Which is better, full-alternating or semi-alternating?
There are many guides and discussions on alternating vs. single-tapping, with advice like "alternating makes high bpm jumps easier, but single-tapping makes accuracy easier on slower jumps", but here I just want to compare and discuss the pros and cons of full- and semi-alternating. Would like to hear other people's experiences and thoughts on it. : )

TL;DR: My preliminary conclusion (which may change upon hearing your arguments/experiences) is that an expert in full-alternating should be able to play fast complex tapping patterns with more ease than an expert in semi-alternating, but that it's much harder to learn to be an expert in full-alternating. For some people, the benefits of full-alternating may not be worth the extra time it takes to be good at it. I'm not confident in this conclusion at all, and results could vary for different people.

By the way, if you want to learn full-alternating, McOsu has an experimental mod that forces you to do full-alternating (McOsu can be played without VR). There's also this program that uses an AHK script to force full-alternating in regular osu! (you won't get banned even when using it ranked). Also, this and this are good maps for practicing alternating (playable on half-time).

Terminology
Single-tapping is when you use only one key (e.g. X) for everything except streams.

Full-alternating is when you alternate between X and Y for everything. So if you look at the key counter on the right side of your screen while playing, the K1 and K2 counter will always be the same or differ by 1. (If the counter isn't there, you can reactivate it in the osu! settings.)

Semi-alternating is when you alternate between X and Y except for some complex note patterns. For example, suppose there are three consecutive triples in the song. Full-alternators would tap them with XYX YXY XYX, whereas single-tappers and semi-alternators would tap them with XYX XYX XYX.

Arguments for semi-alternating
• Semi-alternating requires you to learn fewer base finger patterns, so it is easier to learn and may be less complex to play (or maybe not, see discussion below). Here "base finger patterns" are things like using XYX for triples and XY or YXfor doubles. Consider the example from earlier, where you have to play three consecutive triples. The full-alternator uses two different base finger patterns (XYX and YXY) whereas the semi-alternator only has to use a single base finger pattern three times (XYX). The semi-alternator can choose to start every stream, quadruple, triple and double with X, whereas the full-alternator has to learn and use twice the number of patterns--both the patterns that start with X and the patterns that start with Y.

• Almost no top players use full-alternating. (Rustbell and Azer semi-alternate.) And since the top players tend to know what's best (goes the argument), full-alternating is probably not best. The counter-argument is that this argument is a base rate fallacy, and the reason most top players are not full-alternators is simply because it is very hard to learn and few people try it out. So even if full-alternating gave a significant advantage, we would still expect few top players to be full-alternators. The other counter-argument is: Bubbleman and Vettel. They're full-alternators and they're GOOD.

• Full-alternating is really hard to learn. I personally started out with single-tapping, and then after half a year, I decided to learn full-alternating. I found it difficult, but I eventually learned to do it instinctively (not saying I was good at it, I'm just saying that it felt like my main playstyle at the time). But I eventually drifted (unconsciously) towards being a semi-alternator because it was slightly easier and my brain reinforced the behaviours that were slightly better at producing dopamine (i.e. hitting patterns successfully). So even if you feel like full-alternating is your main playstyle, it could take longer to consolidate it as your permanent playstyle.

Arguments for full-alternating
• It feels smoother. Semi-alternating feels more like stuttering through complex tapping patterns tbh. Full-alternating feels smoother than semi-alternating, and that may mean that I need to practice semi-alternating until it feels just as smooth, or it may mean that full-alternating will always feel smoother even for experts at both styles. And I'm assuming that how smooth the different playstyles feel affects performance on complex tapping patterns (i.e. that it is important for the skill known as finger control). This is actually my main intuitive argument in support of full-alternating, but it's not a very strong argument.

• Full-alternating fast complex tapping patterns requires less complex hand movements, and may therefore be easier to play fast once you know how (or maybe not, see discussion below). Consider the three consecutive triples again. A semi-alternator would play them XYX XYX XYX, but this requires more hand movement than XYX YXY XYX because the semi-alternator would have to lift their X-finger before every triple whereas the full-alternator is perfectly set up for doing an YXY right after doing a XYX.

• It's cool. Almost no top player full-alternates? That just makes players like Bubbleman and Vettel cooler. They are unique flowers amidst swathes of grey blooms.

Which style enables higher speed?
It seems to me like there are two ways your speed could be limited. Either you have physical limits (i.e. your tapping-hand can't tap faster, or your aim-hand can't move fast enough) or you have cognitive limits (i.e. you're too slow in figuring out which instructions to send to your hand, or you can't read the patterns on the screen fast enough).

I argued earlier that full-alternating strains your hand less, because it requires fewer movements through complex tapping patterns, so you should be able to play higher BPM with full-alternating without approaching your physical limit than with semi-alternating. But I also argued that semi-alternating requires you to send fewer types of tapping-instructions to your hand (e.g. XYX XYX XYX is only one type of instruction sent three times), so maybe it enables you to play higher bpm without approaching your cognitive limit? Maybe, but I think the truth is a bit more complicated than that.

I think that, yes, in the learning phase, full-alternators will be limited by their cognitive speed limit for longer. They will have more types of tapping-patterns that they need to practice, so it will take longer to become good at them. But I also think that once a full-alternator and a semi-alternator has reached expert level at their respective tapping-patterns, the full-alternator will have the advantage. Why? Because the full-alternator will need to use fewer hand-movements (as explained earlier) and that means that they need to send fewer muscle-activating instructions from the brain. So if the cognitive speed limit is determined by the size and number of the muscle-activating instructions, then full-alternating enables higher speeds.

(For the unnecessarily technical-minded: the Kolmogorov complexity of the instructions sent by a full-alternator may be higher for any given osu! beatmap, but the speed-limit of the brain doesn't depend on theoretical Kolmogorov complexity, it only depends on the number of synapses and the total axonal and dendritic length it needs its action potential to traverse, and the length of that pathway which is myelinated and... ಠ_ಠ)

So I conclude with a graph I just made up. (Key assumptions: Full-alternating takes longer to master, but is superior once mastered. The difference between the two playstyles is small once mastered. The benefits of each unit of practice decreases over time.)

First off, let me thank you for you post, it was definitely an interesting and informative read.
As for my personal experience after roughly 120 hours of playtime of trying out all the things - including the aforementioned singletapping vs. semi-alternating vs. full-alternating - I couldn't make out any noteable difference for me.

At times I felt singletapping worked better for accuracy, and while I felt the results were there to prove the theory I could always replicate similar results or identical results with - for the sake of the argument - the other two tapping styles. The same can be said about the proposed benefits of both other styles, I never saw the difference.

Though I believe my - admittedly - failure to distinguish between them comes from a lack of 1.) dedicated practice and 2.) playtime dedicated solely to one style to perfect it enough, so take what I wrote above with a grain of salt, as with everything referencing personal experience as proof of concept.

My goal was never to "be at the limits of my (physical)ability" in terms of speed or pattern recognition, my goal has always been to play what is challenging to me, be it either through higher BPM or harder to read patterns. As such I never really had the time to - actively - focus on what my hands were doing (dedicated focus is - in my opinion - required to learn a skill). The consequence of it for me at least was that I chose to let my fingers and brain to their magic by themselves, do what they think is the right way in any given situation to play a pattern, a stream, tripled, w/e.

At times I will singletap using either my Index- or Middle-finger, fully alternate, semi-alternate or just mix everything up - which I guess is the most appropriate way to describe my particular way of playing -


(This section might be going a bit off-topic, but I do still think I make a somewhat interesting point here )

My focus is playing osu! as a rhythm game, which - again I hate to always point this out, but I do think it is necessary to avoid possible conflict over this matter - is the proper way to play this game instead of rigorously enforcing a particular way of play for its perceived/theoretical advantages over other styles.
Now do not misunderstand me, I am not suggesting this was your intention or anything, it's simply how I think a large proportion of the playerbase plays:

Sacrificing what feels most natural or most comfortable for benefits which you do not recognize until you are at a much higher level of play. Learning to fully alternate or semi-alternate should come much, much later in the learning curve, focus first on learning the basics, get a good understanding of how to play this rhythm game.

Now I kinda lost my train of thought here so I guess I'll leave it at that for now, if I do however remember what I wanted to say, I shall either edit my post or just make a new one here.

Enough of my gibberish, THANK YOU! again for posting this, as mentioned before, it was an interesting read that can - hopefully - lead to an interesting discussion on the topic.. Have a nice day, everyone!

Stamina should be considered as well. Tapping using the fingers isn't the only way to tap; one can also tap using the wrist or even the forearm.
Wrist tapping or forearm tapping not only gives extra stamina that semi-alternating playstyles need, it's also even more difficult to integrate said tapping techniques into the full-alternating playstyle, specially wrist tapping which seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating (most top players wrist-tap on anything slower than 1/4 or 1/6 beats). Because they compensate for lack of stamina (in semi-alternating), it's almost not worth full-alternating; it's easy to see why the majority of top players semi-alternate.

Full-alternating fast complex tapping patterns requires less complex hand movements, and may therefore be easier to play fast once you know how (or maybe not, see discussion below). Consider the three consecutive triples again. A semi-alternator would play them XYX XYX XYX, but this requires more hand movement than XYX YXY XYX because the semi-alternator would have to lift their X-finger before every triple whereas the full-alternator is perfectly set up for doing an YXY right after doing a XYX.

I disagree with this being a straight up advantage.
If you're full-alternating from the first minute of abandoning mouse-only (like me), you're well setup to run straight down into bad habits because you can get away with a much less efficient movement on patterns like that.
If a semi-alternator or singletapper plays XYX XYX XYX he is effectively training his streams and his stamina because the finger the pattern is started with goes at the same speed as an actual stream XYXYXYXYXYX.
If a full-alternating player is doing that, he is not training his streams at all, he is training triples.

This difference results in a significantly better learning curve for single-tappers and semi-alternators regarding stream speed and stamina. This is what I see as a major reason as for why full-alternating players aren't that high in rank.

Velura wrote:

First off, let me thank you for you post, it was definitely an interesting and informative read.

So polite! Thanks for a long reply! ^^

Velura wrote:

Sacrificing what feels most natural or most comfortable for benefits which you do not recognize until you are at a much higher level of play. Learning to fully alternate or semi-alternate should come much, much later in the learning curve, focus first on learning the basics, get a good understanding of how to play this rhythm game.

Well, maybe. When I started out, I put a lot of effort into thinking about the optimal ways to play and the optimal habits to form (e.g. mouse sensitivity, eye movement, mouse grip, and other mouse-related stuff) in order to be as good as I could possibly be in a couple of years. (Admittedly, I kinda like overthinking things, and treating everything as a science just for fun... : P ) I thought it was important to think about this early on, so that I wouldn't have to waste time changing habits later on.

And changing habits only slightly is really hard. For example, if I start out becoming good at semi-alternating, changing to full-alternating is more difficult than learning full-alternating from the start. This is because when you're already good at semi-alternating, the temptation will always be there to do semi-alternating instead of full-alternating, for short-term gain. Also, if you're used to playing XYX XYX XYX, and you're trying to force yourself to do XYX YXY XYX, the latter will be harder to learn the more used you are to playing XYX XYX XYX.

deemoplayer47 wrote:

Stamina should be considered as well. Tapping using the fingers isn't the only way to tap; one can also tap using the wrist or even the forearm.
Wrist tapping or forearm tapping not only gives extra stamina that semi-alternating playstyles need, it's also even more difficult to integrate said tapping techniques into the full-alternating playstyle, specially wrist tapping which seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating (most top players wrist-tap on anything slower than 1/4 or 1/6 beats). Because they compensate for lack of stamina (in semi-alternating), it's almost not worth full-alternating; it's easy to see why the majority of top players semi-alternate.

Oi, good point. I never thought about that you could tap using your wrist/forearm muscles in order to alleviate stress on your finger muscles. Switching between wrist-tapping and finger-tapping mid-song should give you more stamina, and it is easier for single-tappers to control which muscles they use for their taps.

But what do you mean "wrist tapping seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating"? Both full-alternating and semi-alternating seems to require finger muscles (maybe wrist/forearm muscles as well, depending on how you do it) equally much, except maybe semi-alternating which puts extra stress on one finger. Not sure what you mean.

Endaris wrote:

If a semi-alternator or singletapper plays XYX XYX XYX he is effectively training his streams and his stamina because the finger the pattern is started with goes at the same speed as an actual stream XYXYXYXYXYX.
If a full-alternating player is doing that, he is not training his streams at all, he is training triples.

This difference results in a significantly better learning curve for single-tappers and semi-alternators regarding stream speed and stamina. This is what I see as a major reason as for why full-alternating players aren't that high in rank.

Oh, interesting observation. XYX XYX XYX is sort of like streaming, except you skip three Y's. My counterargument would be that since you're skipping those Y's, that whole 3-triple pattern is so different from streaming that they're not very good streaming practice. I would predict that XYX YXY XYX is an equally efficient way to practice streaming. Both ways are negligible practice for streaming when compared to actually streaming, so it shouldn't be factor in deciding whether to full-alternate or semi-alternate. I think.

But yeah, the semi-alternator gets to train each of the base finger patterns they use more than the full-alternator, since the full-alternator has more base finger patterns they need to practice.

Mio Winter wrote:

So polite! Thanks for a long reply! ^^

Haha no problem, I take every chance I get to ramble on and on and on..

Mio Winter wrote:

(Admittedly, I kinda like overthinking things, and treating everything as a science just for fun... : P )

I tend to do the same, or as a close friend of mine put it very eloquently: " you play games to the death". I have a tendency to really get into a particular game, trying to learn as much as I can to be "The Best"

Mio Winter wrote:

And changing habits only slightly is really hard.

That is absolutely true - from my own experience - and breaking your habits willfully is a tough decision to make and requires constant effort.

Mio Winter wrote:

[...]already good at [whatever], the temptation will always be there to do [what you have been doing] instead of [what might be beneficial], for short-term gain

I hope you don't mind me taking this to another level of abstraction ( also sry for editing your post a bit ). This kind of takes me back to my initial post - also I think I have remembered what I forgot at the end of it - Most players - I think it is most or at least the majority of people looking for advice on how to improve quickly - tend to overemphasize the importance of one particular aspect and focus only on one particular type of skill, subsequently losing perspective for what might really be important or equally important. In this case learning to adapt any given tapping style might take away the necessary attention required to learn "reading",aim, "rhythm sense" etc. at a stable and steady pace.
(This might not really be a problem in actual play, since people are very different in how fast they learn and what is required for them to be able to learn, so in all actuality it might not be bad)

( A similar point is brought up in Azer's discussion video and I think it is worth checking out. It's only 4:49min so not too long: [Are new players headed the wrong way?])

Also, this is just a side note, but I didn't know you had added me to your friendslist

Mio Winter wrote:

Endaris wrote:

If a semi-alternator or singletapper plays XYX XYX XYX he is effectively training his streams and his stamina because the finger the pattern is started with goes at the same speed as an actual stream XYXYXYXYXYX.
If a full-alternating player is doing that, he is not training his streams at all, he is training triples.

This difference results in a significantly better learning curve for single-tappers and semi-alternators regarding stream speed and stamina. This is what I see as a major reason as for why full-alternating players aren't that high in rank.

Oh, interesting observation. XYX XYX XYX is sort of like streaming, except you skip three Y's. My counterargument would be that since you're skipping those Y's, that whole 3-triple pattern is so different from streaming that they're not very good streaming practice. I would predict that XYX YXY XYX is an equally efficient way to practice streaming. Both ways are negligible practice for streaming when compared to actually streaming, so it shouldn't be factor in deciding whether to full-alternate or semi-alternate. I think.

But yeah, the semi-alternator gets to train each of the base finger patterns they use more than the full-alternator, since the full-alternator has more base finger patterns they need to practice.

Well no.
The point is that the full-alternator won't learn to properly reset his fingers because he always has enough time to laze.
The main difference between XYX XYX XYX and XYX YXY XYX is that on the former you absolutely need to properly reset your X finger for the next note. And properly resetting your finger is something that makes you good, fast and accurate in the long run.
The full-alternating player is highly susceptible to not doing this, getting him stuck.

As mentioned, I've been full-alternating from the start and my movements are inefficient and my speed on streams and stamina is horrible in comparison to other people of my rank (and far below) even though I'm (probably far, don't wanna boast) above average on pattern reading and accuracy compared to other players of my rank. As you would sort of expect from 650h of full alternating.

With the meta heavily favouring aim, semi alternating is just more advantageous as you brought up, it's less mentally demanding (although from my understanding you don't really "alternate" triples if they are high enough bpm, you're including 1/4 and 2/4 timing in the discussion which steps in the grey area of streams and alternating, and it leads to a complete different discussion, but I'll indulge in your very specific example)

Endaris brought it up already, XYX XYX XYX simulates streams, just with 3 less Ys, if you learn triples you'll intuitively know how to stream, and vice versa as they require the similar muscle movement, developping muscle memory for both patterns, easier overall learning curve. and whether you like it or not the current meta is very aim heavy so your muscle memory for tapping is not a priority and it just best to have a tapping style that's consistent and easily recreate when similar timing pattern comes up, so you can focus on aim.

a relatable example for me is the piano, you learn scale, 99% of the time your tutor will tell you the order of fingers to tap the corresponding notes, rinse and repeat and you'll develop muscle memory for that. If you are given 3 consecutive sets of scales you wouldn't play the 3 different sets in 3 different tapping order, cause in practical environment you would have to also handle need to handle dynamic, articulation and speed, your coordination can only go so far you wouldn't bother to change tapping order.

But you might say "but N0thingSpecial you're still not addressing the theoretical possibility of a person developing muscle memory for two different taping order XYX & YXY enough so that it becomes intuitive", yes I do agree in a perfect world that perfectly dividing your tapping between both fingers is good for stamina and probably rhythm sense as you're so versatile with your tapping order, but to what extent does it stop being useful and it becomes redundant? why not alternate between 4 fingers? in piano if you need to play a single note rapidly you actually alternate between 3 fingers, but why 3? In a perfect world I could death stream 600 BPM if learn to shift my wrist and arm to alternate 5 fingers to tap 2 buttons. This is kinda where this discussion falls apart as you soon realise it's just preference.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

But you might say "but N0thingSpecial you're still not addressing the theoretical possibility of a person developing muscle memory for two different taping order XYX & YXY enough so that it becomes intuitive", yes I do agree in a perfect world that perfectly dividing your tapping between both fingers is good for stamina and probably rhythm sense as you're so versatile with your tapping order, but to what extent does it stop being useful and it becomes redundant? why not alternate between 4 fingers? in piano if you need to play a single note rapidly you actually alternate between 3 fingers, but why 3? In a perfect world I could death stream 600 BPM if learn to shift my wrist and arm to alternate 5 fingers to tap 2 buttons. This is kinda where this discussion falls apart as you soon realise it's just preference.

I've wondered why top players use two fingers to stream (maybe Gayzmcgee uses tap with pen as well? I'm not sure). Binding the Z, X, C and V keys on your keyboard to letters XZXZXZ should enable you to stream with four fingers, giving an advantage in speed and stamina (maybe not acc, but you can switch between using two and four keys). Is this even legal?

Anyway, I am a bit reluctant to start doing it, simply because I don't see other people doing it. It seems like such an obvious advantage that if I did it, it wouldn't be competing against other players on their terms anymore. It'd be like entering the ring armed with a machine gun. Kinda like the problem freedomdiver has with getting really high scores with touchpad--he's afraid he's competing using unfair means (read his profile). Is it even legal?

Binding your mousekeys to your keyboard is definitely not legal.
It exists as feature request and it was denied.

Endaris wrote:

Binding your mousekeys to your keyboard is definitely not legal.

I did the genius thing and actually read the osu!rules and they're just gold, lol.

3. Birthday threads are allowed only in Off-Topic, and nowhere else. All birthday threads must be accompanied with no less than three (3) images of dancing anime girls or they will be ruthlessly thrown under a bus.

But to the point, you're thinking about the following rule?

2. Play fair. Using third-party utilities of any kind to get any sort of advantage is not okay. This includes things like macro programs, aim-assist programs, timescale modification, and so on. If a program is doing something to help you play the game that you should be doing yourself, it isn't okay!

Or did you get the impression that binding M1 and M2 to C and V is illegal from elsewhere? This also applies to mapping C and V to X and Z, so that both the X and the V keys produce "X"?

Edit: Yeah, found the feature request. But I also found this reddit post, from a guy who asked peppy about it.

See my edit.
And be wary of the keylock anyway, that obviously wouldn't exist if 4 key gameplay was desired.

why so deep when you can just use every method from time to time from map to map

Kondou-Shinichi wrote:

why so deep when you can just use every method from time to time from map to map

Hm, I agree that using different playstyles for different beatmaps is often a good idea. But if you spread your practice time on several playstyles, your main playstyle won't be as good compared to if you only practiced your main playstyle. If I practice alternating even on low-bpm maps where single-tapping could theoretically give me higher acc, it will also make me better at alternating when I play high-bpm maps where single-tapping doesn't work.

But regardless, is there any beatmap where experts at semi-alternating should consistently outperform experts at full-alternating? If not, then there's no reason to practice both playstyles.

For me, usually i would use semi-alt + singletapping
a perfect example would be my slowmotion ezdt play

in reality, both full and semi alt pretty much doesn’t do a different

semi-alternators are most likely better on high bpm deathstreams on average

Great post! Lately i've been training full-alternating due to I have learned playing and doing triples etc with my middle and index finger. I feel like when I alternate my stream speed is worse than when singletapping because I singletap with wrist so I think it saves stamina for streams. Also Bubbleman full-alternates and he's currently #19

mikkoxd wrote:

Great post! Lately i've been training full-alternating due to I have learned playing and doing triples etc with my middle and index finger. I feel like when I alternate my stream speed is worse than when singletapping because I singletap with wrist so I think it saves stamina for streams. Also Bubbleman full-alternates and he's currently #19

The amazing BUBBLEMAN does?! : O Where did you hear this?

And yeah, that's one reason for single-tapping that deemoplayer47 mentioned earlier. Seems important.

Mio Winter wrote:

The amazing BUBBLEMAN does?! : O Where did you hear this?

And yeah, that's one reason for single-tapping that deemoplayer47 mentioned earlier. Seems important.

Yes he does! Well you can tell he's full-alternating from watching his plays and looking at the key counter.

Yep fast singletap players mostly use wrist / arm to tap, not their fingers. If we look Angelsim for example, he semi-alternates fast maps and I think most players just semi-alternate because they have trained streams / bursts with their main finger and starting them with that finger while alternating feels the most natural.

mikkoxd wrote:

Mio Winter wrote:

The amazing BUBBLEMAN does?! : O Where did you hear this?

And yeah, that's one reason for single-tapping that deemoplayer47 mentioned earlier. Seems important.

Yes he does! Well you can tell he's full-alternating from watching his plays and looking at the key counter.

Seeing that [689] [690] on the key counter is just so satisfying. <3

Endaris wrote:

And properly resetting your finger is something that makes you good, fast and accurate in the long run.

Why is finger resetting good?

If its good because it trains control then I would say that not finger resetting also trains control

I never reset my fingers and so my fingers are always ready to press the keys.

Endaris wrote:

I disagree with this being a straight up advantage.
If you're full-alternating from the first minute of abandoning mouse-only (like me), you're well setup to run straight down into bad habits because you can get away with a much less efficient movement on patterns like that.
If a semi-alternator or singletapper plays XYX XYX XYX he is effectively training his streams and his stamina because the finger the pattern is started with goes at the same speed as an actual stream XYXYXYXYXYX.
If a full-alternating player is doing that, he is not training his streams at all, he is training triples.

This difference results in a significantly better learning curve for single-tappers and semi-alternators regarding stream speed and stamina.

But you just said that XYX makes the pattern harder. How does making patterns harder have anything to do with giving a more advantageous learning curve? You also said it changes the pattern to be more stream like rather than triples but again I don't understand the link here.

If you want harder patterns you are not at a loss for choice as a full alternator, the same goes for high bpm streams. I don't see how the learning curve is affected at all

N0thingSpecial wrote:

a relatable example for me is the piano, you learn scale, 99% of the time your tutor will tell you the order of fingers to tap the corresponding notes, rinse and repeat and you'll develop muscle memory for that. If you are given 3 consecutive sets of scales you wouldn't play the 3 different sets in 3 different tapping order, cause in practical environment you would have to also handle need to handle dynamic, articulation and speed, your coordination can only go so far you wouldn't bother to change tapping order.

The reason you don't learn alternative tapping orders for piano is because there is no advantage to do so. XYX YXY does make the pattern physically easier which is why its worth learning.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

why not alternate between 4 fingers? in piano if you need to play a single note rapidly you actually alternate between 3 fingers, but why 3?

Again piano is different. X and Y are both the same note in osu, you don't have that situation with piano. In osu you could use two fingers for X and two for Y but keyboard keys are smaller than piano keys and so it takes more physical effort to switch fingers on the same key rather than using the same finger.

Endaris wrote:

semi-alternators are most likely better on high bpm deathstreams on average

If there were actual statistics showing this I would believe you

mikkoxd wrote:

Also Bubbleman full-alternates and he's currently #19

Hes also really consistent and cute like doomsbae


Conclusion

I think alternating vs non alternating doesn't matter.

Just like mouse vs tablet.

Its in the acceptable range that our mind and body can adapt to play to suit the peripheral/play style.

Yet each adaption is relatively equivalent.

I am a mouse player AND a full alternator which makes me one of the few chosen 100% L33T players. Bow before my greatness

*bows before your greatness*

Still, mouse vs tablet doesn't matter?! *outraged* Of course it does! But mablet is better than both anyway.

I can't get the hang of anything other than full-alternating. Tend to leave my finger pressed on the key until the next note is played (regardless of whether the last was a slider or circle).

I really don't understand how people do single tap or semi alternating lol. I tried it and can't do it.

Swegmec wrote:

Tend to leave my finger pressed on the key until the next note is played

!!! : O This is what I set out to do the first time I learned full-alt. I want to leave my finger on the key until I have to press the next key, and one of the reasons I want to full-alt is because semi-alternators can't do this. I think it has benefits because it could reduce the complexity of the instructions you send to your fingers, but I haven't explained that in this post because it's really speculative and somewhat difficult to explain (and probably wrong).

Mio Winter wrote:

Still, mouse vs tablet doesn't matter?! *outraged* Of course it does!

The reason why mouse players say they are equal is because there's no point trying to convert tablet players. They are already corrupted

Nah it probably doesn't matter.

Anyone who says that it seriously matters are grasping at straws for improvement or are trying to look talented by saying they are held back by a shitty peripheral.

Mio Winter wrote:

This is what I set out to do the first time I learned full-alt. I want to leave my finger on the key until I have to press the next key, and one of the reasons I want to full-alt is because semi-alternators can't do this. I think it has benefits because it could reduce the complexity of the instructions you send to your fingers, but I haven't explained that in this post because it's really speculative and somewhat difficult to explain (and probably wrong)

Full alt gives you more time to read since low note dense and high note dense sections have the same movement allowing you more time to react. If you have to be in an alternating form and you are currently single tapping you have to minus the time it takes to switch forms to calculate the allowable time to react.

It also reduces mental strain because you don't have to decide on whether to single tap or alternate. You also have to master less forms of motion allowing you to improve quicker.

Full alt is also very relaxing to do once its muscle memory. It also makes low bpm streams a piece of cake (cause high bpm single notes are similar)


I forgot to add your original post is very well formatted and very well written! This is rare on most forums.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

a relatable example for me is the piano

I think a better example is guitar. The consensus in the community is that you should always alternate then adjust from there. Some pieces are easier starting with a up stroke or repeating a down or up stroke in certain parts.

Since I used to play guitar hero alternating seemed like a no brainier but now I'm not so sure.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

I forgot to add your original post is very well formatted and very well written!

*blushes profusely*

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Full alt gives you more time to read since low note dense and high note dense sections have the same movement allowing you more time to react. If you have to be in an alternating form and you are currently single tapping you have to minus the time it takes to switch forms to calculate the allowable time to react.

This is a good point!

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Full alt is also very relaxing to do once its muscle memory. It also makes low bpm streams a piece of cake (cause high bpm single notes are similar)

This is also a good point! Although the benefit also applies to semi-alt, not just full-alt. It's a benefit alternators have over singletappers.

It also depends on what BPM streams you're talking about. I currently struggle especially much with slow quarterbeat streams at about 130 bpm (? I'm not sure what my lower limit is) to 170 bpm (ish), and I'm much more consistent on streams from 171 bpm to 200 bpm (ish). I also really struggle with halfbeat jumps at above 260 bpm.

So in order to practice quarterbeat streaming at 130 bpm to 170 bpm, I would have to be able to alternate halfbeat jumps at 260 bpm to 340 bpm... Which is really amazingly fast from my perspective. It seems unlikely that I'm going to get better at 170 bpm streams by alternating jumps. But it definitely seems like a good argument for learning streams below 150 bpm.

Here's what 316 bpm halfbeat jumps look like:

Mio Winter wrote:

deemoplayer47 wrote:

Stamina should be considered as well. Tapping using the fingers isn't the only way to tap; one can also tap using the wrist or even the forearm.
Wrist tapping or forearm tapping not only gives extra stamina that semi-alternating playstyles need, it's also even more difficult to integrate said tapping techniques into the full-alternating playstyle, specially wrist tapping which seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating (most top players wrist-tap on anything slower than 1/4 or 1/6 beats). Because they compensate for lack of stamina (in semi-alternating), it's almost not worth full-alternating; it's easy to see why the majority of top players semi-alternate.

But what do you mean "wrist tapping seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating"? Both full-alternating and semi-alternating seems to require finger muscles (maybe wrist/forearm muscles as well, depending on how you do it) equally much, except maybe semi-alternating which puts extra stress on one finger. Not sure what you mean.

I'll give an example: instead of (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

X-YXYXY-X-Y-XYXYX-Y

You can use your wrist to save stamina for non-stream parts:

X-XYXYX-X-X-XYXYX-X

More frequent use of any muscle for tapping increases stamina of that muscle, and of course, accuracy specifically when using said muscle. Wrist tappers hit notes more accurately using their wrist. As stamina corresponds to accuracy, it is indeed very important. Theoretically, using the forearm along with the wrist and fingers should yield optimal stamina and accuracy.

But thinking more about it, if semi-alternators can't adapt a full-alternating style, then yes think I get your point.
Given this special case: (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo

Notice how the note sequence is simply a 15-note deathstream broken into threes.
Semi-alternators would tap XYX-XYX-XYX-XYX-XYX (tap X ten times and Y five times), while full-alternators would tap XYX-YXY-XYX-YXY-XYX (tap X eight times and Y seven times); full-alternators would distribute energy usage more evenly between fingers than semi-alternators. I'd rather full-alternate in this case.

There's another special case: (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

oooo-o-o-oooo-o-o

Whether a full-alternator starts with X or Y, he/she will soon find himself/herself wrist-tapping with the finger on Y, which will certainly affect accuracy (not only is it a different finger, the middle finger is also longer than the index and so needs a slightly different position for wrist-tapping). Still, it's better than not using your wrist.

MFull alt is physically less demanding but it is compensated for being mentally more demanding, these two aspect is why we vary in opinion, lets completely ignore the difference between full alt and semi alt, let's say it's XXX XXX vs XYX YXY, IF I have the physical ability to single tap 300bpm death stream XXX XXX would just be easier, and it's easier to develop muscle memory for since you're just moving one set of muscles, hence it will not hinder my aim. IF I'm scientifically proven to be a human metronome with robotic precision control of my tapping, XYX YXY would be easier, and it's easier for me to focus on developing muscle memory for aiming. Both extreme side of the spectrum would eventually produce the same results.

Now let's go back to the practicality of the game, imo this game leans toward the meta of simplifying rhythm choices, and thats my reason for suggesting that it is really no necessary to be so focused on the cognitive side of the game, same reasoning for you suggesting why there's no need to develop muscle memory to play scales in another order. Hence me coming to the conclusion that semi alt is better.

deemoplayer47 wrote:

I'll give an example: instead of (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

X-YXYXY-X-Y-XYXYX-Y

You can use your wrist to save stamina for non-stream parts:

X-XYXYX-X-X-XYXYX-X

Yeah, I got that part from your first post (which is a good point!). You can use your wrist on non-stream parts to save stamina for streamy parts.

What I didn't understand was how "wrist tapping seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating".

Ah, I understand. You assumed that "the need for full-alternating" was because it gives you more stamina because you spread the strain evenly among the two fingers. And you don't need to do that if you just wrist/forearm-tap, because that gives you even more stamina than full-alternating. Point granted.

But the main need for alternating is because it allows you to play high-bpm jumps that you can't singletap. For example, try to singletap this. The reason no one can singletap 316 bpm quarterbeat jumps (the jumps shown in video) is not because they lack stamina, it's because the finger or wrist or forearm can't move that fast (doesn't have the strength, can't break lightspeed, etc.).

deemoplayer47 wrote:

As stamina corresponds to accuracy, it is indeed very important.

Hmm, just to clarify the relationship between acc and stamina a bit. For 95 % of the maps I play (I rarely play stream-heavy maps, but I do play maps with long streams), stamina isn't an issue at all. So increasing my stamina will not affect my accuracy much. Except for when I play the stream-heavy maps. I have OK stamina but my accuracy is shamefully bad. Another person could be really good at accuracy (on non-streamy maps), yet have much lower stamina than me. They would just need sufficient stamina for the non-streamy maps. But yeah, if you don't have sufficient stamina for what you play yet, training stamina may be the most efficient way to get higher acc.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Endaris wrote:

And properly resetting your finger is something that makes you good, fast and accurate in the long run.

Why is finger resetting good?

If its good because it trains control then I would say that not finger resetting also trains control

I never reset my fingers and so my fingers are always ready to press the keys.

With "reset" I mean resetting the key and being ready to hit the key again.
This is directly related to training your speed.

Mio Winter wrote:

Swegmec wrote:

Tend to leave my finger pressed on the key until the next note is played

!!! : O This is what I set out to do the first time I learned full-alt. I want to leave my finger on the key until I have to press the next key, and one of the reasons I want to full-alt is because semi-alternators can't do this. I think it has benefits because it could reduce the complexity of the instructions you send to your fingers, but I haven't explained that in this post because it's really speculative and somewhat difficult to explain (and probably wrong).

This on the other hand does not only not train your speed, it is potentially even harmful because on most maps you aren't pushed for full stamina and as such you may practice a lazy and inefficient movement for the majority of your playtime.
This is the skill you lack when you play maps that actually require that efficiency and speed and this is why I think that full-alternators tend to be weaker when it comes to streams and specifically deathstreams.

I also agree with deemoplayer on stamina being an absolute requirement for accuracy. Just having enough stamina will never be enough to SS a map that poses at least some kind of challenge.
It is only possible to exert full control for the best accuracy when playing maps below your stamina level.

Endaris wrote:

This on the other hand does not only not train your speed, it is potentially even harmful because on most maps you aren't pushed for full stamina and as such you may practice a lazy and inefficient movement for the majority of your playtime.
This is the skill you lack when you play maps that actually require that efficiency and speed and this is why I think that full-alternators tend to be weaker when it comes to streams and specifically deathstreams.

I definitely agree that singletappers get to practice stamina more, because many fast-bpm maps are a strain on the stamina of your tapping hand. Alternators will just breeze through them with no sweat. So I can believe that singletappers have better stamina on average. It's an important argument in support of singletapping.

I don't know how important that practice is, though. I think there's a level at which almost all non-streamy beatmaps become a negligible strain on your stamina, such that no matter whether you singletap or alternate, you won't get stamina practice out of it. So at that level, the only way you can practice stamina is by playing stream-heavy maps, and singletappers and alternators get the same amount of stamina practice out of it. I could be wrong, since I have almost no experience singletapping.

Mio Winter wrote:

It also depends on what BPM streams you're talking about. I currently struggle especially much with slow quarterbeat streams at about 130 bpm (? I'm not sure what my lower limit is) to 170 bpm (ish), and I'm much more consistent on streams from 171 bpm to 200 bpm (ish). I also really struggle with halfbeat jumps at above 260 bpm.

Its probably because most maps that have 260bpm half beat jumps or more are usually technical maps like these
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1041079&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/62905

deemoplayer47 wrote:

Wrist tapping or forearm tapping not only gives extra stamina that semi-alternating playstyles need, it's also even more difficult to integrate said tapping techniques into the full-alternating playstyle, specially wrist tapping which seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating (most top players wrist-tap on anything slower than 1/4 or 1/6 beats). Because they compensate for lack of stamina (in semi-alternating), it's almost not worth full-alternating; it's easy to see why the majority of top players semi-alternate.

Wrist and forearm tapping is not hard to integrate into full alternating. Its less pronounced for full alternating since the opposite finger is moving down as the other is moving up reducing the amount of wrist or forearm movement needed and sharing the load more evenly over the whole arm. This gives full alternators a bit more stamina as the load is less concentrated.

The reason why most people semi alternate is because when you first start playing mental demand takes precedence over physical demand. This leads to most starting with the mentally easier technique and sticking to it due to habit. This doesn't mean that mental demand for semi alternating is always lower, it could be higher or lower depending on the bpm.

Endaris wrote:

The point is that the full-alternator won't learn to properly reset his fingers because he always has enough time to laze.
The main difference between XYX XYX XYX and XYX YXY XYX is that on the former you absolutely need to properly reset your X finger for the next note. And properly resetting your finger is something that makes you good, fast and accurate in the long run.

Resetting your fingers is not necessarily a good habit. I see many single tappers having trouble with technical maps for this reason because they slider break very often due to always wanting to reset. Finger control is not adversely affected by full alternating or by single tapping because both have their downsides for different situations.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

IF I have the physical ability to single tap 300bpm death stream XXX XXX would just be easier

I disagree, drummers when using one hand then two hands to do the same bpm changes the sound of the beat. The single hand beats are more flat while the alternating hits have a deeper sound since the hand has the time to linger rather than pull up immediately. This effect applies to osu as well, fast single tapping is hard to learn since the physical sensations in your hand is less pronounced.

An example of this is trying to tap 180 bpm with 2 or 3 fingers. I find 3 fingers mentally easier even though I have practiced both about the same amount.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

MFull alt is physically less demanding but it is compensated for being mentally more demanding

Don't higher physical demands also increase mental demand? XYX XYX is basically streaming but at a higher bpm missing a note. Streaming at a higher bpm has a higher mental cost. You have to perceive more notes than needed.

eemoplayer47 wrote:

There's another special case: (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

oooo-o-o-oooo-o-o

Whether a full-alternator starts with X or Y, he/she will soon find himself/herself wrist-tapping with the finger on Y, which will certainly affect accuracy (not only is it a different finger, the middle finger is also longer than the index and so needs a slightly different position for wrist-tapping). Still, it's better than not using your wrist.

Yes this pattern requires a slightly different wrist tapping position. This again distributes the physical demand on the hand to increase stamina however this position is similar to the other wrist tapping position so the muscle memory required is similar.

i cant write wall of text
ill just say semi-alt is better for finger control

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

stuff

I think reading your wall of text I need to add a big fat "it depends" statement, cause we're not even fundamentally talking about the same thing lol, I'm talking about the the implication of the meta on the mental and physical aspect, and you're only focusing physical and mental aspect of it