic Starter
Urandel
HP, a stat that measures how consistently well you must play a beatmap just to pass it, is extremely cruel these days. When a player is introduced to Osu!, the lower SR beatmaps, which tend to have HP<3, don't usually bother them. At least, personally it didn't bother me. However, as the player improves and reaches beatmaps with higher HP, such as 4 or 5, it will become more difficult to pass the maps, but so far everything is fine, it is not impossible at this point.
The real problem, which is the main theme of this thread, is how HP>6 maps feel like you have to play absolutely perfectly just to get to the end of them. And this only gets worse when you start trying to play SR>6 maps, which have long streams and jumps, making it even worse with maps that have HP>7. It looks like Osu! HP system tries to prevent new players from trying to reach new heights due to the high consistency needed.
If HP's goal is to make the beatmap more difficult, it doesn't achieve that. A beatmap that you fail by missing 3 notes is not a difficult beatmap, it does not require you to play well, it is an annoying beatmap, which you will pass only by playing it at least a few dozen times.
This is my protest, I respectfully ask for changes to the HP system, so trying to play higher level beatmaps doesn't seem impossible.

PS: This text was translated from Portuguese using Google Translate.
The Cosmic Chef
HP 6 isn't very draining in the first place relative to the maps that use HP 6. Nowadays, the easiest map you'll see that uses HP 6 is probably around 3*. On top of that, most maps don't even use 7+ and those that do are usually easier maps that use higher HP drain to offset the map being easy to play or the map being short (1:00 or less). There are very few exceptions like beatmapsets/963814#osu/2017880 (which I do agree is much for the map). Overall, this doesn't seem like a valid concern at all.
Topic Starter
Urandel

The Cosmic Chef wrote:

HP 6 isn't very draining in the first place relative to the maps that use HP 6. Nowadays, the easiest map you'll see that uses HP 6 is probably around 3*. On top of that, most maps don't even use 7+ and those that do are usually easier maps that use higher HP drain to offset the map being easy to play or the map being short (1:00 or less). There are very few exceptions like beatmapsets/963814#osu/2017880 (which I do agree is much for the map). Overall, this doesn't seem like a valid concern at all.
Well, if you can play the map and have more than 90% accuracy easily, the fact that the map has a high HP will hardly bother you. But what I want to say is: when you try to play a map above your level, if it has HP>6, you probably won't pass it at all, only when you have already surpassed the map's level and there's nothing left to learn from it.
I see that you are an experienced player, so you know that new SR levels bring new patterns of tapping, reading, accuracy and more. And these patterns, combined with a high HP level, make passing the map a extremely difficult task.
So the thing is: a single moment of the beatmap can ruin your entire run, and that's unfair.
And yeah, HP 6 isn't very draining, but it's already on a level that you can't make mistakes.
The Cosmic Chef
I guess you are right that harder maps with higher HP are annoying. However, judging from your skill level, you haven't reached the point where the relationship between maps and HP drain inverses (harder map -> lower drain). Generally, harder maps will start to decrease in HP to make up for the map being difficult to pass. You seem to be at the point where they are both at the highest possible (right before the relationship inverts). Also, if you can't get at least 90% accuracy on a map, you probably need to play easier maps anyway, the HP isn't really the problem.
Topic Starter
Urandel
So is this all a barrier? How long will I have to play, how many times will I have to play, to overcome this barrier? And when I surpass her, will I meet her again in the future?
A personal story from me: I had my first pass on an SR>6 beatmap in June of this year, and since then, there has been little progress towards having my first pass on an SR>7 beatmap. The patterns that appear from that point onwards, such as deathstreams and cross-screen jumps, require that they be played almost perfectly, the first error in their execution dooms the rest of the pattern. It is extremely difficult to learn these patterns, mainly with an HP that severely punishes.
As i said at the beggining, a beatmap that demands perfection is not a hard beatmap, it's a annoying one. You don't learn from it, you just memorize it, and when something like this appear again, you have to memorize again.
The Cosmic Chef
But that's the whole point of the game, it demands high accuracy. The game wouldn't be challenging if you didn't need to get good accuracy. Also unless it's a reading map, why would you need to memorize the map? And overall, just because you have a problem with one map or a few maps shouldn't need to rework the entirety of how HP drain works.
Sophie Twilight
It is rhythm game for a reason, why are you playing maps WAY outside your skill level?

6 digits shouldn't be playing 6* much less 7* maps. The game is already fine as it is, HP drain mechanic is a good option to deter anyone from cheesing hard maps. Makes passes more valuable.

Anyway, if you really can play the map, the HP drain is barely noticeable.

And no, playing maps doesn't make you memorise them, unless you play some AR0/FL shit. That's some blatant false opinion if it is ever one.
The Cosmic Chef

Sophie Twilight wrote:

It is rhythm game for a reason, why are you playing maps WAY outside your skill level?

6 digits shouldn't be playing 6* much less 7* maps. The game is already fine as it is, HP drain mechanic is a good option to deter anyone from cheesing hard maps. Makes passes more valuable.

Anyway, if you really can play the map, the HP drain is barely noticeable.

And no, playing maps doesn't make you memorise them, unless you play some AR0/FL shit. That's some blatant false opinion if it is ever one.
^
Topic Starter
Urandel
I agree. I might be hitting a point of my skill level where I can't get a good accuracy just with some simple tryes. When I was trying 5* maps for the first time, I actually had the same problem, with the same patterns that nowadays aren't a problem for me, and I didn't memorize them. If I kept evolving at this rhythm I would be playing 8* in 1,5 years of experience, and that wouldn't make sense.
Getting better at something truly becomes slower everyday, but there was a moment in time where I ignored this concept.
I believe I will have this same problem in the future, but when this moment comes, I'll think about what was said in this topic.
Thank you for participating in this discussion.
Sophie Twilight
It is good to see that you're being open-minded with our answers. I apologise if I come off strong or arrogant.

I also had the same problem, progressing beyond the 5* is very high learning curve, I can only hope that you won't get hardstuck like me.

I believe that by playing variety of maps slightly above your skill level you'll improve so much in no time, and it's important to not get discouraged throughout the playing so take some break when you feel tired as you play for fun, not for ranks.

glhf!
Riverism
moved to Gameplay & Rankings; the Mapping Discussion subforum is meant for discussion related to making maps

I, too, hate the HP mechanic. At least just let me play the map to the end and then tell me whether I played well enough to pass it! Cutting the map short is so unnecessary.

The numbers themselves are just arcane, too. Two maps with the same HP setting can have wildly different HP drain rates, since it's determined by some kind of complex calculation involving object density, new combo frequency, and more. For example, some maps are perfectly fine for me with HP6, while others are pure suffering even at that value.

I hold the opinion that most modern maps shouldn't set HP any higher than 5, and many of them should set it lower than that, because modern new comboing trends tend to result in higher drain rates. Sticking to the common settings from 2013 isn't sufficient.
KS Wicher
NF exists, also if ur failing on hp6 ur probably just not good enough to play the map
McEndu

Riverism wrote:

I, too, hate the HP mechanic. At least just let me play the map to the end and then tell me whether I played well enough to pass it! Cutting the map short is so unnecessary.
maybe you can look at Taiko no Tatsujin/osu!taiko health mechanics

or just maimai pass conditions
Arme Glenstid
HP made me failed もういいかい? [Rain] with +HR at 90% accuracy, I hate it
AccountWontWork
I love it when I try to practice ar 11 without nf and I just die within 3 secs lol
Mugenq
I personally dislike the HP mechanic with HR, specially how punishing it is on long maps and when you try to skillpush

but honestly you can slap nofail and sort of get away with it

Maps like yuudachi no ribbon though for example are way too punishing with their HP, and even with 95-97% accuracy you might end up dying once or twice and I dislike that
Riverism

McEndu wrote:

Riverism wrote:

I, too, hate the HP mechanic. At least just let me play the map to the end and then tell me whether I played well enough to pass it! Cutting the map short is so unnecessary.
maybe you can look at Taiko no Tatsujin/osu!taiko health mechanics

or just maimai pass conditions
having played these games (or more prevalently jubeat) is exactly why I have that opinion in the first place lol
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