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[Proposal] Transforming the active hitsounds rule into a guideline

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Dabbe_01
66 posts
Joined April 2018
Topic Starter
Dabbe_01
Active hitsounds serve a baseline role of auditory feedback for players to indicate they are clicking objects on time, however quiet hitsounds used intentionally and purposefully could be allowed so long they do not hinder gameplay significantly. One such case was discussed recently on this mapset, which constitutes as a potential violation of RC rules with their current wording

This map includes several 1/8 buzz sliders with hitsound volume starting at 10% and gradually building up to match the song's intensity. In my opinion it is justified due to being held for an extended period and building up to a clearly audible level within 100 miliseconds, well shorter than the average reaction time to auditory stimuli (examples [source 1] [source 2])

As of today, the rules in ranking criteria for all modes state:

  1. All clicked parts of objects must have at least one hitsound which both...
    1. ...has a clear impact, whose peak is delayed no more than 5 milliseconds. normal-hitfinish.wav from the default skin is exempt from this.
    2. ...uses the uncompressed WAV (.wav) or Ogg Vorbis (.ogg) file format. MP3 should not be used here as it is inherently delayed.
    3. This ensures instant audible feedback when clicking objects, synchronising with the song in a way that enables players to determine how early or late they are clicking. [...]
  2. Hitsounds must be audible. Their purpose is to provide feedback, so hitsounds with extremely low volume or samples that blend with a song's samples are unacceptable. Specific game modes list exceptions to this rule on their respective ranking criteria.

...as well as a repeat in the osu! specific ranking criteria:

  1. All actively clicked parts of objects must have at least one audible hitsound that does not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise. Using keysounds as hitnormals without other distinct additional hitsounds, for example, is not allowed.


Suggested solution


My proposal is to rewrite both rules mentioned so that active hitsounds are not enforced for every single clickable part of an object in a map and only the specifications of hitsounds' audio peaks and file format are left, while moving the osu! specific rule mentioned to general guidelines. This might be written as follows:

Ranking Criteria - Audio Rules


  1. All active hitsounds used in a map must both...
    1. ...have a clear impact, whose peak is delayed no more than 5 milliseconds. normal-hitfinish.wav from the default skin is exempt from this.
    2. ...use the uncompressed WAV (.wav) or Ogg Vorbis (.ogg) file format. MP3 should not be used here as it is inherently delayed.
    3. This ensures instant audible feedback when clicking objects, synchronising with the song in a way that enables players to determine how early or late they are clicking. [...]

osu! Ranking Criteria - General Guidelines


  1. All clicked parts of objects should have at least one audible hitsound that does not blend with the song. Players may not receive enough feedback otherwise. This includes, for example, using keysounds as hitnormals without other distinct additional hitsounds. However, cases where lack of audible active hitsound feedback has negligible impact on gameplay, such as overmapped rapid doubles (aka "doubletaps"; eg. 1/16 snapping) or head of a kickslider/buzzslider hitsounded on other parts, may be allowed.

(The latter only mentions potential cases in osu! standard since I am not in a position to speak for the other gamemodes)
smoczyy
129 posts
Joined April 2020
smoczyy
Moreover, regarding the aforementioned discussion: beatmapsets/2094154#osu/4390731 - most of the controversy aside, first 30 seconds of this map are mapped with hitsounds at 5% volume - which, frankly, i can't hear over the song. This doesn't make the map utterly unplayable either, but it's personally more frustrating than the predictable rhythming shown on the mentioned mapset.
Last edited by smoczyy , edited 2 times in total.
melleganol
629 posts
Joined March 2020
melleganol
while i really like ppl get science mode with modding, the ms argument doesn't hold up if it's not the first note in the map or after a break or w/e. Why? because it's not the same process, after the first note you just get the rhythm and the feedback is expected from those notes before. It’s hard to believe that it wouldn’t be noticeable when feedback suddenly disappears.

I strongly agree with rewording this rule, regardless of the outcome, though I’d argue for setting 20% as the minimum.
AnimeStyle
658 posts
Joined December 2012
AnimeStyle
May be just me, but the wording gives me "slippery slope" vibes.
What constitues them being negligable for gameplay purposes? I'd argue there is never a reason to having nothing on something clickable.
If the issue with the set in question is that the base volume is too low on some sliders, then why not increase the volume at the beginning of the objects?
Seems like a more sensible solution than opening the floodgates to ommiting audible HS on clickables.
Neto
Beatmap Nominator
1,324 posts
Joined October 2014
Neto
If you're tapping a rhythm, you should get feedback that you did so. That's how rhythm games are desgined. It's not about active or passive hitsounds, it's about active rhythms; circles, slider heads. Those NEED feedback. Volume is dependant on the song volume relative to the hitsound volume. In the vast majority of cases, 20% or more is okay. Anything below that doesn't work well unless it's a very quiet part of the song (breaks, solo pianos, etc), which was not the case of the map mentioned in the og post.
SupaV
Beatmap Nominator
512 posts
Joined November 2020
SupaV
i don't think that active hitsounds should be a guideline. it should, however, be reworded.

"audible" is inherently not quantifiable, audible on what volume? 90/10? 50/100? 10/100? (those reference music/effect volume settings). since the case above involves a buzzslider, maybe we can more specifically tune the ruling into something specifically targeting buzzsliders.

regarding the map which is used as a case study for this proposal: i don't think 10% is needed to "follow the pitch"- the simple fact is that the actual drum layer that's being followed is still loud, hyperfocusing on one layer isn't quite it, and i don't think that this is rocket science.

so, i'll just put it this way:
- if "audible" means a certain percentage, a certain decibel threshold, a certain something, please do quantify it much clearly so that the RC reflects this.
- if the case study above seems like a decent compromise, consider moving it into a guideline OR allowing this buzzslider thing.

with that said, i do believe that the case study above reflect that the RC is (mostly) judged on a per-case basis, whether it's good or bad, other RC cases like this include difficulty spread, diffnames, and etc.
App
Beatmap Nominator
324 posts
Joined December 2018
App
I feel like the wording is okay, in reality not much has changed and OP got his point across. Any cases where it feels like a "slippery slope" should be up to the NATs after proper discussion is had with the BNs involved, listening to what everyone else has to say should also be a factor.

I am the creator of the beatmap that was linked by OP, and I personally did not even think that this could've been turned into such a big issue.

I definitely got the idea from some old map that I played and I definitely liked it hard enough to put it in my own map, sure the argument could be made that we don't live in that era anymore but I just want to highlight that me and many other people share the same sentiment. There's nothing wrong with being against the current wording in rc if it's reasonable to be mad about it, it's basically making the concept that I used "unrankable" even though the way it's used there is (subjective) perfectly fine ---> Not a single soul has found it difficult to play or easy to miss on.

I don't agree with setting a minimum volume because this is going to be different case by case and setting a clear minimum volume is only going to encourage more people to theoretically get away with it on maps that don't strive for anything interesting. Imagine opening up just any map and seeing 20% to 30% volume changes on a song that isn't relatively quiet that are backed up by this rule. That would be a little bit stupid.

Not sure how to sum this up, guess I'm all for it. Would like to see people come up with more reasonable arguments than just object = loud volume because this is not how the game has always been, trying to dumb things down isn't healthy for creativity. Remember that.
Leomine
740 posts
Joined October 2018
Leomine
I did an interview to a closed bunch of people about hitsounding issues and one of these was "Aspirants don't know the hitsound udibility cause they don't know about song's intent", after reading this proposal i just reminded of this and i thought "What would happen if an audible hitsound will become a 'Personal' choice?". I'm here to analyze this proposal and give an answer as Hitsounder.

One such case was discussed recently on this mapset, which constitutes as a potential violation of RC rules with their current wording
As this representation, you're supposing the hearability hasn't sense for players, anyway as the discussion gone this is still a minimum circustance which it last 20ms or less and the song is still there with its full sound, the issue is right but the intent has a sense as well. the examples idk what are you trying to verify since the reaction time it's usually personal which it includes the visible time reaction (AR explanation in short) so although hit wasn't that udible for those 20ms the player still can identify it as a song's beat.

hit sound on std/ctb modes are important as osu!taiko hitsounds, they need to be a audible rule. I'm in disagree to make a guideline that would lead to the same osu!mania hitsounding concept. As discussion brought, the time reaction is so low that the player even notice it which i consider it a good idea even the "faith".

I think a good idea is to add something related to volume usage instead since lots of songs don't even care about it. let me do an example:

Ranking Criteria Audio Guideline


  1. Objects audibility should be on par with the audio. Feedback purpose give to the player a correct listening as Audio as hitsound, so avoiding hitsounds with extremely low volume or samples that blend with a song's samples. Specific game modes list exceptions to this rule on their respective ranking criteria.
This is not the best suggestion but if you would talked about "exceptions" instead of "Let's make a guideline of it" the answer was been more impactful imo since everything can be made with a right reason.
Last edited by Leomine , edited 1 time in total.
DEAD GIRL
353 posts
Joined June 2018
DEAD GIRL
i somewhat agree? though, the osu!rc rule 'all clickables must/should have at least one audible hitsound', even when reworded, still doesn't cover all the bases; hitsounding is as much of an artistic medium as mapping, and with fairly recent progression of testing ranked section limits, HSing shouldn't be as restrictive as it stands.

per the recent controversial DQ of the aforementioned App mapset beatmapsets/2383696/discussion/5153904/timeline#/5157101 , i stand on the side of keeping it as it was. 5%, 10%, 15% or whatever small percentage used for the sliderhead volume will still not make the clickable have 'enough feedback' to overpower the higher volumes on sliderends. HOWEVER, that is the whole point of this gimmick, the clickable doesn't have an audible hitsound while the rest of the slider does, making complete sense in the context of the song and being reasonsable in gameplay.

another example lies in beatmapsets/2094154#osu/4390731 , the 5% volumes are technically unrankable, despite fitting the song and the sliders technically have feedback per sliderticks (though i believe the circles themselves should have a higher volume, which will be touched on in my re-wording of the osu! specific rule).

the wording should be changed to fit within the context of a song, while still having a technicality that is purposely made to be loopholed

Audio RC Guideline


- Hitsounds should be audible. Extremely low volumes and samples similar to the song's samples may be used within reason; however, they mustn't negatively impact the gameplay experience. Specific game modes list exceptions to this guideline on their respective ranking criteria.

Specific osu! Guideline


- At least one part of all objects should have an audible hitsound that does not blend with the song. It is heavily incentivized for the aforementioned part to be a clickable/clicked part. However, cases where a lack of audible feedback doesn't have an impact on gameplay, such as one of the circles in "doubletaps" (two circles placed within 1/16 of each other), may be allowed. Slider ticks, slider ends, and slider reverses may be used as substitute for slider head feedback within context of the song and rhythm structure of a beatmap.
Last edited by DEAD GIRL , edited 1 time in total.
honne
160 posts
Joined February 2014
honne

Reply To smoczyy + an example

Your feelings on that mapset are valid, I genuinely do not like the hitsounds on that map as they make for a somewhat awkward experience as volumes don't match the general intensity of the song. I'm sure anyone playing could relate.

I do understand where you're coming from and personally wouldn't make this own decision on my own map or a map I would praise, but you can actually make out individual sounds in the beginning because of how quiet the song is. However, I cannot speak on those using weaker equipment.
To be supportive of volumes having a hard limit would mean that context is irrelevant; this should never be the case.

For reference, I have done something similar on Ego Death @ 04:31:973 (1) - using a soft-hitnormal which is somewhat audible at 85% volume. Take this example while using modern samples from player skins (or even lazer), you can hear something on your initial click and get a very deliberate auditory experience.

My honest thoughts on the main discussion


Whether you like it or not, audibility is literally whether u can hear it over the music or not..

Audibility in regards to how we're subtly dismissing it (on some points) can be equated to frequencies (sc*ence term for vibrations AKA: noise 😱), some people can hear and some cannot, which is not a reasonable compromise in my eyes.
The mode of quality we should strive for is to provide a somewhat consistent experience across a variety of different setups, whether you are using a good setup or a bad one.

Dabbe_01 wrote:
My proposal is to rewrite both rules mentioned so that active hitsounds are not enforced for every single clickable part of an object in a map and only the specifications of hitsounds' audio peaks and file format are left, while moving the osu! specific rule mentioned to general guidelines.
(I've bolded parts that stand out more to me here)

On its own, the rule still goes in on itself with ALBA referenced; the only reason low volume was used here is because of creative preferences and not because it is audible. Without a doubt, this is somewhat controversial simply because no one wants to address whether it can be heard or not. To settle on mapper intentions.. even if it violates the quality standards we're setting should not be the goal.

Active Hitsounds should aim not to blend with music but to accompany it while providing audible feedback. Currently, it looks as if removing this would be the end goal since players are just that good™️ now so it doesn't matter anymore which I believe leads to a lack of care for this aspect of hitsounding.


tldr we shouldn't be pushing for inaudible active hs, I generally do not like the idea that audibility is solely being viewed under a subjective guise on this discussion and needs to have considerations from all angles. I respect the creative discretion to express ideas but I fear the execution of these ideas are from a place of experimentation rather than practice.
smoczyy
129 posts
Joined April 2020
smoczyy

honne wrote:

To be supportive of volumes having a hard limit would mean that context is irrelevant; this should never be the case.
I didn't mean to bring that up to support the 'volume threshold' proposal. Opposite, I wanted to highlight how (at least for me) inaudible hitsounds made their way into ranked while in App's map something that I couldn't even call a minuscule problem is deemed as an unrankable. I generally am for what Dabbe is trying to push through.

Might have been a little unclear about this.
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