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Let's talk about Loved.

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The current Loved system hav two key issues.

1. Kudosu does not reflect the whole opinion.

It does not make sense to decide to vote with kudosu in the first place.
becuz kudosu can only be gained by person who did modding, so people who just enjoy playing only
cannot exercise much influence.
cuz the 100 kudosu condition is main requirement, this system is their own league; who do mapping or modding.


2. With Kudosu, multiple voting is possible.

Do you think it makes sense that when one chooses a member of the parliament, one person exercises several votes?
This is a serious problem that contradicts the purpose of 'Loved'.



First of all, we need to make sure the concept of 'Loved' clear.

I agree with CXu's opinion to some extent. 'Loved' is a completely different category from 'Rank',It is a map that has been steadily loved by people.
This is a way of gathering a large number of purely subjective opinions rather than objective ones, it has nothing to do with quality and playability,
cuz this is not rank category. that was the first way of Loved.
But before the voting system changed, actually the Loved maps are good in quality and popularity.
The favorite number and quality of the old loved maps and the current red votes disprove it.



By the way, The reason people say when they make a map like 'aim for Rank' or 'aim for Loved',
Becuz Rank and Loved map has promotional effect.

How would ordinary players find maps on OSU homepage?
They will search their favorite songs or look at the front page of the main category. It is typically Loved and Rank.
Most mappers will want to show off their map to others. it is natural,


But as a player,personally I don want to see the maps just made with short term in loved besides, I hate it if it's a map that people do not love.
Anyway to sum up, the way the map is chosen, not the problem of the map itself, is completely wrong.



If you want to continue the current way, Osu hav to make one more category like'Under Rank.'
similiar with Major and Minor league in sports.
Certainly, this does not fit the name 'Loved'.




so, Remedy of present Loved in my opinion,

first, Kudosu must be removed from the map selection criteria to fairly reflect the views of everyone.
and I think it is better to raise the Favorite upper limit to at least 100.

And with this, first questionnaire type is ideal.

Above all, current Loved does not have a manager to supervise the selection of the map unlike the Rank like BN and QAT.
So more than one manager is essential i think.




I hope the current Loved status will be better, and a hidden masterpiece that many people love wil come as legend.

Nonetheless, the current system is so far from being clear about the concept.
vanessahime
w..what...
FlipSide82
idk XD"
Ryzen_old_1

Raveille wrote:

A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.

Another Lie wrote:

ok Raveille triggers me. Sorry for that i already do that for beethoven
[ Ari Knight ]
just my thoughts...

-voting by favorites might be good idea (since if using kudosu that just only who have been modding can do that)
-about SP, 50 is fairly enough
-maybe 100+ fav will take the criteria
-and SV map? playable only plz...

please don't blame me if i got wrong XD
Miutrex
WTF?
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/344371
THIS MAP LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SP, AND IS LOVED !!!
NEVER EXCEEDS THE 100 FAVS
WHAT THE HELL YOU SET RULES IF YOU BREAK THEIRS?
THIS SIMPLY WILL GENERATE MORE CONFUSION THAT THERE IS ALREADY COMPLICATED THAT IS FOR YOUR MAP TO ENTER ANY CATEGORY OF RANKING
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
Pachiru

Miutrex wrote:

WTF?
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/344371
THIS MAP LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SP, AND IS LOVED !!!
NEVER EXCEEDS THE 100 FAVS
WHAT THE HELL YOU SET RULES IF YOU BREAK THEIRS?
THIS SIMPLY WILL GENERATE MORE CONFUSION THAT THERE IS ALREADY COMPLICATED THAT IS FOR YOUR MAP TO ENTER ANY CATEGORY OF RANKING
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
Don't caps. Moreover, look at the time it got Loved, during the old system, that's why it got ranked. Now stop yelling please.
7ambda

Miutrex wrote:

I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
You're right, you don't.
CircusGalop
How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?

Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties

WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.


Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
Mipha-

CircusGalop wrote:

How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?

Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties

WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.


Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
I could agree with this, since user rating system hasn't been in its upmost uses after all, but there's only one thing.

Since what I see is that the user rating system is highly subjective, the beatmapper and the players can easily give 10/10 on each of the said category map. Which is pretty unfortunate, that rating system won't give out their honest rating as you might think it is - since it is easily dominated by the propaganda of the given map..... and that could be very risky.

Also agreed to the previous suggestions which are to limit giving SP, because it's already done by someone to purposely making the map "Loved" without any given lookout and further ignored mods. Shooting your hard-earned 100 stars right off the bat is just straight up dumb, I hate to say that. Keeping high favourites are great as well.
CircusGalop
I realized that the additional conditions are needed like this.
Required raters : at least 100
How long keep those conditions : at least 2 weeks after last update

I thought as follows.
If many raters vote, manipulation of average User Rating will be difficult.
The number of favorites is dominated by popularity, but it does not reflect how many people are dissatisfied with this map.
If the average rating is not enough to make something a loved map, the mapper can try to improve rating by changing to WIP and improving the map.

Of course, user ratings might not reflect the map quality. But, this allows us to filter out the maps which a lot of people don't like and to give feedback to the mapper in a different way. I would like to hear more opinions about this.
h3oCharles
Akali's (submitted by Sugoi-_-Desu) Knife Party - Centipede is the perfect example against this
DDMythical
Every map that meets their respective gamemodes' kudosu/favourite mark should be put into a pool. Then the community votes on X (10%) of these maps to be loved every month or so. The maps that don't make it have to get 30% higher kudosu/favourites to be able to enter the pool next month.

For hybrid sets; just account the most popular gamemode. For example if a set has 4 mania diffs and 1 standard diff. it will require the standard's limit of kudosu/favourites.

This stops people from putting 100 kds and getting randoms to favourite their map and then getting it loved no questions asked. The community then has to agree that the map is good. the 30% increase each time (100, 130, 169) will stop mappers from repeatedly putting a mapset into the pool when nobody wants leaderboards on it.

however long this mapset has been around for is irrelevant.
Reazen
I think "loved" is not the place where you should add maps regularly. Maps that community truly love is not something that you can add every month by votes I think.. It's just a popularity contest, who made more interesting map with unranked patterns, weird spacing etc. Loved should be something more "holy" (?)
Maps that had great impact on community over YEARS, not week/month. Maps like that old nightcore jump practice that everyone played, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/48738 (oh man this is genius). You can actually see though download count (not in every case but still) in current loved section what is truly loved, everything below 100k should be just removed. I think there should be at least 1-2 year in graveyard/pending to qualify for loved.. It doesn't matter if map gets attention for month or two, if it's forgotten over year it just means it doesn't really have to be in loved. And why loved should be something that is not flexible. What about some voting what should not be in loved? It's not like players lose pp from removing maps. Who needs many maps in loved anyway, true "loved" map is not something that appears every day/week. To sum up, there should be at least two ways to get loved. Using community votes for really old maps and download count for new ones.
Pachiru

Reazen wrote:

everything below 100k should be just removed.
a lot of people don't play loved map cause it doesn't give pp and that's why there is not much maps that got 100k plays .
also because a lot of maps have high SR so not everyone can play it
CheezyDawg
end loved plz i need more pp
Reazen

Pachiru wrote:

Reazen wrote:

everything below 100k should be just removed.
a lot of people don't play loved map cause it doesn't give pp and that's why there is not much maps that got 100k plays .
also because a lot of maps have high SR so not everyone can play it
Then how these high SR maps still have more dl count ?? That's what loved is about ppl plays these maps even if it does not give them pp.
Cherry Blossom
Yo !
I didn't really read each post of this thread, and i think i'm not the only person who asked for this.
Is/will it be possible to have a mapset which is going for Ranked section, but in this mapset there's only a diff which goes for Loved section, because the diff itself is technically unrankable ? (all tag4 maps that were ranked before are now in Loved section, but the other diffs are in Ranked section)

I can give you an example if you don't see what i mean.
"I'm planning to make a full mapset on a song in standard mode, and i want to add a TAG4 diff but not as external diff. It is part of the mapset but the scores on it don't give pp, so it is for loved section"
Drum-Hitnormal
Is loved status supposed to be way harder than ranked?

Getting 100 favorites on a 7K map seems very hard when about 90% of players only play 4K.

Why have the same requirement for all modes when the size of player base is drastically different.

The requirement for favorite should be x% of total player base for that key mode.
Example: There are 100,000 players for 4K, set requirement to 0.1% you need 100 favorites.
There are 10,000 players for 7K, you need 10 favorites.
There are 10 million players for STD, you need 10 000 favorites.

Where as the requirement for kudosu would be based on active modders.
Example: There are 10000 mappers for 4K, set requirement to 10% = 100 kudosu.

Favorite is more of a limited resource than kudosu since you are capped at 50 per account and you get banned for multi accounts. Considering this, the requirement for favorite should be lower than kudosu requirement.

Only map that break ranking rules can be loved is a fair requirement.

I think the intention of having "Loved" is just a backdoor for pending maps to get attention, not actually meant to represent what the community loves, is that right?

There would be no need for loved if the ranking system was only based on # of mod + # of plays
blobdash
Loved section should stay with the same requirements (100 kudos, 15 favs (or maybe more favs idk)) but let the community vote. As DDMythical said, there should be a pool of selected maps with 2 or 3 maps in the end.

Play count/Download should not be involved. Unknown mappers (mappers that never ranked anything like me/non famous mappers) will get less downloads and plays because the players won't be following the mapper's new maps, so it's a bad idea to involve these stats in loved.
Pachiru

FruityEnLoops wrote:

Loved section should stay with the same requirements (100 kudos, 15 favs (or maybe more favs idk)) but let the community vote. As DDMythical said, there should be a pool of selected maps with 2 or 3 maps in the end.

Play count/Download should not be involved. Unknown mappers (mappers that never ranked anything like me/non famous mappers) will get less downloads and plays because the players won't be following the mapper's new maps, so it's a bad idea to involve these stats in loved.
I agree with that idea.
Wutever

CircusGalop wrote:

How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?

Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties

WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.


Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
i think its absurd how were talking about a category centered around literally unranked popularity ( lets be honest thats what loved means. high critical acclaim.....but mostly popularity thats unranked ) and no one before this guy mentioned user rating where you LITERALLY RATE THE MAP as having any relevance towards anything. this thread is just people projecting their opinions of either i want the kudoso power or how no one should have the kudoso power. i think a combination of favorites and user rating with a small amount of influence. ( key word SMALL ) being given towards the kudoso thing is probably a alright system. i mean factoring in user rating to some degree doesnt seem like a bad idea, though we'd never see something like ikenai borderline get loved again it might also stifle out the completely generic shit or all the jump spam that half the community actually active in this game hates.

the way i see it theres no way in hell were gonna get a "loved" system that pleases everyone. but is it even supposed to? i thought it was for unranked maps that have enough reception and popularity around them to warrant a leader board. its not the systems fault in that case if most of the community just has shitty taste

also +1 to loved maps being maps that are at least 6months-1 year old.
PotatoJet
How about switch it up? 100 favs and 30 sp? Instead of 100 sp and 30 favs.
Stefan

PotatoJet wrote:

How about switch it up? 100 favs and 30 sp? Instead of 100 sp and 30 favs.
I actually suggested both options since 100favs+30sp is primaly for the actual famous maps that are truly loved, while 100sp+30favs are for the mapper who urgently want their map to have a leaderboard. *shrugs*
tatatat
Of course my opinion on this is highly biased, but I think the requirements were fine how they were. Quite a few people including me have already accumulated 100SP on their maps and met the criteria. To reduce the kudosu requirement is to make all that effort a waste. Loved should be an alternative to the ranking criteria, or it should be split into another category. One for maps truly loved by the community, and another category for those who put the time and effort into getting the kudosu and favorites.
Ochasan
hmm... still looking for a way out of this all
i'm here to summarize what I've read (some posts I forget omg: o)
forgive me for my rough language in English :(

  1. Loved Beatmap is a beatmap beloved by people, chosen for its own reasons (forgot) by everyone.
  2. Loved Beatmap is treated as a side-ranking category, when for various reasons perfectly rankable maps go for loved instead.
  3. Loved Beatmap shouldn't just be an alternative Ranked status. Loved isn't supposed to be a mapping goal, it should just be a place for (unrankable) maps loved by the community to get a scoreboard. That is more like the mapper being narcissistic towards their own map.
  4. Loved Beatmap (still edit and find some argument to solve)
faygo

tatatat wrote:

Of course my opinion on this is highly biased, but I think the requirements were fine how they were. Quite a few people including me have already accumulated 100SP on their maps and met the criteria. To reduce the kudosu requirement is to make all that effort a waste. Loved should be an alternative to the ranking criteria, or it should be split into another category. One for maps truly loved by the community, and another category for those who put the time and effort into getting the kudosu and favorites.
while i do not agree that "making all the effort a waste" is a valid argument to keep this current loved system, I think to tackle your problem a solution is that only mapsets which are uploaded after the new loved system took place will need to adhere to the loved requirements. this is similar to how updating the ranking criteria works if im correct
___________________________
my opinion:

+ i think 100fav 30SP would be better cuz at last the osu player community is the dominant one, meaning having SR > fav doesn really reflect the fact that a map is widely loved (+ the fact that 90% players are not mappers nor modders, and therefore probably dont have kudosu to shoot at any maps)

and i think there should be a limit for the amount of stars one can shoot (sorry if its already mentioned i only skimmed over the 10 pages very briefly, like 5 stars per person, this is simply to prevent abuse of this 100fav 30sp requirement
tusoniccc
Thanks you Osu! for update <3
CXu

tatatat wrote:

Of course my opinion on this is highly biased, but I think the requirements were fine how they were. Quite a few people including me have already accumulated 100SP on their maps and met the criteria. To reduce the kudosu requirement is to make all that effort a waste. Loved should be an alternative to the ranking criteria, or it should be split into another category. One for maps truly loved by the community, and another category for those who put the time and effort into getting the kudosu and favorites.
There is an alternative to ranked already; it's called ranked.

If there are no differences between a map in loved and a map in ranked (except for the potentially lower quality due to foregoing the modding process), then there is no reason to have a loved category in the first place, as those maps could just be ranked instead.

If a map can reasonably be changed to fit the ranking criteria, such as mapping additional difficulties, increase the quality of the map etc. it is fit to be ranked, and should not be considered to be loved.

Only maps that for some reason can't be ranked (such as the creator having left the community, or the map is designed around some unrankable concept), where changing it would break the map, should be considered for Loved, and only if said maps are indeed, community loved (how this is indicated can probably be discussed more, I just dislike the notion that "loved is an alternative to ranked". It's not, according to the description, and it shouldn't be.)
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
Okay, just to tidy this up so as not to mislead people with things - this hasn't been discussed too much internally lately since moddingv2 has not progressed as far.

I believe we're slated to talk about Loved in the upcoming Coffee Hour, so hopefully I can provide some perspective and rationale on the issue in that. It is my hope that we'll sort something out to get Loved back into active duty relatively soon, though. Probably the biggest thing to iron out is the mix of expectations between what Loved should encompass or not.
Wutever
well heres hoping activity resumes. my interpretation of loved as always been the name itself. maps that are unranked for whatever reason that the community loves.

thats exactly what it should be and if the maps are shitty then again i reiterate what i said earlier. its not the systems fault if the community has shitty taste.
The_CJ
Is there now a way to submit maps for Loved that i can't find or is it still in discussion what is needed to get loved?
-Aerith-
100 kds is to much lol . Maybe lowering it to 50 should be enough . And for fav is 100

Right . Simple as that XD
Caput Mortuum
no it's not as simple as that.
Envory
i though playing loved map will earn bigger PP cause loved ap are for ET player /something like that
or maybe the BN cant play them XD.
Too much star priority for being loved..
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
To keep people up to date on this, a new voting round based on top-player/prominent player picks has gone out, in line with what was discussed during Coffee Hour.

I'm not yet sure if this is something that will be repeated. Hopefully it will, but I'm fairly set on not being the person behind compiling those lists again after the debacle of the first four votes, and I'd much rather delegate it to engaged players/modders/mappers who have a much wider scope for this sort of stuff than I do.

I can see some form of community voting continue for the near future, though.

That being said, is this the best compromise to have for Loved? A monthly intake purely decided from community vote?
Backfire
I think everyone would prefer something more frequently, once a month is really painfully slow.
Arzenvald
why only osu!taiko that has 3 compiler? it seems to be better approach to collect maps for vote than other modes imo

Backfire wrote:

I think everyone would prefer something more frequently, once a month is really painfully slow.
and yeah, weekly or biweekly votes sounds cool imo
Backfire
Bi-Weekly was my idea too, the only problem is people/staff will argue we will run out of maps too quickly or something. Maybe every 3 weeks is more realistic instead, but really I think the threshold thing isn't really necessary either. I think top 5 or something thins out the proper maps better, I think letting stuff over 6% ends up making it so that us voting for it is totally redundant. Put some kind of pressure on the community imo, that's what makes it interesting.
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
The issue with doing this more frequently is having people willing to compile the sets that quickly, mostly.
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