PP has failed us....

love the FL boost to pp its great

Yu_Makari wrote:

love the FL boost to pp its great

FL isn't the easiest thing tho. Do you have any tips for FL?

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp

Cipse wrote:

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp

8 years ago a bad thing happened... More seriously, 8 years ago when the multipliers were decided the mapping meta was quite different with higher CS and lower AR. On these sort of maps HR is harder than DT but mapping has since evolved while scoring and mods have stayed the same.

There was some work done behind the scenes by Tom94 to allow for you to have more than one score on the same map for different mod combinations. Your highest score would show up on the leaderboards but you would have the pp from your highest pp play but I believe this has been shelved due to a large increase in time to retrieve scores ingame.

ScoreV2 currently has a 1.1x multiplier for HR and a 1.2x multiplier for DT. This would mean even a HDHR score would be beaten by just DT but we don't know how far away it is from being implemented into the game fully. In the meantime you just have to avoid overwriting DT scores with HR, though HDDT does beat out HR so if you can play HD not all is lost.

119410501 wrote:

Remove PP rankings.

Fucking 3 years ago still true AF

Sorcerer wrote:

Cipse wrote:

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp

8 years ago a bad thing happened... More seriously, 8 years ago when the multipliers were decided the mapping meta was quite different with higher CS and lower AR. On these sort of maps HR is harder than DT but mapping has since evolved while scoring and mods have stayed the same.

There was some work done behind the scenes by Tom94 to allow for you to have more than one score on the same map for different mod combinations. Your highest score would show up on the leaderboards but you would have the pp from your highest pp play but I believe this has been shelved due to a large increase in time to retrieve scores ingame.

ScoreV2 currently has a 1.1x multiplier for HR and a 1.2x multiplier for DT. This would mean even a HDHR score would be beaten by just DT but we don't know how far away it is from being implemented into the game fully. In the meantime you just have to avoid overwriting DT scores with HR, though HDDT does beat out HR so if you can play HD not all is lost.

I disagree about the current aspects regarding hard rockversus DT doubletime. A big problem with that is that even with hidden doubletime if you get a Max spin with hard rock you cannot beat it with HD DT unless the map itself has more bananas with double time then it or no mod than it does with hard rock even then it's a stretch a huge problem these days is players like myself as well as higher tier players who have done at least One HR score on any given map and cannot go back to beat it with DT when they feel if they are able to FC. Unless you are referring to a couple of maps even then it's debatable that HR is ever harder than double time referring to a high-ish tier PP play even if you take ExGon's utage HR one miss which is insane don't forget that it would be three times as crazy to FC or SS that with double time even 10 miss would be considered overjoy tier. If you an HD HR FC on oriental with a very good spin and are unable to beat it with HD DT can't you see something is wrong with that?? Hard rock is a garbage mod I am sorry (Not sorry) to everyone that was offended by that I'm sorry to all the farmers that have gotten very far in a broken PP system that's meaningless and spent years learning the mod that is overglorified no mod and that their speciality and their mod of choice is completely and entirely and undebatabley easier than double time if you compare on average a 4 to 5 star map plus with either hard rock or double time on at least AR nine these players who will strive to push the physical speed that can be achieved in CTB will forever be unrewarded due to an inferior mod that everyone seems to like way too much. Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT. At that point it's broken beyond all belief and I have lost all hope. Some people will call this. Post salty due to me not having more than a few HR plays but at the end of the day it's simple facts distorted scythe with hard rock how many players have done that quite a few how many players have done it with doubletime NONE I could either list every other PP map that is been FC with HR or I can not at all because if I need to elaborate any further or you all have serious mental issues and should get yourself checked. OK that was salty but what do you want from me I'm just a guy who's spent 2 1/2 going on three years of my life playing a game that not only was already broken but continues to deteriorate to this day even beyond all repair or any kind of hope can save it's integrity. Has the game been and continues to be today, a waste of time as far as ranking or scoring yes! Is it a waste of time as a fun minigame? yeah in that case enjoy yourself but if you look for any other merit beyond that go play something other than CTB

Amlink wrote:

Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT.

Ehhm, they never said anything about that, only that HR was considered a harder mod 8YEARS ago, which i would think to be true considering the wacky spacing and high CS of old maps in the beginning of osu!.

Kingkevin30 wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT.

Ehhm, they never said anything about that, only that HR was considered a harder mod 8YEARS ago, which i would think to be true considering the wacky spacing and high CS of old maps in the beginning of osu!.

I was aware they didnt say that "I disagree about the current aspects regarding hard rock versus DT doubletime." i was just taking what they said and using that to state my point and have some context to my post. it wasn't a direct response to them but it was simply using the topic they had already established as a way to get some background info on what I was writing about.

Don't trash people because you have forgotten how to enjoy the game.

Also, probably the only truly precise way for pp system would be to have a group of (knowledgeable, skilled and incorruptible) players dictate the amount of pp a song should give with all mods.

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.

Kingkevin30 wrote:

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.

Zak wrote:

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.

Ohh ok, maybe i skipped over that, since I got my information from the coffee hour aswell.
I thought it was more of an invitation for working toghther with certain community Members for a new PP System
Didn't actually hear that they said that they are already in the "beginning stages" of setting things up with community Members

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself

Zak wrote:

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself

thx i knew i could help if i just put my mind to it im so glad i could figure out a way to resolve this horrible dilemma

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

many map gave less pp but diffcult is much harder.

and then some ctb map gives pp too much.

Amlink wrote:

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

Ascendance wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

Tbh the pp system is quite fine but it should be slightly changed in terms of how much a convert map gives and how much a ctb map gives ! What I basicly try to explain is that a 6 star convert diff should give the same amount of pp what a 8 star ctb map give !! for example : ( big black fc 6,54 star = any ctb map ~ 8,5 star !

thats my thoughts about that because some ctb maps are quite easy compared to convert maps

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

Skyleia wrote:

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

ignoring pp would be not an option because you play for it or most users !! Also your explaining is not bad but what I mean is simply that we need 2 own ctb pp systems one calculated for ctb (right now is a good system for it) and one for converts

Ascendance wrote:

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

It's kind of hard to just ignore something that the entire community is obsessing over, but there really isn't a good change offered. The community just needs to learn that rank doesn't mean anything when it's just as easy to get 500pp as it is to get 800pp

I'm just gonna leave this here

Just fucking stop holy shit

I didn't see the today's post of Amlink about pp

Axiaan wrote:

I didn't see the today's post of Amlink about pp

remove pp

Axiaan wrote:

i support this image

how about we just remove osu in general hmmmmmMMM

Could a mod just lock this thread until someone is finally going to tweak the pp system I just don't see the possibility of worthwhile discussion in here.

My image was just a joke about Amlink
I don't support his idea about pp

Seph wrote:

how about we just remove osu in general hmmmmmMMM

remove pp not the game remove pp

Axiaan wrote:

My image was just a joke about Amlink
I don't support his idea about pp

neither do the new thousands of people who will never get to know the true game without this farming meta back when i could proudly tell people i played osu now its a joke and anyone i mention it to finds out about how rank works and finds out about how the community is compared to what he or she has heard before and they drop it immedaitly its very selfish for so many users to care so much about something that only has poisned and ruined what i believe ctb was and could still be what a shame that so many people would rather have a number than a chance to save the game and restore it to the second home so many of us spent our time in

I feel having a rank is a really good thing only if the actual pp was accurate or if there was some other way to determine rank or something

I think everyone agrees that converts are much harder than ctb specifics and therefore should have a higher starrating but why exactly is that the case? Obviosly turning a map into a ctb specific does not change anything and will not get a higher starrating in return. The biggest difference in my opinion is that specifics use much more hyperjumps than converts and this is exactly where the problem is with the current difficulty algorhythm.
1. If you look at fullscreenjumps and halfscreenjumps they play exactly the same but the fullscreenjumps give a higher starrating.
2. Edgejumps are way harder to play than hyperjumps but give lower starrating (most of the time)
In order to solve this there is a very simple solution when calculating the difficulty of a map just change every value you'd give a hyperjump to the value you'd give a hyperjumptrigger (a note that is just far away to trigger a hyperdash / slightly higher distance than an edgejump)
In total this would not boost the converts but rather nerf the overwheighted ctb specifics.
Here are 5 difficulties I made (20 notes each) just to show how much starrating every pattern gives:
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/739209#fruits/1559894
If you apply what I said for example all the hyperwalk maps would not be 10*+ but rather 3* because they would look like normal streams to the system (exactly how they are played as well)
1 more change I would make. Just let the system ignore notes in the beginning of the map where you do not need to move to catch them.
This would make all those 20-300* maps where you press nothing 0* and also with all the changes I think Der Wald would be an 8-10* map instead of 19* and maybe rankable then.
Just let me know what you think.

Pretty much everything you said has been said here before, it's just we have no one to make a new system at all so we're left with what we have.

We don't really need a new system tho just add 5-10 lines to the current one once it's added here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Catch/CatchDifficultyCalculator.cs