For a long while now, I've been worried about how hard it is to get a good ranked map nowadays. It totally depends on the ammount of mods you get + having to poke a MAT to mod your maps + waiting / poking a BAT to mod your bubble. We now have trouble with the ammount of bubbles, the quality of them itself, and whatnot...

So I thought about some hours, and discussed a bit with StarrodKirby86, of what could we do to move the community forward. I came up with an idea and we discussed it a lot, so after some hours, I got these ideas:

Priority System:


Popularity System:


Other uses of the Popularity System


If these things were implemented, I'm compromising myself to make a storyboarded map teaching the basics of mapping, such as timing, placing notes, all the tools and all the basics things. This map would be stickied to the guidelines, and for those who doesn't read guidelines at all, maybe stick it somewhere in the BSS. Like "Click here to read this tutorial on the basics of mapping".
Of course I'd be glad to take some help from people who are willing to help me on it.

The pros of this system:

- It will increase the quality of maps.
- It will make MATs job easier, which would also make BATs job easier.
- The number of things getting bubbled would go down a lot, working as a control for the number of bubbles.

The cons of this system:

- It's hard for veteran mappers to get mods that would actually improve their maps, so getting the necessary priority would be a bit troublesome, but hopefully the Popularity System helps balance the balance of it.
- It doesn't solve the problem of the numbers of mappers, which is fairly superior to the ammount of modders. Hopefully Popularity System helps here too.


Have any ideas? Got any questions?
Please give me your feedback with some constructive criticism, I'm really willing to read everything and answer the questions, update with new ideas if any and whatnot.

Hopefully if we all work together, we can make a move towards a better community!


People that are willing to help me on this:

The first part of this seems like it will fix nothing, and works roughly the same as the current system (with a hard cut-off for "rankability"). Let me jump in here and say that I already have an idea of how things can be improved and have already outlined how it would work in the past, so I would probably not worry yourselves with thinking up a new system until this happens (as it won't be implemented before I try mine).

Tbh, more disadvantages than advantage from my views. Haven't you know how the new mapper will ever survive from this system as they not even popular as the veteran. Not to mention the least known people

Equivalent wrote:

Haven't you know how the new mapper will ever survive from this system as they not even popular as the veteran. Not to mention the least known people

No, it will be quite the contrary. New mappers are mostly certain to gain posts that will help the map, thus giving a kudosu to the modder. When he does it, the map will automatically gain +1 priority.

@peppy

I'm looking forward to your solution then, but I'd still like to discuss this idea around, if possible.

Definitely support this. This will significantly aid mappers who hardly get any attention to their WIPs and bring them closer to getting their maps ranked or approved to BSS.

Also I did a very late refresh to this thread so it may sound silly that I'm posting this now with news from peppy that another idea of improving the current priority system is out there too. Still though, I like this idea, so I support nonetheless.

Another thing; perhaps add in a poll to this thread since I can't fling any votes to requests

Fuuko wrote:

Equivalent wrote:

Haven't you know how the new mapper will ever survive from this system as they not even popular as the veteran. Not to mention the least known people

No, it will be quite the contrary. New mappers are mostly certain to gain posts that will help the map, thus giving a kudosu to the modder. When he does it, the map will automatically gain +1 priority.

I don't know. It seems rather hard for new matters to gain mods. In fact I have to stake out mod queue to be sure I get a mod. I don't get random mods as veteran mappers do.

I think the biggest problem is general lacking of modding (including MAT's and BAT's), but I don't think this will solve that...

The problem i see with this it's if a new mapper it's pretty good on his first map, and has a problem getting actual mods since his map is so good no one has anything to add to it. Aditionally it would also make modders gain more kudosu from a single map for modding it more than once in a short ammount of time.

ya and i think its good idea and it will be better and easier for all MAT and BAT to check the new W.I.P maps or the maps that is known and this system will solve everything if there is top 20 or 10 Pending and W.I.P maps and i support this idea and i liked it.

Fuuko wrote:

Equivalent wrote:

Haven't you know how the new mapper will ever survive from this system as they not even popular as the veteran. Not to mention the least known people

No, it will be quite the contrary. New mappers are mostly certain to gain posts that will help the map, thus giving a kudosu to the modder. When he does it, the map will automatically gain +1 priority.

For such a big community, the least known people will stay behind unless he/she is daring to get his/her map attention. Have you seen new mapper get his/her map starred in just like 1 hour after uploaded (beside friend's star)? Mostly, it take like 6 months to reach 80+ SP and mostly you'll see his/her pinky star as an effort to get attention. While for those who can be considered veteran doesn't even need the pink star of her/himself to get acknowledge and fairly I can say, those who veteran know how and when to contact MAT/BAT already. Meanwhile for the new mapper who bluntly ask for mod not knowing their map good or not for a MAT check will mostly just got rejected by various issues.

From my experience, I asked few top players/experienced mappers to test/comment on my map. And like 1/2 of them would just reject without seeing the map look like. because why? "Who the fuck are you?, No I dont do mod/testplay for you, your map will be just plain stupid"

Random mod for a new mapper? It like dream, like 0.1% to get modded by random, seriously. And even if the new mapper got mod, like 90% of the time s/he wont defend not realizing the mod is good or not? Maybe put yourself in our shoes as the new mappers how hard to get a good mod?

Ok, enough my rant on that.

Its job is to decide what maps are ready to be ranked.

- Priority is given like this: When someone gets a kudosu for the post on the thread of the map, the map automatically gets +1 priority.
- To avoid random kudosu abuse, a report button would be implemented.Will it be a good mod or a bad mod? Especially new mapper not very experience enough in interpreting a good one or not, where when it come to mod, they will just give kudos not knowing anything.
- When a map hits 20 priority, a button on BSS ( or even on forum ) called "This map is ready to be ranked" would be available to click. Are you seriously saying 20 priority would be enough for a new mapper? Or that just a example there?Clicking on it makes your maps visible to MATs on somewhere around the forum, like the bubbles place. This would make it easier for MATs to pick up what they should mod.
- The kudosu star would remain the sameNewb modder will mod newb mappers so it feel safe for him/her to get a well earn kudos as some veteran mappers tend to kudos post which is really help them than just seeing the effort given by the modders
- For each two ranked / approved maps, the priority needed for the button to appear would go down by 1.
- The maximum that the priority would go down to is 8, which means 24 approved / ranked maps.it will be just the same, the veteran mappers will just need some 8 priority, which is quite easy for them to get than new mappers are
- Conversion of the current system to this new system would be as follow: A search for posts that were kudosu'd. Each one of those increases the priority of the new system by one.Another work for Peppy, go go Peppy


- Each month every player is given 5 Popularity Stars ( here referred as PS ).
- The player can then support maps with PSs. They throw a PS at a map they like, independent if it's ranked or not.
- To avoid some abuses, people can't throw a PS at their own maps. Plus, they can't throw more than one PS at a map.
- For unranked maps, each 5 PSs, 1 Priority would be given to the map.
- Conversion of the current system to this new system would be as follow: Simply convert the priority in the current system and convert it to Popularity in this new system.

Have you seen the front page of this site? Most of the time is Bad Apple top 5 played, it is because the song that make the map popular, not the basically the map itself, (Sorry if you get butthurt Ouran >.< I hope you got what I'm trying to say here). For some hardcore players, they will vote for the map, but who love the song more, they will just vote for the song. And, good song doesn't mean a good map is mapped

Equivalent said what I think is too. :L

Raging Bull wrote:

Equivalent said what I think is too. :L

It because, we on the same side. The newb mappers community

@lepido

You're right. I'm currently trying to think about something that incentives people to mod. Apparently, helping people to make better maps isn't that much of an incentive to them, neither the kudosu star is.

@Sakura

I doubt a new mapper, even if it's experienced with osu! system and all, will make a map so good that no one has anything to contribute with.

@Equivalent

I know how the community is harsh on new mappers. But there always kind people who only mods new mapper's stuff, so... Okay, I'll spend some time thinking what could we do so that new mappers do get their attention, too.

Equivalent wrote:

Will it be a good mod or a bad mod? Especially new mapper not very experience enough in interpreting a good one or not, where when it come to mod, they will just give kudos not knowing anything.

New mappers can still know if a mod is good or not. There's a place that says that you should kudosu the post if it was helpful, so people just need to be aware of that. At my first map, I could clearly say if my map got better after a mod, so I don't see why other people can't. To avoid general trouble, people should read this and this.

Equivalent wrote:

Are you seriously saying 20 priority would be enough for a new mapper? Or that just a example there?

Well, it's kinda a random number. I'm willing to change this to another number if anyone can think of a better. Also, having enough priority doesn't mean one SHOULD get it ranked. One should really aim for the best map possible, not for numbers of ranked maps.

Equivalent wrote:

Newb modder will mod newb mappers so it feel safe for him/her to get a well earn kudos as some veteran mappers tend to kudos post which is really help them than just seeing the effort given by the modders

That. Modding is all about being used to it. The more you mod, the more you can help people.

Equivalent wrote:

it will be just the same, the veteran mappers will just need some 8 priority, which is quite easy for them to get than new mappers are

Of course. Veteran mappers should by that time be able to make maps that are closer to get ranked. That doesn't actually mean he will only make good maps, but you get where I'm getting at.

Equivalent wrote:

Another work for Peppy, go go Peppy

Coding-wise, it isn't too troublesome to do this. Really.

Equivalent wrote:

Have you seen the front page of this site? Most of the time is Bad Apple top 5 played, it is because the song that make the map popular, not the basically the map itself, For some hardcore players, they will vote for the map, but who love the song more, they will just vote for the song. And, good song doesn't mean a good map is mapped

I see your point. I don't think that will be too much of a problem, though. I mean, people can only vote once, so the least they could do is "Do I like this map enough to spend one of my stars? Is it worth of it?". We can even write in big letters "GODAMNIT, USE STARS FOR MAPS YOU LIKE, NOT FOR THE SONGS, FOR THE HELL SAKE OF IT".

To get your map modded:
Post in queues/#modreqs - you aren't going to get mods if you don't ask people.
Mod other maps - by modding other maps, you'll find new ideas yourself, become a better mapper, become a better modder, and attract the attention of the community increasing your chance for a random mod. You also get kudos.
Play for months - You aren't going to be a good mapper if you can't play at least hard difficulties.

There is work involved to get your map ranked/approved. It's not just sitting there waiting for mods.

I will just reply with some of my thoughts here, for people who don't care you don't need to read.
I am not really that well known (not that I care about that much ;x;) and I am quite a new mapper you could say. My first ranked map got ranked like 4 months ago (after being pending for only 2, which is much shorter than average new maps I guess lol). Not that I'm bragging here, although I can see why some people could take it as such. ;x;

Fuuko wrote:

You're right. I'm currently trying to think about something that incentives people to mod. Apparently, helping people to make better maps isn't that much of an incentive to them, neither the kudosu star is.

You don't really need to think much, ziin pretty much summed it up. All I was doing was checking modding queues several times a day and stalking #modreqs. Back then I didn't even hang out in #modhelp at all. You can always advertise a mod4mod (this actually works quite well) in #modreqs and helps greatly. If you don't want to mod other people's maps, then you don't really have the right to demand mods on yours imo. Ofcourse, most of the modding queues don't even work like that, so even if you don't mod you can get your map modded.

Fuuko wrote:

I doubt a new mapper, even if it's experienced with osu! system and all, will make a map so good that no one has anything to contribute with.

Not even more experienced mappers make perfect stuff. Usually they ask for playtesting before they ask for mods and some of the stuff gets solved there already. Even if you are a new mapper you can still ask around for people to playtest your map. Asking random people in PM won't get you far though, unless they know you. You can always be friendly and ask in chats.
You can't expect of people to swarm into your map thread and give stars, mods, etc, without you asking for it. It takes time and effort.

Fuuko wrote:

Equivalent wrote:

it will be just the same, the veteran mappers will just need some 8 priority, which is quite easy for them to get than new mappers are

Of course. Veteran mappers should by that time be able to make maps that are closer to get ranked. That doesn't actually mean he will only make good maps, but you get where I'm getting at.

The only difference here is that veteran mappers make less mistakes. Even veteran mappers don't really rank stuff fast unless they are lucky catching a MAT to mod their map when it's ready for such a mod. Most new mappers make a mistake of asking for MAT mods and expecting bubbles (I did that myself actually) and they get demoralized and disappointed when they don't get one. This alone could discourage you to ask for more mods and then you only start whining and start feeling unhappy. You should start asking for MATs when regular modders cannot find any mistakes, or they can just find really minor stuff.

In general, every mod usually yields a star more or less, so if a map needs less mods, it doesn't get so much SP.

Fuuko wrote:

Equivalent wrote:

Another work for Peppy, go go Peppy

Coding-wise, it isn't too troublesome to do this. Really.

Did you read peppy's post? He has something in mind and he said that he will try his version FIRST. I bet he has other stuff to do as well.

ziin wrote:

There is work involved to get your map ranked/approved. It's not just sitting there waiting for mods.

The truth. ;x;

ziin wrote:

To get your map modded:
Post in queues/#modreqs - you aren't going to get mods if you don't ask people.
-The lack of modders- How many modders against mapper? How many willing to mod than mapping?
-The requirement for getting mod itself (e.g You must have at least +50 kudos, you must have 12SP without pink star, No Japan song, no Touhou and etc) - This restricted the map itself getting modded
- The long wait for your turn - Don't expect the modders to get your map straight away, even the modders itself will faded spirit in no return for himself sometime.
The chances to get mod in #modreqs - It like 1% to get modded in there, still there is 1% to get your map modded
Mod other maps - by modding other maps, you'll find new ideas yourself, become a better mapper, become a better modder, and attract the attention of the community increasing your chance for a random mod. You also get kudos.Some people can do mod fine, mostly just map and not mod, some doesn't care even if you modded their map. Even worst is mocking on your stupid/silly newb mod on their map
Play for months - You aren't going to be a good mapper if you can't play at least hard difficulties. Do you believe that some mappers can't even pass there own difficulty?

There is work involved to get your map ranked/approved. It's not just sitting there waiting for mods.When you push yourself too hard just to get your map attention and not having one, you'll just get frustration

I know this is from Ekaru's thread:
But somehow I feel that this so old already

Equiv: Are you just trying to be negative on every aspect here? So far it doesn't look like you're here to really try to help anything. Have any suggestions to make this better instead of just trying to tear someone's idea apart?

We are quite aware of the current situation, which you could have gleaned from the gist of the posts that you've been busily quoting. At least this idea is trying to take a step in a new and possibly better direction (even with ppy's own draft waiting for fruition also simmering). Try contributing instead of just posting complaints about the current system.

Really it's not that hard, many peole think im lucky because my first map got ranked in 1 week, (same with the 2nd, except a little bit longer due to SB)
All i did was:
Day 1 - Posted in about 3-4 queues that i met the criteria for, went and asked around in #mod for mods (good old days), and modded random unmodded maps by going into pending/WIP, and checking zero-reply threads, after about half a day posted in 3-4 additional queues.
Day 2, Repeat
Day 3, Repeat (by this point i think i already had a queue of my own XD)
Day 4, by now i already had posted in about 20 queues without spamming and reading queue rules and i started getting some influx of mods on my map.
Remember to always reply ASAP to modders, and make changes (if needed and you agree) then update so the next modder has the latest version of your map and doesnt end up repeating stuff other modders already said.

Then you should start looking for a MAT after you have gotten enough mods and you think your map is ready, dont be scared, the MAT is there to help you get your map polished and ready for ranking, not to give a bubble, they will pretty often give many suggestions and find issues in your map, that after fixed your map quality will improve by a lot, and once it's ready they will mark it with a bubble for the BAT.

It really isnt very complicated at all really, all you gotta do is work, be patient, and be dedicated, dont get discouraged if you dont get a bubble, if you're a first mapper chances are you wont get a bubble as soon as u get a MAT.

Garven wrote:

Equiv: Are you just trying to be negative on every aspect here? So far it doesn't look like you're here to really try to help anything. Have any suggestions to make this better instead of just trying to tear someone's idea apart?

We are quite aware of the current situation, which you could have gleaned from the gist of the posts that you've been busily quoting. At least this idea is trying to take a step in a new and possibly better direction (even with ppy's own draft waiting for fruition also simmering). Try contributing instead of just posting complaints about the current system.

Sorry, I'm thinking of what i can contributed in the mean time too for this, but some part of it I can't agree much. I gather up some of my thought regarding what I can add in. But not for now, I still busy writing my own stuff too. I dont think writing 2 different ideas with half asleep brain at the same time will be good anyway ~.~