So now that we have the Loved section, I'm sure there are songs that people would like to use negative or 0x SV in. For example:
(skip to 43 seconds if you want to see the cool part).

Even if we don't make this rankable, I think we should allow for this in mapping because for many more options, and we already have a ranked mania map with SV changes that's actually really cool: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/418097

Adding to this, if the slider velocity was modifiable in standard mid-slider, it would work much better than having to do a burai which looks rough. Having the notes go backwards in taiko and mania wouldn't be bad, because other rhythm games do it for the challenge maps.

Perhaps we should wait for osu!next, but either way I am making this request, because the devs may find it easier to do before the release osu!next if they do this?

Negative BPM? What on earth should that mean?

In order to understand what the OP is trying to say, we need to understand the relationship between SV and BPM in terms of scroll speed. BPM is the default scroll speed, which most people know as the tempo. A 150BPM song will have a slower default scroll rate compared to a 200BPM song, and if there are BPM changes inside the song, these changes would take effect immediately. SV is the multiplier of the BPM in terms of scroll rate. If you were to have a SV of 2.0 on a BPM of 100, the scroll speed would be equal to 200BPM. Scroll speed takes place in Taiko and Mania exclusively, but in standard and CTB in some regard, all of this applies to sliders. A 200BPM song has noticeably faster sliders than one of 160BPM does, and this is the reason why. Now that we've got that out of the way, let's try and see how this would apply to the modes. For the record, I'll only be talking about SV here, though BPM would do the same thing in the long run.

In terms of standard and CTB, I have no clue personally. Perhaps the notes would come reversed (i.e. CTB the notes would come from below, and standard the approach circle would move away from the note), though honestly that might be a little hard to believe. In terms of Taiko and Mania though, it means that the screen scrolls backwards, and in mania especially, this means all the notes on screen. In Taiko, if an SV change occurs, all the notes past the SV change are affected, but in Mania, all the notes on screen are affected by the SV change as soon as the SV change occurs. For example, in maps where the notes pause before advancing, the SV is set to 0 for a short time, and then resumed to the normal pace again. When the map hits the SV change, it tells the map to essentially stop all scrolling of the notes (e.g. of SV changes in Mania: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/824916). In Taiko however, if you were to do the same thing, any notes that were inside the SV change would be stuck at the Taiko hit marker until their time came. Firce777's gimmick Taiko map is a perfect example of what happens when SV=0: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/219733. So if a negative SV was applied to Mania, all notes would proceed to scroll backwards during this time when the SV timing point is reached, where as if a negative SV was applied to Taiko, the notes that are between the negative SV and the positive SV are affected. Essentially, notes would be coming from the left, but the timing to hit them would be no different.

Edit: also as a side note, the Taiko video posted above is closer to how mania would probably react to negative and 0 BPM/SV.

tl;dr, don't know how it works in standard or CTB, but in Taiko and Mania, notes scroll backwards.

Bara- wrote:

Negative BPM? What on earth should that mean?

FlamingRok's explanation is quite good for Taiko and Mania, for CTB and Standard it's a little harder to know what exactly to do, since for those modes the AR is set to a constant value. I'm not sure how it would work for CTB, but for standard I was thinking either a "ghost" slider/circle that is basically a replay of it in reverse, with approach circle becoming bigger, or a slider where you have to click the tail instead of the head. Negative bpm for standard could be implemented in several ways, but it really works in taiko and mania because of the adjustable scroll speeds. If CTB was similar in how the fruit dropped, it would be possible to do in this too, but it is dependant on AR.

hell yeah I always wanted negative BPM (or atleast negative SVs) to make maps even more crazy than singularity
would support this, but already spent all my stars...

For standard, it would be cool if the approach circle could just freeze to match a suitable part of the song, with bpm=0. For negative bpm, you could have the map just rewind and perhaps you don't have to click or something, so you don't lose combo. Or, maybe the animation for a hit playing in rewind would act like a really high AR approach circle, and people would be able to click in time after all. idk... I'll vote this up though

Oh hey you're that guy who spectated me earlier. Anyways I totally think osu! needs this, at least for taiko and mania. Though I would love to see it applied to standard somehow too, gimmicks are always nice.

There's going to be the inevitable question of "why not just edit the notepad file?" The reason is simple: that doesn't work, and when trying to play the map, if the negative BPM is the only timing point, the map won't load at all (or rather, it will infinitely try and load the map). Upon loading this up in the editor, the reason becomes apparent, where if you try and test it, osu! is recognizing the map as not having any timing points, despite very clearly having a timing point. If you try and input a negative SV (well in notepad, SV changes are denoted as negative values anyways, so trying to turn it positive by either removing the negative or adding a second negative), the game recognizes this as a positive SV still.

This means a negative BPM in a song with varying BPM is our only hope of anything. Unfortunately, nothing really happens here, although interestingly enough, doing this on a ranked map makes osu! still consider it ranked. Still, trying to play it yields the same results as when you tried to load the map with a negative BPM: it will infinitely try and load the map. What's worse about these situations is that you cannot hit your exit song button, as it no longer works. You're forced to ctrl+alt+del or alt+F4 or however you forcefully close the game (there are varying methods to this too). However, this will also happen when you try and test the map in the editor, as you do have a valid timing point, and that's all osu! checks for when it comes to opening a map in the test mode.

So yeah, any negative BPM does not work. However, a BPM of "0" does work. Why do I put "0" in quotations? Simply put, it's actually impossible to get a BPM of 0 in osu! The BPM found when looking at a song from the song select doesn't support digits, so anything below 0.5 will be displayed as 0, but the editor does. Firce777 in their map had made the seemingly 0BPM sections actually 0.01BPM, or more accurately, 0.6BPH (0.6 beat per hour). However, you can actually go lower than this. In the notepad file, timing points (not SV changes) are denoted for the sake of simplicity, as the opposite of what you see in the editor. This means in the notepad file, the bigger the number, the slower the BPM is, and the smaller the number, the faster the BPM is. So knowing this, what happens if you put the lowest positive number, a zero, into the notepad? Well, unfortunately, it's the same result as the negative BPM, except noticeably choppier, possibly because osu! is trying to comprehend what essentially is +infinity BPM.

So if we can't input 0, we can approach 0, right? The answer is yes, though with some...interesting effects. The drum mascot will stay frozen in animation due to how fast the BPM is (at 0.1, the BPM is 600000), and the line markers... https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/6375145. You'd normally see multiple line markers when the song is scrolling exceedingly slow, but because the song is scrolling so fast, you physically cannot see how fast they move, thus resulting in this. The game might not see it either. Also in the editor, if your tick-mark rate is high, the editor will chug due to how many tick-marks are on the screen at that moment. Of course, if you had an ultra-high SV, the same effect would be achieved, but without the chugging. If the SV is set to 0...it gets treated as 1. If the SV approaches 0...also rather anti-climactic, where it gets treated as 8, even if it displays itself as larger (over 1mil as an example), possibly again a limitation of the editor.

Regarding all of this, how did MinG get his map to have -infinityBPM? After all, entering a super high number by itself doesn't do anything except give you +infinityBPM, and we've already discussed that -BPM doesn't work. The only thing I can think of is that once again, this is a fault of osu!, where it doesn't know what to think of -infinity, and just runs the game anyways. This is just pure speculation though, I have no idea what's going on with -infinity.

tl;dr again, negative or 0BPM with the exception of -infinity will give an infinite loop of loading, negative SV gets treated as positive, and 0SV gets treated as 1SV. BPM and SV are allowed values approaching 0, and while BPM can approach and even reach infinity, SV gets locked at 8 no matter how high the value is.

In osu! is definitely impossible and so is BPM.
In Catch The Beat, may work since it is technically a scroll bar.
But in Taiko and osu!mania, definitely a yes.

Though I feel that I saw a duplicate of this before.

Rilene wrote:

In osu! is definitely impossible and so is BPM.
In Catch The Beat, may work since it is technically a scroll bar.
But in Taiko and osu!mania, definitely a yes.

Though I feel that I saw a duplicate of this before.

I checked and it seemed like the last request was 2 years ago. As for osu!std, I think another way it could be possible is with modifiable AR perhaps, there are creative ways to implement it

Also FlamingRok, thanks for the posts, they're very good

This seems like a cool concept. Not sure what you mean about BPM since the BPM doesn't change the rate at which notes appear/disappear but none the less I think it's a nice concept.

Might be hard to do for standard but I see this working well with other modes!

-

Really cool in the video! I'd support this in taiko/mania. It seems negative SV allows many creative ways for taiko/mania mappers to do.
For ctb/std I don't really catch how it works though.

Rilene wrote:

Though I feel that I saw a duplicate of this before.

p/3568745 ?

Bara- wrote:

Rilene wrote:

Though I feel that I saw a duplicate of this before.

p/3568745 ?

Yeah that is 2 years ago and outdated, and the discussion on this one is much better

Uhh no
2 years is still valid, it also has 3x more posts for a better discussion

If only we were able to use complex BPMs and SVs, too! Man, can't think of all these batshit crazy series and singularities I'd have pulled out of my sleeve.

Kyria wrote:

Have the approach circle slow to a stop, have it possible to reverse it?

Sadly, Approach Rate and Slider Velocity are a different stuff when it comes to osu! mode.

Bara- wrote:

Uhh no
2 years is still valid, it also has 3x more posts for a better discussion

This ^
Read the forum guidelines please before creating threads, thanks.

I guess this question is outdated, and the creator of this topic knows the way to goet negative BPM, just looks like i can get to 6 mil not using glitches.