00:56 Okoratu: yo
00:56 Okoratu: whenever you got time to talk about that map of yours ~
00:57 dorothy3242: O:
00:57 Okoratu: kaguya rejected it
00:58 Okoratu: but i like the song
00:58 Okoratu: so i will say some general things about why he most likely rejected it
00:58 dorothy3242: Okay O:
01:01 dorothy3242: thank you very much;
01:01 Okoratu: np song again
01:01 Okoratu: aa
01:01 *dorothy3242 is editing [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/549708 YuugouP - YELLOW TRICK [Hard]]
01:02 Okoratu: first of all there are some uhh
01:02 Okoratu: design issues
01:03 dorothy3242: for example uhh--;;?
01:04 Okoratu: like uhm
01:04 Okoratu: 00:01:584 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
01:04 Okoratu: looks like you just made round sliders for that rhythm
01:04 Okoratu: and that's fine and stuff
01:04 Okoratu: but then the same thing repeats and you only do 00:04:669 (1,2,3,4) -
01:05 Okoratu: you could easily vary that rhythm as well as that design to make it more interesting
01:05 Okoratu: right now this whole part is just slider slider slider
01:05 *dorothy3242 takes out notebook
01:06 Okoratu: 00:06:726 (4) - did you forget a sliderwhistle btw
01:06 Okoratu: ah look 00:07:412 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - there we got some variation
01:06 dorothy3242: ah yep I forgot that slider whistle;
01:06 Okoratu: but isn't that whole part just a buildup to the whole thing actually starting
01:07 dorothy3242: a build up yes it's supposed to be
01:07 Okoratu: so
01:07 Okoratu: let's see what you have here
01:07 Okoratu: 00:01:584 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
01:07 Okoratu: sliders only
01:07 Okoratu: which can be nice for a first step of a build up
01:07 Okoratu: 00:04:669 (1,2,3,4) - 4 slower sliders for a reason i don't understand
01:08 Okoratu: 00:07:755 (2,3,4,5,6) - suddenly lots of circles
01:08 Okoratu: this could be considered not that much a buildup
01:08 Okoratu: but more like
01:08 Okoratu: random patterns
01:08 Okoratu: if you want it to build up you should start slow
01:08 Okoratu: and then add increasingly more circles
01:08 Okoratu: because that's what a buildup is
01:09 Okoratu: from easy~hard
01:09 dorothy3242: so I should try to ease in from sliders to circles better?
01:09 dorothy3242: and both?
01:09 Okoratu: if you want to portray a buildup
01:10 Okoratu: you should go from less objects or easier patterns
01:10 Okoratu: to more objects and harder patterns
01:10 Okoratu: because that's how buildups work
01:10 Okoratu: they get increasingly intensive, right?
01:10 dorothy3242: that's how they are supposed to work, right.
01:11 Okoratu: secondly after this spinner 00:11:184 (1) - you leave out a lot of things
01:11 Okoratu: i wondered why as i was playing it
01:11 Okoratu: like you could have placed objects at like starting in 00:12:898 -
01:11 dorothy3242: I wasn't sure how long to leave after a spinner before having objects in a hard;;
01:11 Okoratu: it's like 1 white tick
01:12 dorothy3242: oh ok o:
01:13 dorothy3242: I'll be sure to add something in there then now that I know that
01:13 Okoratu: 00:15:298 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - i don't understand the hitsounds
01:13 Okoratu: for instance
01:13 Okoratu: there are things that would call for some kind of finish on 2 and 4
01:14 Okoratu: and claps on 1 and 3
01:14 Okoratu: but you do something i don't really understand
01:15 Okoratu: 00:14:612 (1) - 00:17:355 (1) - i would consider removing these combos because 00:19:412 (1,2,3,4,5) - maps the same sounds in one combo and honestly 3 object combos are short
01:16 dorothy3242: I had meant for it to go none-clap-finish in attempts to hitsound competently;
01:16 Okoratu: i do understand your reasoning behind them
01:16 Okoratu: but if you break the system in only some places that's kinda bad for how consistent your map is
01:16 Okoratu: in the end
01:17 Okoratu: 00:22:155 (1) - i don't really understand what that's supposed to be rhythmically
01:17 dorothy3242: oh I think I see
01:17 Okoratu: like there's no obvious held down sound
01:18 dorothy3242: I'm not really good at describing sounds but at that part there is a downward uhm
01:18 Okoratu: but more something like [http://puu.sh/dBGMY/c9027ad610.jpg this rhythm]
01:18 dorothy3242: a downward string of notes in pitch?
01:18 Okoratu: how obvious is it
01:18 Okoratu: that downward string of notes pitch and how complex is it
01:18 Okoratu: like would you notice that when first listening
01:19 Okoratu: because what i just drew is the most obvious rhythm i could find for that thing
01:19 dorothy3242: I had perceived it to be the main sound at that part
01:20 Okoratu: so
01:20 Okoratu: does mine make no sense to you
01:20 Okoratu: or does it make sense
01:20 Okoratu: then evaluate which makes more sense
01:20 Okoratu: yours or the thing someone suggests
01:21 Okoratu: if mine doesn't make sense, that's fine
01:22 Okoratu: is what i'm saying
01:22 dorothy3242: I'm not really sure because I think I may be too used to hearing the downward notes in pitch
01:22 Okoratu: i just want to make sure the ones i give suggestions are sure about what they mapped and that it's the best they could make it
01:22 dorothy3242: and then I get distracted by it
01:22 Okoratu: 00:25:241 - do you ignore the finish sound because vocals ?
01:23 Okoratu: because you mapped it on a sliderend just after in 00:27:469 (4,5) -
01:24 dorothy3242: aha I thought I was following just the vocals both times but I hear(see?) what you mean
01:24 Okoratu: 00:25:755 (7) - 00:31:241 (9,10) - i understand these hitsounds, but why do you do it differently in 00:28:155 (6,7) -
01:25 dorothy3242: because I need to figure out a better way to keep track of my own hitsound patterns >_<
01:25 Okoratu: 00:24:726 (4) - also that slider has some more potential as in it could look [http://puu.sh/dBHi9/78f9f4c59f.jpg smoother]
01:26 Okoratu: 00:26:269 (1) - same goes for this one, rough edges that look random might look bad for your design
01:26 Okoratu: as in unpolished
01:26 dorothy3242: oh I see those inner corners look a bit unrounded-like ah o:
01:27 Okoratu: so you map vocals right
01:27 dorothy3242: so I should try and go through again too look for slightly edgy sliders again;
01:28 Okoratu: (i would have never thought i'd say that but) why is 00:30:384 (6) - on the white tick
01:28 Okoratu: when the held down vocal starts in
01:28 Okoratu: 00:30:212 (5) -
01:28 dorothy3242: you never thought you'd say that? xD
01:28 Okoratu: yes
01:28 Okoratu: because i tend to map instruments
01:28 Okoratu: over vocals
01:29 Okoratu: that's why i would have never gotten the idea to end up suggestion
01:29 Okoratu: suggesting
01:29 Okoratu: that.
01:29 Okoratu: but you hear what i mean
01:29 Okoratu: right
01:29 Okoratu: the thing you can click is a circle
01:29 Okoratu: the vocal is held down for 1/2 t hough
01:30 dorothy3242: I do hear what you mean that was a mistake of mine it was meant to follow the vocal and I thought it did but it doesn't
01:30 Okoratu: this happens frequently throughout this i think
01:30 Okoratu: or let's say
01:30 Okoratu: there are objects
01:30 Okoratu: but they don't do what you intended them to do
01:30 Okoratu: sometimes
01:30 dorothy3242: sometimes
01:31 Okoratu: they do what you want them to most times
01:31 dorothy3242: and when listened to they can sound alright but they're a little mixed up?
01:31 Okoratu: 00:32:441 (3) - e.g. this one
01:31 Okoratu: it has 2 vocals in it
01:31 Okoratu: and ignores 00:32:955
01:31 Okoratu: 00:32:955 -
01:32 Okoratu: this one also does it all right then 00:33:126 (4) -
01:33 dorothy3242: 00:33:126 (4) - ?
01:33 Okoratu: it has just one held down vocal
01:33 Okoratu: which is correct
01:33 Okoratu: the other slider does contain two vocals
01:34 Okoratu: the other slider being 00:32:441 (3) -
01:35 dorothy3242: so I should try and do something else with (3)?
01:35 Okoratu: probably
01:35 Okoratu: if you do that
01:35 Okoratu: you could try to avoid the overlap of it and 00:32:441 (3,4) -
01:36 Okoratu: [http://puu.sh/dBHZj/f46aecd01f.jpg like its borders overlapping eehhh]
01:37 Okoratu: 00:34:498 (8) - also you went for 2 bar NCs here so this one should have one lol
01:38 dorothy3242: uhm this will sound like a really dumb question but how do I keep track of the number of bars? is it every four white ticks?
01:38 Okoratu:
http://puu.sh/dBI8k/8fc078dcef.jpg01:38 Okoratu: each big white is one bar
01:38 Okoratu: you seem to have put a new combo each 2 bars
01:39 Okoratu: 00:31:755 (1) - nc was here, bar 1 00:33:126 (4) - bar 3 00:34:498 (8) - bar 3
01:39 dorothy3242: OH ok I see I didn't know that I was just trying to put new combos where it sounded like one
01:39 Okoratu: next problem i have is 00:46:669 (4) -
01:40 dorothy3242: I guess I should've read up some more about the difference between white ticks and big white ticks
01:40 Okoratu: and that the vocal which is held down in 00:47:012 - is on its end
01:40 dorothy3242: on its end?
01:41 dorothy3242: oh you mean the bar stars in the middle of the note..?
01:41 dorothy3242: or?
01:41 Okoratu: the things you are mapping
01:41 Okoratu: are the red ticks
01:41 Okoratu: right
01:41 Okoratu: because they sing on the red ones
01:41 Okoratu: 00:46:669 - there is a held down vocal
01:41 Okoratu: which is cool because it is on an object which you have to press a key
01:41 Okoratu: and hold it
01:42 Okoratu: 00:47:012 - there also is a vocal which is held down
01:42 Okoratu: but there is the end of the first object and all you need to do to play that one is to release one key
01:43 Okoratu: [http://puu.sh/dBIrr/271da41971.jpg so 2 shorter sliders would fit that better imo]
01:44 dorothy3242: ah I see that makes sense (I get the feeling I say that too much but it really does;;)
01:44 Okoratu: 00:47:526 (7) - this one looks a bit curled up in itself [http://puu.sh/dBIwb/d48f3dfebe.jpg less dent could look better]
01:45 Okoratu: on 00:52:498 (3) - the held down vocal for once starts on the white tick [http://puu.sh/dBIAS/22cd32dfb6.jpg so that would follow that vocal better]
01:45 Okoratu: you could see why i said in the beginning that they don't do what you want them to do sometimes
01:46 dorothy3242: yes I definitely can
01:49 Okoratu: 01:06:041 (4) - this one yes this one does have the vocal on 01:06:384 - and a longer held down one in 01:06:726 - [http://puu.sh/dBIRA/e5089f2309.jpg so something like that could follow that better]
01:50 Okoratu: basically before i end up just telling you which ones follow vocals not as you might have intended you could do that yourself, all you really need to do is looking for vocals which are held down and either in sliders or on sliderends
01:50 Okoratu: and then ask yourself "does it make sense to skip that one or do i map it"
01:51 Okoratu: there you should take into consideration how much impact the vocal has for you personally or how you perceive it
01:52 dorothy3242: I will do my best to do that with your really helpful advice because whenever I tried to look for problems in it I couldn't figure out exactly how I'd be messing up
01:52 dorothy3242: and I'll especially pay even closer attention as I go through it again to fix these things
01:53 dorothy3242: really thank you so much for the help I hope that I'll be able to fix it up properly and not let your advice go to waste;;
01:53 dorothy3242: really really really thank you C':
01:53 Okoratu: just some stylistic things: 01:12:212 (1) - i would avoid slidershapes like that because it just looks like you didn't know where to go with the last anchor [http://puu.sh/dBJ9e/c6f613fa7a.jpg so something like less bending would be cool]
01:54 dorothy3242: super cool
01:55 Okoratu: 01:32:784 (3,1) - tiny overlaps like this look a bit unnecessary and also a bit messy - at least to me, since it isn't hard to avoid them it would make this thing more polished to just go ahead and avoid them
01:56 dorothy3242: Okay I'll try to power up my observation skills to avoid them better o:
01:56 Okoratu: do you know what would help
01:56 Okoratu: since most maps nowadays are really clean and stuff
01:57 Okoratu: just looking at things and sliders you noticed to be really clean or good looking and creative
01:57 dorothy3242: ?
01:57 Okoratu: while playing them
01:57 Okoratu: aka play the map
01:57 Okoratu: and then go into edit to see how they are made up
01:57 dorothy3242: okay I'll try to do that o:
01:57 dorothy3242: I've been looking at a lot of maps to see how they were made up but I wasn't really sure what I should be looking for before ahaha;
01:58 Okoratu: [https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/208596 this is inverness explaining how to make things look neat and what techniques there are]
01:58 Okoratu: it's a guide with lots of pictures
01:58 Okoratu: there you get some technical terms for these things and also a lot of explanation
01:58 Okoratu: how to make them
01:58 Okoratu: what's commonly wrong with them when they are used in beatmaps or how they can be "better"
01:59 Okoratu: some of this is highly subjective so it's up to you to believe what he says and how much you wanna follow that
01:59 dorothy3242: oh that's a really helpful link thank you! I knew about the guide to delicious sliders but not this one
02:00 Okoratu: [https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/239778/ also jenny wrote something very cool about hitobjects, hitsounding and patterns]
02:00 Okoratu: might want to read that as well
02:00 dorothy3242: I'll be sure to!
02:00 Okoratu: both are subjective but they also contain lots of advice
02:01 dorothy3242: a wealth of advice
02:01 Okoratu: this ended up being a bit more than just general things lol
02:01 Okoratu: also
02:02 Okoratu: do you change hitsound thing only for the claps in 00:25:755 (7) -
02:02 Okoratu: there's an easier way to do that without green lines
02:02 Okoratu: which takes like 2 % of the time needed
02:02 dorothy3242: there is?! :O
02:03 dorothy3242: :O
02:03 Okoratu: just click its head like this or something depending on what you want to hitsound
http://puu.sh/dBJLg/753f103296.jpg02:03 Okoratu: and on the left you will see
http://puu.sh/dBJMm/cc90d222d3.jpg02:03 Okoratu: Sampleset is the sampleset this thing uses for its hitnormal
02:03 Okoratu: Additions is the sampleset which is added to it
02:03 Okoratu: so you could just set that to Soft
02:03 Okoratu: and put the 2 claps on it
02:03 dorothy3242: so that's what that is for woah I had no idea O:
02:03 Okoratu: and are done
02:04 dorothy3242: that is
02:04 dorothy3242: woah
02:04 dorothy3242: woah that is that is so much easier
02:04 Okoratu: and you cannot confuse yourself with a lot of green lines
02:04 Okoratu:
02:04 dorothy3242:
02:05 Okoratu: should i post the log in the end ?
02:05 dorothy3242: I think that would be helpful because I'll be honest and say that I edit a bit too slowly to keep up with the suggestions and links xD''
02:05 dorothy3242: I was planning to open the notepad log and go through to the time signatures manually ehehe;
02:06 Okoratu: sure that way you could just treat this as a mod
02:06 dorothy3242: since it ended up being more than just a bit of general advice
02:06 dorothy3242: (which I still hope I'll be able to use properly)
02:07 Okoratu: if you got questions of any kind
02:07 Okoratu: be it playability or
02:07 Okoratu: general advice
02:07 Okoratu: you could just ask
02:07 Okoratu: i like this song
02:08 Okoratu: uhm
02:08 Okoratu: ok
02:08 Okoratu: i looked at the normal for 2 seconds now and already have something big to say
02:08 Okoratu: lol
02:08 Okoratu: [http://puu.sh/dBK5h/5fb5db5213.png the slider velocity here is the same as in hard]
02:08 Okoratu: which makes for very fast sliders at lower approachrate
02:09 Okoratu: and also super big base spacing
02:09 Okoratu: which are 2 things you wanna avoid here
02:10 dorothy3242: and so I should probably lower it to something like.. 1.0?
02:10 dorothy3242: or
02:10 Okoratu: 1.1 or something
02:10 Okoratu: the Easy is 0.8x
02:10 Okoratu: the Normal 1.4x
02:10 Okoratu: the Hard 1.4x
02:10 Okoratu:
02:10 dorothy3242: >_<
02:10 Okoratu: 1.1 would be the average
02:11 Okoratu: so that would make that even
02:11 Okoratu:
02:11 dorothy3242:
02:11 dorothy3242: It'll take 9 years but I'll go through and fix that then
02:11 Okoratu: it's 175 objects
02:11 Okoratu: that cannot take so long
02:12 dorothy3242: hopefully not two weekends
02:13 dorothy3242: xD