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osu!, touchscreens and you

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Tanomoshii Nekojou
503 posts
Joined November 2010
Tanomoshii Nekojou
thank you peppy for this post. I'm glad to see that everything is under control... :3

in my opinion, technically the 900pp play by freedomdiver is legit and deserving... why?
1st: its legit because touchscreen players are recognized official 'technically' as part of the game since touchscreen can be seen and set in everyone's profile.

old website:

new website:


2nd: its deserving because freedomdiver didn't 'break' any rules for the gameplay... if you have a problem with this.. go check the Rules wiki or FAQ wiki...

so deal with it guys... its not yet the end of the world... lets just hope a new and improved system will come soon... :3
NepNep-
56 posts
Joined August 2014
NepNep-

Tanomoshii Nekojou wrote:

thank you peppy for this post. I'm glad to see that everything is under control... :3

in my opinion, technically the 900pp play by freedomdiver is legit and deserving... why?
1st: its legit because touchscreen players are recognized official 'technically' as part of the game since touchscreen can be seen and set in everyone's profile.

old website:

new website:


2nd: its deserving because freedomdiver didn't 'break' any rules for the gameplay... if you have a problem with this.. go check the Rules wiki or FAQ wiki...

so deal with it guys... its not yet the end of the world... lets just hope a new and improved system will come soon... :3
Of course it's legit. The definition of legit circulates around "DOES NOT CHEAT", and I agree touchscreen isn't a cheat. Almost Everything you said is correct. Except you're missing one point: and It's that the play was overweighted. Unless your definition of "overweighted" does not include: FC'ing 3 times in a short amount of time, specifically 860pp, 890pp, and 900pp, Getting A 78% 900pp, and the very fact it was played in a 20 second map. Then I guess it isn't, but to me, I feel like 900pp was not deserved, but the play itself was legit.

I am glad Peppy is taking action on this. Since Touchscreen players are being bashed to hell after what Freedomdiver did. Well, I was bashing them too I guess.
Last edited by NepNep- , edited 1 time in total.
Devergen
1 post
Joined November 2017
Devergen

Girl wrote:

Nice
dumtea
50 posts
Joined September 2015
dumtea
I am really happy to see how well you are addressing the situation!
Swivelx
37 posts
Joined August 2014
Swivelx
Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
Nadeoki
7 posts
Joined July 2017
Nadeoki

hi-mei wrote:

I think its a long awaited time for a meticulous review of how PP score is calculated.

There is a very tangible difference between 4 min 7* HDHR map fc and 20 seconds HDHRDT haitai FC.

This thing HAS to be addressed at some point, I truly hope that the solution will be finded and we gonna shift from TV-size farming meta to something a bit different.

I am not a math-guru, but I can say that the formula of PP calculation is struggling when it comes to sliders.

Maps with lots of sliders gives less score, doesnt matter if the actual difficulty is higher than the common TV-size anime maps.

So the main thing that comes to my mind is that PP system doesnt care how you hit sliders, how much input sliders are having on the player during the gameplay, how it affects reading and such.

But for temporary solution I can suggest to nerf how much PP is coming from short maps, it is just not ok that 20 second map gives 900 pp. Its just wrong.


I diagree.
While it's true how stamina should be an important factor in skill, it would be biased to say short-hard maps are less difficult. Look at it by the eye of someone that can't pass it, why because he doesn't have the stamina and patience to or because he lacks the skill.
Simply making short maps gain less just serves a certain type of player and doesn't fix the issue.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Swivelx wrote:

Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
Why does everyone hate on catch the beat players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to dash and give thought. if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand. Plus with catch the beat you can't spin worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different game modes?

Because that's effectively what touchscreen is, a different game mode. It just doesn't fit.
goink
104 posts
Joined September 2012
goink

Swivelx wrote:

Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
It isn't hating on a playstyle and/or the people using it to claim that it is unbalanced. We shouldn't just leave it that way to protect touchscreen players' feelings or something. While they can't really stream and have limited map choices, they have enough maps to get a significant amount of pp, and in that way among others it's vastly different from using tablet/mouse, meaning it isn't fair to put the two on the same system. I think it takes plenty of practice to get good with it, as with anything, but that doesn't mean it's balanced or that it is equal to tablet/mouse. To sum it up, stating that the playstyle is unbalanced isn't an attack on any players.
Kondou-Shinichi
1,030 posts
Joined September 2015
Kondou-Shinichi

Swivelx wrote:

Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
it doesnt matter that ts cant stream when it doesnt give that much pp anyway
you see both tablet and mouse require actually moving a object to control the cursor moving to the circle, while also tapping on the keyboard at the same time
touchscreen? fuck that, just fingers tapping on a screen
NepNep-
56 posts
Joined August 2014
NepNep-

Swivelx wrote:

Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
It does take skill. Referencing freedomdivers 900pp, Doing something like that is still hard, but it's way too easy relative to other playstyles like Tablet and Mouse.

We all strive to get better, to climb ranks, but if there's a certain playstyle that most of us think is "broken", Then we have a problem don't we? People will think they're gaining way more pp than a regular tablet/mouse player, Which would result to flaming, calling Touchscreen an "Easy playstyle". They can't play certain maps unlike the other playstyles, but the main problem is pp itself.
kablaze
Former osu! Champion: 2020
69 posts
Joined July 2013
kablaze
hey guys im thinking, i was gonna open a burrito store but then i found out touchscreen is cheats. so can someone from the touchscreen osu players quit osu and come help with my burrito store .



with love from a TOP osu toucchscreen player.. . .

thanks
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
meanwhile this happens in mania and nobody cares

Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.

"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.

"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.

"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.

"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
Pachiru
osu! Alumni
2,957 posts
Joined June 2013
Pachiru
You're tilting about a circle clicking game, give relevant and useful arguments to make the game evolve instead of pretending that touchscreen is retarded -
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
It's relevant, though. And maybe useful too, as it may make people realize that touchscreen is not okay right now.
NepNep-
56 posts
Joined August 2014
NepNep-

Eraser wrote:

"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.

"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.

"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.

"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.

"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
^ This is Gold.
goink
104 posts
Joined September 2012
goink

NepNep- wrote:

^ This is Gold.
that's not an argument
DT-player
1 post
Joined August 2017
DT-player

Eraser wrote:

"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.

"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.

"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.

"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.

"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
that's perfect :lol:
Svenjapi
42 posts
Joined October 2017
Svenjapi
How about ppv3 makes it so that instead of being based on accuracy, pp is based on keeping a combo. The pp awarded for a score in ppv3 should be 75% of what it would be in ppv2. The scoring system should be much harsher which means that anything below 300 and the kanji 300 (what ever it is) breaks your combo. Max PP should also be a thing which mean a 20 star map with this new type of FC has a max pp of 1000, 10 stars is max 750 pp, 5 stars is max 300 pp and keep going down like that (from lower stars to the next star from that the pp max increase drastically e.g. 5 stars 300pp max to 10 stars 750pp max but higher stars less of an increase e.g. 10stars 750pp to 20 stars 1000pp). This new scoring system would balance touchscreen and make pp scoring better as keeping up a FC with touchscreen is difficult but jumps are easy and is difficult for tablet/mouse players as FCS are easier for them but jumps are harder.
Last edited by Svenjapi , edited 1 time in total.
NepNep-
56 posts
Joined August 2014
NepNep-

itsamemarioo wrote:

NepNep- wrote:

^ This is Gold.
that's not an argument
Since when was this post an argument?
Say that to the multiple people that said "Good work peppy!.

Ugh., People these days.
Harmony11
3 posts
Joined September 2016
Harmony11
Yes, the people who simply "good job Peppy" aren't really helping to solve the problem, but neither was Eraser's post at all. One person's shitpost does not in any way make another man's shitpost magically less shitty. Eraser's post was indeed completely irrelevant because it completely ignored the problems and issues that allow a 900pp Haitai touchscreen play to exist (many of which Peppy pointed out himself) and instead simply spouts nonsense meant entirely to fuel the "touchscreen is cheatscreen" circle-jerk.
Coriolis
8 posts
Joined March 2017
Coriolis
get a life and stop being mad over a circle clicking game lmao
NepNep-
56 posts
Joined August 2014
NepNep-

Harmony11 wrote:

Yes, the people who simply "good job Peppy" aren't really helping to solve the problem, but neither was Eraser's post at all. One person's shitpost does not in any way make another man's shitpost magically less shitty. Eraser's post was indeed completely irrelevant because it completely ignored the problems and issues that allow a 900pp Haitai touchscreen play to exist (many of which Peppy pointed out himself) and instead simply spouts nonsense meant entirely to fuel the "touchscreen is cheatscreen" circle-jerk.
It can also be interpreted as calming the people in this post arguing about whether the 900pp play was deserved. I worded that terribly, but you should get my point. People are still stating their opinions in this post with the 900pp, so I'd say it's relevant, but completely useless to the forum post itself.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-

Eraser wrote:

"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.

"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.

"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.

"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.

"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
This guy should quit, point 4 is compared so stupidly bad that I cringe. Maybe add something good to discussion.
NeoGfx
1 post
Joined April 2017
NeoGfx

lolarisan wrote:

Maybe there could be an option on your profile where u select touchscreen and it will automatically be sent to another leaderboard?
That would be a good idea
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
Alright, alright, here is a solution I had in mind. I only skimmed through the pages, so it might has been mentioned before.

Ban touchscreen from standard completely and make it a new game mode.

There's so much difference of playstyle between touchscreen and mouse/tablet, it doesn't even look comparable anymore. Touchscreen greatly reduces the aim aspect from standard, which is one the biggest things that differentiate osu! from other traditional rhythm games. Of course, they can still play standard maps, but as an auto-convert.

Touchscreen would be better off having its own game mode. People can be more creative with touchscreen here, with gimmicks like double taps, double sliders, or cross-screen-back-and-forth "stream", which are (practically) impossible in standard.
And there is osu arcade, why not take some elements from there too?
NepNep-
56 posts
Joined August 2014
NepNep-

Eraser wrote:

Alright, alright, here is a solution I had in mind. I only skimmed through the pages, so it might has been mentioned before.

Ban touchscreen from standard completely and make it a new game mode.

There's so much difference of playstyle between touchscreen and mouse/tablet, it doesn't even look comparable anymore. Touchscreen greatly reduces the aim aspect from standard, which is one the biggest things that differentiate osu! from other traditional rhythm games. Of course, they can still play standard maps, but as an auto-convert.

Touchscreen would be better off having its own game mode. People can be more creative with touchscreen here, with gimmicks like double taps, double sliders, or cross-screen-back-and-forth "stream", which are (practically) impossible in standard.
And there is osu arcade, why not take some elements from there too?
Peppy has already stated that separating the pp system between the two is not a good idea, and your suggestion is pretty much the same. It's in the main post.

It is possible, but doing so would be extremely costly. Already counting the sparsity of touchscreen players, It wont be as fun for them.
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
It's not about separating the pp system, it's about separating the whole peripheral. Make it a new unique game instead of a way of playing standard.
NepNep-
56 posts
Joined August 2014
NepNep-

Eraser wrote:

It's not about separating the pp system, it's about separating the whole peripheral. Make it a new unique game instead of a way of playing standard.
It's still the same thing isn't it? Separating into two unique gamemodes is still splitting the leaderboards, Just like what peppy said.

peppy already stated the problems of doing this.
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
Well, it's not our job to decide if it's possible or not, so we'll see.
Last edited by Caput Mortuum , edited 1 time in total.
Grim Rapper
197 posts
Joined February 2015
Grim Rapper
Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one? Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps? Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?

So many questions, yet too complcated to answer
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting


We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
Hisshou
16 posts
Joined October 2016
Hisshou

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one? Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps? Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?

So many questions, yet too complcated to answer
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting


We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
ExGon got a 1099pp play w/ touchscreen pre-tag4 nerf, however people did outcry over it which is why tag4 was nerfed etc.

Edit: Corrected by Mismagius
Last edited by Hisshou , edited 1 time in total.
Mismagius
9,237 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
no he didnt, the play was post-nerf. the play that caused tag4 to give no pp was kuvster's 578pp play
twirl_old_1
twirl_old_1
touchscreen is possibly the play style that is most faithful to the original game; right after tablet! no part of me thinks that touchscreen should be nerfed as they have their own flaws (not being able to stream)!
OsuGodGG
0 posts
Joined March 2016
OsuGodGG
This has probably already been suggested, but why not make a sort of "Multi-Platform osu!droid" ? I always thought that abandoning osu!droid was a shame, and with a version of it supporting Android, iOS and Windows, it could give touchscreen players their own leaderboards and expand osu! as a game. The mechanic where you would tap on a stream with one finger, and use another to actually be able to accurately hit streams would make it much more of a rythm game experience as well. I'm assuming there's a good reason for osu!droid being canceled, but this would give it an awesome purpose in my opinion.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
We did.

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one?
There was.

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
The score isn't popular.

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
No one has tried to discussed "pp inflation".

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps?
People have to retry more to FC the map than to just enjoy a map.

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Because people are incapable of understanding that the issue is aim, accuracy is just a technical limitation.

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Because pp was made like 4 years ago and the idea of doing streams above 250bpm consistently wasn't really considered.

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
You do.

Grim Rapper wrote:

Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
This game is also an aim game and you're not getting it.

Grim Rapper wrote:

We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
We are aware that pp is flawed and that touchscreen isn't comparable to other input methods.

twirl wrote:

touchscreen is possibly the play style that is most faithful to the original game; right after tablet! no part of me thinks that touchscreen should be nerfed as they have their own flaws (not being able to stream)!
This isn't the original game.
NepNep-
56 posts
Joined August 2014
NepNep-

Grim Rapper wrote:

Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
Osu isn't just a rhythm game, it's a competetive game, and that's something you're not getting. If there's a playstyle that unbalances the ranking system of the game, A system that allows players to set absurd scores according to most of us, then that calls for a reform.
A l i c e
10 posts
Joined January 2013
A l i c e
My question is: What will removing PP do relative to the ranking system? I do recall a time where we didn't have pp, and at that time I was fairly new... but I distinctly recall gaining 30k ranks from one play where I 70% FC'd an "Insane" (5* at the time, when it was the max amount of stars) AR7 map. Isn't that sort of broken? I jumped from rank 87k to 54k in that one play. pp solved this artificial skill-increase problem... so are we hoping for that to come back? Is that why everyone wants to take away pp? But if pp is changed, then what will we do? Score V2 is a largely failing system that shouldn't be implemented and from what I can tell has been dumpstered. So now where are we headed?
Grim Rapper
197 posts
Joined February 2015
Grim Rapper

jesse1412 wrote:

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
We did.
It's been 2 years. Unless if I missed some discussion somewhere, I'd never see anything else beside 1 youtube comment

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one?
There was.
When I said as "this one", is as chaotic as the Developer (a.k.a peppy) himself needed to resolve it

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
The score isn't popular.
I'm talking about difficulty, not about the fame of the map? What's this mentality of "We'll fix this after the others are yelling it to us"?

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
No one has tried to discussed "pp inflation".
:roll:

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps?
People have to retry more to FC the map than to just enjoy a map.
Which is will become more famous, and more player will adore the map and the mapper, the mapper create the same thing that the player wants, and the cycle continues. Great Idea for a commuity to uphold quality, right?

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Because people are incapable of understanding that the issue is aim, accuracy is just a technical limitation.
SapphireGhost and Bonk (despite their inactivity) shows that touchscreen CAN have accuracy, it's the preference that makes it a technical limitation, do you still want to ban them based of their playstyle?

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Because pp was made like 4 years ago and the idea of doing streams above 250bpm consistently wasn't really considered.
Is that suppose to be the the argument against me?

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
You do.
Why you're targeting me when I'm targeting about the controversial play? I'm talking about why when the controversial play received so many pp with that glaring accuracy, when comparing to YOUR insane streams play on Native Faith get less pp? or any straining streams play at all?

Grim Rapper wrote:

Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
This game is also an aim game and you're not getting it.
Then why streams are exist in the first place? You can change it into sliderkicks (or whatever do you want to called them) and it still be ranked if the QAT was following your logic. The reason of Hollow Wings even makes a continuous squares in a 1/8 map is EXACTLY trying to counter your argument (imo, idk if HW is intending to do that)

Grim Rapper wrote:

We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
We are aware that pp is flawed and that touchscreen isn't comparable to other input methods.
but let's blame the touchscreen player instead, we know the pp system is FLAWED, but people enjoying it right? and A LOT OF mapper enjoy ABUSING it by making EVERYTHING pp-based so why not, RIGHT?
Still didn't answer anything imo, but it was better than ignorance
Cheers, No hard feelings
uberpancake
160 posts
Joined December 2012
uberpancake
I lost count of how many times you put words in jesse's mouth there, grim Rapper.
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