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Modding v2 feedback / brainstorming thread

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Topic Starter
MaridiuS
After a while of it existing in the community as an option, I think that the modders and mappers are ready to discuss it in detail. What I've thought is to compile Pros and Cons of the system, and suggestions for improvement. These are just my initial thoughts, I'd like people of any experience to get involved, and try to think of new things or discuss not so discussed topics. Even the smallest things are to be mentioned. The lists below are not final.

Pros
  1. Able to filter difficulties.
  2. a e s t h e t i c.
  3. Is useful for smooth top class map modding.
  4. Less repeated things from modders. (although is this even a pro, since mappers tend to change their mind after modders point out the same thing)
  5. Collab maps can a bit more easily be handled.
  6. You can note posts?
  7. Takes less immediate commitment from both the modders and mappers side.
Cons
  1. Polishing the mod is not as viable, there's no way to prepare a mod beforehand with osu! resources.
  2. In the current system modding is considered as a secondary involvement, people are much more known for being mappers or players, but rarely is a user known for being a good modder. The new system puts modders all mixed up, so others viewing the thread won't be able to comprehend the value of one modder, in fact, with all the posts mixed up so much, I doubt anybody will be looking over mods unless the timestamp says that something was already mentioned. This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride.
  3. There is no formatting.
  4. Seems like there is a lot of unused space than it needs to be. ~Noffy. Personally I think at some point it is handy, but removing a little bit white space would be more fitting as I won't be required to scroll a lot down for just one discussion on a post.
  5. GDers can't post their updates in the thread so you don't have a history of them if people wanted to ever look back for changes.
  6. Some mappers like to reply to mods first before applying it, so after answering a mod and mark it as resolved, keeping a track later would be a pain.
  7. New reward system is literally a con
  8. Hype system is also a con
  9. Character limit... Currently in case I need to write a huge paragraph, I will have to break it down into adding more into responses of the initial post, which is just a pain imo. So imo I think character limit could have a higher cap?
Issues that only seem to be curent
  1. Currently you can't view activity on mv2 on old site. On new site you can, but it's mega spammy.
  2. Currently, if a difficulty changes beatmap number due to being renamed, or deleted and added back between uploads, all points made on it disappear into an abyss.
  3. Is there no limit per kudosu on a mapset yet?
  4. You can't see the listing of currently nominated maps.
  5. Writing box is impractical, it's height is too small, covering about 2 and a half rows. Scrolling goes to like 1.5 rows and I get to skip text basically on longer posts. I think making it by default to be higher, or simply make it follow your preference of its height is the way to go, because the current chosen box is too small for any editing conventions.
Improvement suggestions
  1. Make it available to filter per modder and per timeline. I am pretty sure many people would prefer that, I cant imagine myself browsing mapthreads on modv2 in it's current state. Especially the "resolved" issues.
Undiscussed/Unsorted
  • New popping system is in place, everytime a BN posts an issue, the mapset automatically becomes popped.
Stuff deemed irrelevant by my own choice therefore removed
  1. Modders are limited with the timeline. No freedom into compiling issues related to one concept if more are mentioned. People often use stuff in the same mod post like; Rhythm errors: *Modder mentions few timestamps related to rhythm. Then something like Flow errors: *Modder entions few timestamps related to flow. Modders try to dynamically connect their thoughts about one specific issue at a time really often. Being limited to expressing concerns via timeline only will hinder that.
  2. Make the modder be able to post all at once, and separate timelines by doing shift enter. When doing shift+enter, the current segment will be framed, and a new blob will appear for all below that, separated with a smooth line or something. Those segments should include options of praise / issue / suggestions for the sake of timeline view and the purpose of modding v2. The idea is to make filter for timeline as well as filter per modder available, while also staying easy to polish.


I will try to edit the post often with stuff discussed in the thread.
Uta
Sure, a e s t h e t i c. But I prefer modding v1 tho.
not really see how ranking works on v2.

MaridiuS wrote:

Hype train?


chuu chuu
_handholding
There are other cons too such as

  1. not being able to subscribe
  2. GDers can't post their updates in the thread so you don't have a history of them if people wanted to ever look back for changes. (This is quite minor and for some even irrelevant)
  3. Because there is no thread mods are not recorded in post history. Many people use their post history to backtrack things posted in threads as it is easy to navigate and be informed if there is a response (via number of number of replies displayed).
Topic Starter
MaridiuS

Kisses wrote:

There are other cons too such as

  1. not being able to subscribe
  2. GDers can't post their updates in the thread so you don't have a history of them if people wanted to ever look back for changes. (This is quite minor and for some even irrelevant)
  3. Because there is no thread mods are not recorded in post history. Many people use their post history to backtrack things posted in threads as it is easy to navigate and be informed if there is a response (via number of number of replies displayed).
Those are real facts, so I added all of them in cons without discussion. Looking forward to more facts and opinions.
pkhg

MaridiuS wrote:

Cons
  1. Modders are limited with the timeline. No freedom into compiling issues related to one concept if more are mentioned. People often use stuff in the same mod post like; Rhythm errors: *Modder mentions few timestamps related to rhythm. Then something like Flow errors: *Modder entions few timestamps related to flow. Modders try to dynamically connect their thoughts about one specific issue at a time really often. Being limited to expressing concerns via timeline only will hinder that. u can still link do that iirc
  2. In the current system modding is considered as a secondary involvement, people are much more known for being mappers or players, but rarely is a user known for being a good modder. The new system puts modders all mixed up, so others viewing the thread won't be able to comprehend the value of one modder, in fact, with all the posts mixed up so much, I doubt anybody will be looking over mods unless the timestamp says that something was already mentioned. This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride. so whats the issue here? whats important its the mod itself not who posted it
  3. There is no formatting. irrelevant
that hype train thing looks dumb atm. idk whats the purpose of it lo
Topic Starter
MaridiuS

pkhg wrote:

MaridiuS wrote:

Cons
  1. Modders are limited with the timeline. No freedom into compiling issues related to one concept if more are mentioned. People often use stuff in the same mod post like; Rhythm errors: *Modder mentions few timestamps related to rhythm. Then something like Flow errors: *Modder entions few timestamps related to flow. Modders try to dynamically connect their thoughts about one specific issue at a time really often. Being limited to expressing concerns via timeline only will hinder that. u can still link do that iirc
  2. In the current system modding is considered as a secondary involvement, people are much more known for being mappers or players, but rarely is a user known for being a good modder. The new system puts modders all mixed up, so others viewing the thread won't be able to comprehend the value of one modder, in fact, with all the posts mixed up so much, I doubt anybody will be looking over mods unless the timestamp says that something was already mentioned. This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride. so whats the issue here? whats important its the mod itself not who posted it
  3. There is no formatting. irrelevant
that hype train thing looks dumb atm. idk whats the purpose of it lo
1. It will turn out a lot more cumbersome and unorganized.
2. The modders may want some recognition from the community not just the mapper in order to have motivation to mod. Generally people dislike modding and take no pride to it, with new changes nobody will take pride in it. Comparing it to mapping, most mappers wouldn't map if their maps when ranked won't show the name of the mapper.
3. Relevant because it can come in handy for some people that want to throw links with a name, accentuating certain buzzwords or memes ;d.
Nao Tomori
re: cons.

subscription has been added recently actually, with the watch feature.
polishing is fine if you do the entire thing in notepad first and post one by one, as it has been.

of course, the issue there is this whole business of constantly having to alt tab and write something on a website rather than having it on a notepad sheet right next to you. i'd love to see a thing where you can post a giant blob of timestamps, separated by lines or whatever, and it auto resolves onto the timeline. would make it a lot easier for those of us who don't want to constantly be alt tabbing or who mod offline frequently.
Topic Starter
MaridiuS

Naotoshi wrote:

of course, the issue there is this whole business of constantly having to alt tab and write something on a website rather than having it on a notepad sheet right next to you. i'd love to see a thing where you can post a giant blob of timestamps, separated by lines or whatever, and it auto resolves onto the timeline. would make it a lot easier for those of us who don't want to constantly be alt tabbing or who mod offline frequently.
Hey that might be an ideal way to separate the timelines. Each time you do a shift+enter a new smooth line will appear below. Those new segments should include options of praise / issue / suggestion.
Sieg
Pros
shitloads of kudosu, now you'll be able to gain one for every single blanket
pkhg
i personally dont care if my name is shown or not in maps/mods and for ppl who cares, thats not modv2's goal. also names are still shown so idk what are you complaining about

MaridiuS wrote:

although is this even a pro, since mappers tend to change their mind after modders point out the same thing)
i think u can "upvote" a suggestion or just reply to it with something like "i agree". its much more organized than doing it on thread xd
Topic Starter
MaridiuS

pkhg wrote:

i personally dont care if my name is shown or not in maps/mods and for ppl who cares, thats not modv2's goal. also names are still shown so idk what are you complaining about
Yeah shown, but I wonder who will bother searching for that specific modder's posts in the thread to see what specifically that modder wrote with the thread mega flooded with all kinds of stuff. For example I tend to sometimes read last few mods from the mapset I'm about to mod, and I sometimes take a liking to someones wording and would like to checkout more from him. That won't be happening in moddingv2 timeline system.
_handholding
Tbh I think MariduiS has a point about formatting and the specific modder thing (a combination of the 2). In the thread if a BN posts a mod you can see all the points together which is very convenient especially when several points are related to each other.

Also if a map receives a post qualify mod all members of the community can discuss systemic order. That can't really be done with mv2... well not in an intuitive way at least
Pachiru
In my opinion, hype train is just the same thing as the actual Loved system: Begging for favs/hype.

If it was at least 12 suggestions instead of 12 random comments, that would be more representative of what chiefs wants to improve, the quality of ranked beatmaps.

I don't pretend that mods always improve maps quality, but at least, it can give different opinions from different mappers about the mapset.


EDIT: Very nice idea you got here MaridiuS by the way. Also, why not adding a link of the posts in the list of each point discussed in the thread, so it might be easier to check for people that are interested about the points.
Evening
anyone know how to edit the description on the new site other than submitting/updating the whole map again
timemon

Evening wrote:

anyone know how to edit the description on the new site other than submitting/updating the whole map again


it still goes back to the thread even on v2

Edit: Might as well talk about the v2 lol

I hope the new rewarding system does not reward per suggestion/point. It will incentivize people to point out as much as possible which can be spammed like blankets or repeating the same thing over and over again. (like if the modder does not understand the mapper's concept and instead of asking, he points out the whole thing with multiple timelines)

Limiting the kudosu gain per mapset/difficulty is a cool way to make sure the modders have the best interest in mind. (modding to improve the beatmap, without worrying about kudosu gains)
Evening

timemon wrote:

Evening wrote:

anyone know how to edit the description on the new site other than submitting/updating the whole map again
this method works just fine, thanks!
Topic Starter
MaridiuS
Checked new pishifat video and... No pop button lol.

Also Pachiru, I don't think its necessary to connect it, since people interested in improving mv2 or finding out more should read the whole thread and the thread isn't even developed yet.
abraker

MaridiuS wrote:

This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride.
That is a good thing. Levels the playing field.

If there is such a thing as modder's pride, aka a thing making some modders feel they are above others, then there are deeper issues at hand that needs fixing. Ideally all should have an equal say. And if comments of the inexperienced bug you so much, then it is all of the experienced modders/mappers faults for not giving more opportunities to create experienced modders/mappers.
peppy

timemon wrote:

Limiting the kudosu gain per mapset/difficulty is a cool way to make sure the modders have the best interest in mind. (modding to improve the beatmap, without worrying about kudosu gains)


Definitely should be capped per map or per difficulty, I agree.
Topic Starter
MaridiuS

abraker wrote:

MaridiuS wrote:

This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride.
That is a good thing. Levels the playing field.

If there is such a thing as modder's pride, aka a thing making some modders feel they are above others, then there are deeper issues at hand that needs fixing. Ideally all should have an equal say. And if comments of the inexperienced bug you so much, then it is all of the experienced modders/mappers faults for not giving more opportunities to create experienced modders/mappers.
I'm sorry but we're talking about experienced modders, what do they do? Help people. People are competing in who can help people more, I think that's much more noble than mapping for fame or farming pp jumpmaps to be ranked better than someone. Everyone is given equal say, but some modders don't word stuff properly, mention useless things, and force their opinions without a reason why is that a valid opinion. With new system those modders won't be able to look up for other modders which do stuff better, having someone better than you is always good as it motivates you into becoming as good as well as having from someone to learn from. That's basically how I got into BNG, by looking up to people that mod greatly.

abraker wrote:

aka a thing making some modders feel they are above others
Pretty sure that modder pride is simple; enjoying analyzing the song in correlation to the map, analyzing the map in correlation with itself and trying to understand the ideas. You could include enjoying feedback that you receive or can receive as a modder too. It's far from looking down on others, as everyone was once a bad modder.

In the new system modding will be completely a secondary osu! option, mostly used only for m4ms and getting mods to get to the stage of Nomination. Not for actually trying to polish your knowledge or helping the mapper, or at least much rarely, as there are some issues where I mentioned limited mod design.
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