D(ABE3) - MANIERA [Taiko] · forum

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-05-30T10:07:33+00:00

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Last edited by _yu68 2017-09-24T08:28:10+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

Skylish

1,069 posts

Joined June 2013

Skylish 2017-05-30T10:35:24+00:00

I am sorry to veto again, about your mod reply as there's contradiction in your mapping concept overall speaking:

1. The mis-matching 1/8 douplets

> Yes I acknowledge the existence of 1/8 douplets after 00:35:522 - , but they are barely noticable during gameplay from my perspective.

! However, as you are going to COMPLETELY follow the piano, as you stated in the mod reply, why don't you keep the this intention in these mis-matching 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - ? Having these douplets starting from yellow tick is NOT weird as the music goes in this way. If you alter the rhythm/ go against the music, then that'd be really WEIRD.

Yeah, I guess you are going to keep your intention about the positions, but let's talk about some musical theory:

Those ( 00:34:512 - / 00:34:657 - / 00:34:801 - /etc. ) concrete melodies have accompaniments right before 1/8 beat. In general music, accompaniments are ALWAYS played BEFORE the MAIN MELODY. Maniera is the case I mentioned. Leaving melody notes as ending does make sense, in terms of musical theory and game-play effect in osu!taiko as well.

You may question: Players may feel uncomfortable about the rhythm there! I am sorry to say that, yes, and this is how the music goes itself.

2. Finishers usage according to your mapping concept

Alright you seemed reject using Finishers to replace the 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - . On another side you said you want to follow the piano very concretely. I suppose that you are talking about the WHOLE PIANO, but not some parts of it. Piano contains PEDALS and CHORDS , both are used for strengthening the dynamic. How about Finishers usage in Taiko? Strengthening the dynamic!

The timings I mentioned have very clear and strong piano chords with pedals on. If you are going to follow the piano NOTES, which also includes CHORDS, please consider again.

Hanjamon

1,461 posts

Joined June 2012

Hanjamon 2017-05-30T11:15:26+00:00

Well, i think it's normal that the mapper wants to keep these 1/8 to "fit" the piano, in my case, probably they aren't very confortable to play, but tell me, how many rankeds maps has a spam of 1/8 doublets? we don't usually play these kind of maps, and as tasuke said previously, people seems to like the map (even if some people like it for the pp), mapping isn't just adding notes and that's it, sometimes you can be creative as long as it fits with the song.

In conclusion, at least for me, i would keep these 1/8.

Arrival

1,418 posts

Joined June 2012

Arrival 2017-05-30T11:45:00+00:00

To Skylish mod :

Finishers with 1/8 are an absolute no go, as it has been tested already during Raiden's bubble pop and playing / looking awfully. And when he says "piano" OF COURSE he is talking about the chords XD.

In this map yu wants to bring the 1/8 concept to the players and using MANIERA has a support for this concept. He is more mapping a difficulty than the song, otherwise we would have 1/32th or 1/16th....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The map is fun to play for an experienced player and to watch, and the 1/8 are matching pretty well as a good middle ground between PLAYABLITY AND MUSICAL FITTING.

People are crying over it and looking to change it just because the SR is 7.8... And as we say SR shouldn't be taken into account when it comes to qualifying a map.

My 2 cents.

Last edited by Arrival 2017-05-30T12:34:57+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-05-30T11:49:55+00:00

Skylish wrote:
I am sorry to veto again, about your mod reply as there's contradiction in your mapping concept overall speaking:

1. The mis-matching 1/8 douplets

> Yes I acknowledge the existence of 1/8 douplets after 00:35:522 - , but they are barely noticable during gameplay from my perspective.

! However, as you are going to COMPLETELY follow the piano, as you stated in the mod reply, why don't you keep the this intention in these mis-matching 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - ? Having these douplets starting from yellow tick is NOT weird as the music goes in this way. If you alter the rhythm/ go against the music, then that'd be really WEIRD.
Nope, I insisted that "I am taking a policy to match the atmosphere of piano rather than matching it completely with the sound of the piano". (Perhaps this is misunderstood because my English is not fluent.)

Yeah, I guess you are going to keep your intention about the positions, but let's talk about some musical theory:

Those ( 00:34:512 - / 00:34:657 - / 00:34:801 - /etc. ) concrete melodies have accompaniments right before 1/8 beat. In general music, accompaniments are ALWAYS played BEFORE the MAIN MELODY. Maniera is the case I mentioned. Leaving melody notes as ending does make sense, in terms of musical theory and game-play effect in osu!taiko as well.
I can't agree in terms of game-play. In a dense snap like 1/8, I think that the player will feel rhythm at the start point rather than not the end point of the patterns. It may not be so in a map which 1/8 is mainly used. At least in this map, many players will feel the rhythm at start points of 1/8s.

You may question: Players may feel uncomfortable about the rhythm there! I am sorry to say that, yes, and this is how the music goes itself.
Taiko is a game. Rather than following music theory, map should be considered for players.

2. Finishers usage according to your mapping concept

Alright you seemed reject using Finishers to replace the 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - . On another side you said you want to follow the piano very concretely. I suppose that you are talking about the WHOLE PIANO, but not some parts of it. Piano contains PEDALS and CHORDS , both are used for strengthening the dynamic. How about Finishers usage in Taiko? Strengthening the dynamic!
In the same way, I keep it to match the atmosphere of piano, and in order to be comfortable the game-play.

The timings I mentioned have very clear and strong piano chords with pedals on. If you are going to follow the piano NOTES, which also includes CHORDS, please consider again.

qoot8123

1,500 posts

Joined March 2011

qoot8123 2017-05-30T12:03:57+00:00

Hello!
I have some Timing/Patterns suggestions about Virtuoso :

From 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - I found that you use d to represent lowering beat, but look back to 00:50:522 - ~00:59:753 - you make a 1/1 rest moment to emphasize the piano on 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - only 00:56:435 (518) - is different (consider the piano sound is sort of different between 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - and 00:56:435 (518) - ,so I think it is reasonable). Then, start from 00:57:445 - , the note density is increased ,you also emphasize piano pretty well on 00:58:527 (532,533,534) - by using different snap. but on 00:59:753 (542,543,544,545) - it not only conflict the your mapping idea in former part, but also on 01:00:474 (546,547,548,549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559,560,561,562,563) - which mainly use 1/3 to follow piano . So I suggest you try to follow piano on 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - would be more consistent with former part and represent piano more clear. there is a reference.

And about the timing signature(metronome) on 01:02:060 - ~01:07:252 - I feel this part's metronome is 3/4 , it not only match the timing you originally set in 01:05:522 - but also fit the former part's beat.

That's what I concerned, good luck for your beatmap

Skylish

1,069 posts

Joined June 2013

Skylish 2017-05-30T12:40:00+00:00

Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-05-30T13:01:49+00:00

qoot8123 wrote:
Hello!
I have some Timing/Patterns suggestions about Virtuoso :

From 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - I found that you use d to represent lowering beat, but look back to 00:50:522 - ~00:59:753 - you make a 1/1 rest moment to emphasize the piano on 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - only 00:56:435 (518) - is different (consider the piano sound is sort of different between 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - and 00:56:435 (518) - ,so I think it is reasonable). Then, start from 00:57:445 - , the note density is increased ,you also emphasize piano pretty well on 00:58:527 (532,533,534) - by using different snap. but on 00:59:753 (542,543,544,545) - it not only conflict the your mapping idea in former part, but also on 01:00:474 (546,547,548,549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559,560,561,562,563) - which mainly use 1/3 to follow piano . So I suggest you try to follow piano on 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - would be more consistent with former part and represent piano more clear. there is a reference.
I almost changed but I putted d at 00:59:897 - because I want to emphasize base sound at here. I also think it will make the natural flow to the next 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/6 stream.

And about the timing signature(metronome) on 01:02:060 - ~01:07:252 - I feel this part's metronome is 3/4 , it not only match the timing you originally set in 01:05:522 - but also fit the former part's beat. fixed the timing point

That's what I concerned, good luck for your beatmap

Thanks!

Felt7z

25 posts

Joined March 2016

Felt7z 2017-05-30T14:22:58+00:00

Good morning, yu.

[Virtuoso]
気になった点があったのでちょっと文句言いに来ました！ｗ

00:28:479 -
00:30:786 -
00:31:940 -
00:34:248 -
この4箇所に1/8として音符が置かれていない(過去のmodで削除された？)理由が分かりません。
ピアノ音に合わせるために1/8を使うなら、その方針で統一するためにこの4箇所にも音符を追加する必要があるはずです。逆にこれを追加しなければ正しく音取りをしているとは言えず、1/8を含んだ配置の正当性を主張する上での根拠に欠けると思います。

あと個人的な好みなんですが、もし1/8を新たに追加した場合は、音階の関係で 00:31:916 のとこはdd、00:31:916 (285) のとこはkkのほうが音に合っているような気がします。

議論ややこしくしてすみませんが時間があるとき適当にお返事ください

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-05-30T14:49:20+00:00

Felt7z wrote:
Good morning, yu.

[Virtuoso]
気になった点があったのでちょっと文句言いに来ました！ｗ

00:28:479 -
00:30:786 -
00:31:940 -
00:34:248 -
この4箇所に1/8として音符が置かれていない(過去のmodで削除された？)理由が分かりません。
ピアノ音に合わせるために1/8を使うなら、その方針で統一するためにこの4箇所にも音符を追加する必要があるはずです。逆にこれを追加しなければ正しく音取りをしているとは言えず、1/8を含んだ配置の正当性を主張する上での根拠に欠けると思います。
上記2つに関して、 00:28:310 - 00:30:618 - この2音のそれぞれの主張が強く、その直後にあるピアノの音の雰囲気は打ち消されているように感じます。好みの問題かもしれませんが、ここは1/8を置かない方が自然に感じました。
残りの2つに関して、こちらは確かに1/8が適するような雰囲気を感じますが 00:32:060 - 00:34:368 - この2つをそれぞれ強調する意図も兼ねて小節線の場所から1/8を開始しています。別のmodderに再度指摘されたら変更するかもしれません。

あと個人的な好みなんですが、もし1/8を新たに追加した場合は、音階の関係で 00:31:916 のとこはdd、00:31:916 (285) のとこはkkのほうが音に合っているような気がします。

議論ややこしくしてすみませんが時間があるとき適当にお返事ください

ありがとうございました。

ManP

221 posts

Joined October 2014

ManP 2017-05-31T11:28:59+00:00

collapsed text

Hi! A ~~masturbation~~ opinion as one of nerd player of taiko is here.

I know too many Taiko wise men have talked about Virtuoso difficulty and viewed this forum and I got numbed.
I've excepted this map would be a dawn of new Taiko mapping history.
Quantity of favorites says how this map is expected,I think.

Objectively speaking, this difficulty is fine, several BNs said so and I agree it.
And I'm sorry,let me talk more.

I guess no rule about 1/8s can disturb the way of rank.
Regarding to 1/8 double notes.,they are ACTUALLY and CERTAINLY placed to the music(or rather piano)
This part requires only the skill;beating big notes with 200BPM.
Who the hell criticizes if this has a lot of big note?
And this map also does not have fatal technical problem in any other sections.
Broadly speaking,any sections in this map would NOT spoil playability or something like it.

Now is the time to let MANIERA revert to typical ranking process!

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります
[Virtuoso]

00:33:070 (300,301) - dd? 音程的になんかそんな気がしたんですけど、僕の気のせいかもしれません
00:35:666 (331,332) - 00:36:243 (339,340) - dd? 音程もなんですけど、なんだか同じ配置が続いて冗長な感じがしたので小節単位でバリエーション付けたいなと思いました

[Mrriichi's Inner Oni]

01:16:122 (107) - 01:17:276 (119) - これら削除して、直後のノーツを1/4文後ろにずらすのどうですか？
なんかメリハリついてて僕は好きです。どういうことかというとこういうことです。

[Muzukashi]

00:36:820 (1,1) - 00:37:397 (1,1) - これ全部1/2ひとつ分右にずらしたい？(ddkdd k ddk ddk k ...)かなってなりました
強めの音のKが強調されて僕は好きです！

200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった！ :3

Good luck you guys

Last edited by ManP 2017-05-31T17:47:26+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-05-31T11:44:33+00:00

ManP wrote:
collapsed text
Hi! A ~~masturbation~~ opinion as one of nerd player of taiko is here.

I know too many Taiko wise men have talked about Virtuoso difficulty and viewed this forum and I got numbed.
I've excepted this map would be a dawn of new Taiko mapping history.
Quantity of favorites says how this map is expected,I think.

Objectively speaking, this difficulty is fine, several BNs said so and I agree it.
And I'm sorry,let me talk more.

I guess no rule about 1/8s can disturb the way of rank.
Regarding to 1/8 double notes.,they are ACTUALLY and CERTAINLY placed to the music(or rather piano)
This part requires only the skill;beating big notes with 200BPM.
Who the hell criticizes if this has a lot of big note?
And this map also does not have fatal technical problem in any other sections.
Broadly speaking,no section in this map would NOT spoil playability or something like it.

Now is the time to let MANIERA revert to typical ranking process!

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります
[Virtuoso]
00:33:070 (300,301) - dd? 音程的になんかそんな気がしたんですけど、僕の気のせいかもしれません直後の1/4 ddkdkへ移行しやすいようにする意図で、この部分においては音程よりも直後のパターンと対の配色をとることを優先したいです。
00:35:666 (331,332) - 00:36:243 (339,340) - dd? 音程もなんですけど、なんだか同じ配置が続いて冗長な感じがしたので小節単位でバリエーション付けたいなと思いました前者のみを適用しました。後者に関しては、前者を適用することで譜面の変化と音程の表現は十分だと判断したため、配色が片方に偏りすぎることを避ける意図でkkとします。

[Muzukashi]
00:36:820 (1,1) - 00:37:397 (1,1) - これ全部1/2ひとつ分右にずらしたい？(ddkdd k ddk ddk k ...)かなってなりました
強めの音のKが強調されて僕は好きです！ good, changed
200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった！ :3

Good luck you guys

ありがとうございました :3

iloveyou4ever

825 posts

Joined September 2014

iloveyou4ever 2017-05-31T12:11:29+00:00

Hi,some suggestion about the map NO KUDOS
[Virtuoso]
>00:28:455 - change to d?
>Because the piano pitch here drops,and it can reflect the piano pitch change here
>00:30:618 - again change to d?
>same reason
>00:32:782 - change like this? https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8225250
>00:32:782 (296,297,298,299) - it's like these four timestamps have similar piano pitch,and the pitch drops at 00:33:070 - ,so I think using kk kk
here can present the music in a better way.
>01:11:795 - remove this
>I think the new music part starts from 01:11:867 - ,and I think remove 01:11:795 - can let the ''connection'' become better,and also easy to distinguish the new music part.It can emphasize the piano sound at 01:11:867 - as the first beat too
>01:51:750 - change to k
>the piano pitch of ''high-high-low''(kkdkkdkkd...)continue at this point,so I think changing to k can keep the music consistency as well fitting the music more.

[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.

That's it
Good Luck >w<

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-05-31T14:01:34+00:00

iloveyou4ever wrote:
Hi,some suggestion about the map NO KUDOS
[Virtuoso]
>00:28:455 - change to d?
>Because the piano pitch here drops,and it can reflect the piano pitch change here I want to focus the difference between 00:28:455 - and 00:28:599 - .
>00:30:618 - again change to d?
>same reason same
>00:32:782 - change like this? https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8225250
>00:32:782 (296,297,298,299) - it's like these four timestamps have similar piano pitch,and the pitch drops at 00:33:070 - ,so I think using kk kk
here can present the music in a better way. Similarly, I'm focusing the difference between 00:33:070 - and 00:33:214 - .
>01:11:795 - remove this
>I think the new music part starts from 01:11:867 - ,and I think remove 01:11:795 - can let the ''connection'' become better,and also easy to distinguish the new music part.It can emphasize the piano sound at 01:11:867 - as the first beat too changed
>01:51:750 - change to k
>the piano pitch of ''high-high-low''(kkdkkdkkd...)continue at this point,so I think changing to k can keep the music consistency as well fitting the music more. changed

Thanks!

mangomizer

120 posts

Joined September 2012

mangomizer 2017-05-31T20:38:42+00:00

Nofool wrote:
I think a BN rule says "Being able to reasonably play a beatmap is a core part of being able to judge a beatmap's quality", looking at your profile you should probably avoid the Virtuoso difficulty for now

smh Nofool, if only you knew that Skylish is armed with a BFKB meaning he is now 10x stronger than Cookiezi.

In all seriousness, I think you are underestimating the ability for people to judge maps. You don't have to necessarily be "good" to judge whether something is appropriate or not. Sure, being able to play a map helps with insight, but when it comes to things like timings and snappings, anyone with experience is qualified to give a worthwhile opinion. For example, did you know the person who mapped Uta (std) only has 3600pp?

Maya Tendo

196 posts

Joined February 2015

Maya Tendo 2017-06-02T11:06:29+00:00

ManP wrote:
そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります

[Mrriichi's Inner Oni]
01:16:122 (107) - 01:17:276 (119) - これら削除して、直後のノーツを1/4文後ろにずらすのどうですか？
なんかメリハリついてて僕は好きです。どういうことかというとこういうことです。

単体で見れば悪くないですが前後に偶数連打の1/4がないため統一性の観点からなしで

200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった！ :3

Good luck you guys

まんぴと太鼓の歴史の新しい夜明けを作ろう！

No change

k3v227

80 posts

Joined September 2015

k3v227 2017-06-03T19:59:05+00:00

...zzz

[ Eon Fox ]

302 posts

Joined September 2014

[ Eon Fox ] 2017-06-04T15:51:00+00:00

Skylish wrote:
Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.

I think something needs to be said on this point, because this issue is really being danced around.

No matter who is looking at Virtuoso, the objections almost always are concerning the 1/8 doublets. There's one problem, however. Whenever I see BNs and QATs trying to justify their raised concerns, it seems like a lot of the time that the only real argument that is being pushed is simply that 1/8 doublets aren't common in Taiko.

That doesn't feel like an actually rational and/or valid reasoning, because not terribly long ago, 1/4 and 1/6 being in the same stream was viewed as verboten. True, Taiko is a mode that doesn't need excessive evolution, but this isn't something new or even that extreme, since both RoR's and FoTS' Tatsujins use it (the latter VERY questionably).

Now, I have taken the liberty of looking at a direct MIDI version of Maniera, and to be frankly honest, it's actually 1/8 triplets being played on the piano, and they are most certainly not grace notes, as they are actually supposed to be... *drumroll*... a 1/8 triplet followed by 1/8 duplets (as _yu had correctly done at the measures 27 and 28) and, shortly afterward, a long stream of 1/8 triplets that is followed by 1/8 duplets. Seeing as how 1/8 duplets rustled some jimmies already, I can't imagine you'd want to have 1/8 triplets.

Now, you might be wondering just how I know this is 1/8 and not 1/6. Simply put, it wouldn't snap correctly to the notes at 1/6. The patterns for both I can give full detail of B:S:T and note plus octaves upon request. It appears that yu actually went for the simplified route and left out the highest note for each. So if anyone still wants to stand by the notion that _yu's decision to map the 1/8 triples is in question regarding its validity, I will be more than happy to thoroughly ream your argument apart by providing extensive evidence that is in _yu's favour.

EDIT: Pics of MIDI, at the request of Chromoxx.

Pattern I:

Pattern II:

Last edited by [ Eon Fox ] 2017-06-04T16:03:53+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

ManP

221 posts

Joined October 2014

ManP 2017-06-04T15:54:50+00:00

k3v227 wrote:
...zzz

...zzz

Yuzeyun

7,622 posts

Joined September 2010

Yuzeyun 2017-06-05T00:04:53+00:00

you tryna tell me there's 64th triples
then yeah

BUT 96TH or 64th triplets for the music nerds
I CANNOT BELIEVE IT

Even though by waveform analysis and close listening using AV i came to the same conclusion for 64th triples, 32nd doubles should be the way to go.
your maniera is slower tho it says 120 bpm :thinikng:

[ Eon Fox ]

302 posts

Joined September 2014

[ Eon Fox ] 2017-06-05T00:27:15+00:00

Unmei Muma wrote:
you tryna tell me there's 64th triples
then yeah

BUT 96TH or 64th triplets for the music nerds
I CANNOT BELIEVE IT

Even though by waveform analysis and close listening using AV i came to the same conclusion for 64th triples, 32nd doubles should be the way to go.
your maniera is slower tho it says 120 bpm :thinikng:

Osu's terms are based on 1:4 ratio for the purpose of simplification. This is shown by the fact that 4/4 time a tempi is listed as 1/4 in osu, since ♩♩♩♩ makes a whole beat in 4/4 (four crochet to a bar), but due to the fact that 4/4 is almost invariably used in osu for the sake of simplicity as it is the most common time signature, a beat is ♩, and thus the snap is to countable beats instead of to time signature (the opposite of the norm).

However, since FL studio works in beats instead of the traditional notes, just like osu, we can come to an informed conclusion about what the notes are. In order to move newly created beats to the specific area in the piano roll that is present in the screenshots, I actually had to turn off snap to 1/6 beats. If you look carefully, you'll see I was viewing it in 1/12, where 1.5 of the minimum snapped beat length (1/12) was the snap of the triplets (Id est, 1/8).

However, since 1/8 triplets are a little too much, 1/8 duplets would be the correct course of action. However, what is to be noted is that the version _yu had prior was correct in how it should be mapped. Therefore, the 8.02* version he had should be the one used, not the 7.82* version that omits these clearly audible details.

Also, I would like to note that the default of FL studio is 120BPM. It does not update to the accurate BPM until playback, and even then, only when it reaches the point at which a BPM change occurs. Since I was viewing the piano roll with playback stopped, it showed the 120 figure.

m421

102 posts

Joined June 2014

m421 2017-06-06T17:00:44+00:00

iloveyou4ever wrote:
[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.

Thanks for mod.

MOD返信ついでに、Virtuosoに対する私の所感を書いておきます。
1/8の2連打に焦点が当てられて議論をされているようなので、私もその点について書きます。

Following the reply, I'll write my feelings for "Virtuoso".
I can't write long complex sentences with my English so I'll write in Japanese. Sorry.
Please translate with excellent Google translate.

まず、Virtuosoの全体の構成について。
言うまでも無く、この譜面はピアノに重きを置いて音取りがされており、ドラムの打楽器的なリズムを取り入れることでより演奏感を得た譜面になっています。
また、サビでは同じメロディを刻みながらも違ったリズムを刻める、この曲だからこそ出来る楽しさを持つ譜面になっています。

件の1/8について、原作のBMSでは所謂ズレ配置といったものになっており、譜面の最大の個性となっていると思います。
たしかに太鼓は打楽器で、私も打楽器のリズムを取った場合の方が気持ちが良いことが多いと思いますが、Virtuosoにおいてはそうではないと思います。
ピアノのズレた音に合わせたズレ配置というのはこの曲でしか出来ないことであり、それを大音符の1/2や1/4の複合などの没個性的な配置で埋めるというのは、楽しさを捨てることに他なりません。

正確な音取りを求めて、1/16, 1/12, 1/6や、単音を入り混ぜたパターン、黄色戦の上から始まるパターン等が挙げられていますが、どれもプレイ感を感じられないパターンだと思います。
まず視覚的な面において、1/16, 1/12は視認しづらいことこの上ありません。1/6については音に合ってすらいません。
単音や黄色線の上から始まるパターン、これは実際にプレイした上で言っているのでしょうか。私にはプレイし辛くてたまりません。

たしかに音取りは大切ですが、私は、それは譜面を楽しませる上での一つの手段に過ぎないと思っています。
音を拾えば演奏感が得られ、プレイ感が高まり楽しい譜面になる可能性が高いでしょうが、音を拾ったからといって楽しい譜面になるとは限りません。
プレイ感が全ての上にあり、その中に音取りがあるに過ぎません。
明らかに音から外れている配置は、プレイ感を損ね楽しく無い譜面になる可能性が高まりますが、プレイ中にプレイヤーが意識できない程細かい音取りはマッパーの自己満足に過ぎません。

そういった考えの上で、Virtuosoの1/8は「視覚面」「演奏感」「MANIERAという曲の特徴であるところのズレ配置」を感じられる最良の配置だと思います。
これよりノーツ数が少なくても多くても、間隔が狭くても広くても、視覚的、又はプレイ時の演奏感が失われると思います。
長い文章、失礼しました。

[ Eon Fox ]

302 posts

Joined September 2014

[ Eon Fox ] 2017-06-06T21:21:14+00:00

maziari1105 wrote:
iloveyou4ever wrote:
[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.
Thanks for mod.

MOD返信ついでに、Virtuosoに対する私の所感を書いておきます。
1/8の2連打に焦点が当てられて議論をされているようなので、私もその点について書きます。

Following the reply, I'll write my feelings for "Virtuoso".
I can't write long complex sentences with my English so I'll write in Japanese. Sorry.
Please translate with excellent Google translate.

まず、Virtuosoの全体の構成について。
言うまでも無く、この譜面はピアノに重きを置いて音取りがされており、ドラムの打楽器的なリズムを取り入れることでより演奏感を得た譜面になっています。
また、サビでは同じメロディを刻みながらも違ったリズムを刻める、この曲だからこそ出来る楽しさを持つ譜面になっています。

件の1/8について、原作のBMSでは所謂ズレ配置といったものになっており、譜面の最大の個性となっていると思います。
たしかに太鼓は打楽器で、私も打楽器のリズムを取った場合の方が気持ちが良いことが多いと思いますが、Virtuosoにおいてはそうではないと思います。
ピアノのズレた音に合わせたズレ配置というのはこの曲でしか出来ないことであり、それを大音符の1/2や1/4の複合などの没個性的な配置で埋めるというのは、楽しさを捨てることに他なりません。

正確な音取りを求めて、1/16, 1/12, 1/6や、単音を入り混ぜたパターン、黄色戦の上から始まるパターン等が挙げられていますが、どれもプレイ感を感じられないパターンだと思います。
まず視覚的な面において、1/16, 1/12は視認しづらいことこの上ありません。1/6については音に合ってすらいません。
単音や黄色線の上から始まるパターン、これは実際にプレイした上で言っているのでしょうか。私にはプレイし辛くてたまりません。

たしかに音取りは大切ですが、私は、それは譜面を楽しませる上での一つの手段に過ぎないと思っています。
音を拾えば演奏感が得られ、プレイ感が高まり楽しい譜面になる可能性が高いでしょうが、音を拾ったからといって楽しい譜面になるとは限りません。
プレイ感が全ての上にあり、その中に音取りがあるに過ぎません。
明らかに音から外れている配置は、プレイ感を損ね楽しく無い譜面になる可能性が高まりますが、プレイ中にプレイヤーが意識できない程細かい音取りはマッパーの自己満足に過ぎません。

そういった考えの上で、Virtuosoの1/8は「視覚面」「演奏感」「MANIERAという曲の特徴であるところのズレ配置」を感じられる最良の配置だと思います。
これよりノーツ数が少なくても多くても、間隔が狭くても広くても、視覚的、又はプレイ時の演奏感が失われると思います。
長い文章、失礼しました。

私は同じ考え方だ。音楽に従うことが重要です、プレイアビリティを確保することはさらに重要です！パーカッションとピアノの両方が存在するため、妥協が必要です。しかし、1/8のノートを返す、プレイアビリティは完全に戻ってきます。うまくいけば、同様にこのことを認識BNs。

私の貧しい日本人には申し訳ありません。

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-06-07T14:05:43+00:00

update: added 1/8 doublets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - based on some people's post.

Last edited by _yu68 2017-09-24T08:33:14+00:00, edited 3 times in total.

Skylish

1,069 posts

Joined June 2013

Skylish 2017-06-09T05:40:12+00:00

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
The words of Eon Fox
Skylish wrote:
Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.
I think something needs to be said on this point, because this issue is really being danced around.

No matter who is looking at Virtuoso, the objections almost always are concerning the 1/8 doublets. There's one problem, however. Whenever I see BNs and QATs trying to justify their raised concerns, it seems like a lot of the time that the only real argument that is being pushed is simply that 1/8 doublets aren't common in Taiko.

That doesn't feel like an actually rational and/or valid reasoning, because not terribly long ago, 1/4 and 1/6 being in the same stream was viewed as verboten. True, Taiko is a mode that doesn't need excessive evolution, but this isn't something new or even that extreme, since both RoR's and FoTS' Tatsujins use it (the latter VERY questionably).

Now, I have taken the liberty of looking at a direct MIDI version of Maniera, and to be frankly honest, it's actually 1/8 triplets being played on the piano, and they are most certainly not grace notes, as they are actually supposed to be... *drumroll*... a 1/8 triplet followed by 1/8 duplets (as _yu had correctly done at the measures 27 and 28) and, shortly afterward, a long stream of 1/8 triplets that is followed by 1/8 duplets. Seeing as how 1/8 duplets rustled some jimmies already, I can't imagine you'd want to have 1/8 triplets.

Now, you might be wondering just how I know this is 1/8 and not 1/6. Simply put, it wouldn't snap correctly to the notes at 1/6. The patterns for both I can give full detail of B:S:T and note plus octaves upon request. It appears that yu actually went for the simplified route and left out the highest note for each. So if anyone still wants to stand by the notion that _yu's decision to map the 1/8 triples is in question regarding its validity, I will be more than happy to thoroughly ream your argument apart by providing extensive evidence that is in _yu's favour.

EDIT: Pics of MIDI, at the request of Chromoxx.

Pattern I:

Pattern II:

Firstly, I would like to clarify that: I am not aiming at popping any 1/8 doublets since they are uncommon, it's not my target at all. My focus is always on the usage and and matches of notes with music.

Speaking back to the screenshots you provided before, thanks for providing the MIDI source of Maniera which is utterly supporting my points of view in Virtuoso actually. I am pretty confident that the current usage of 1/8 doublets are mis-matched as you can see the starting points of them (Measure 27/28). It is incomprehensible for me to understand.

Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-06-09T07:54:33+00:00

.

Last edited by _yu68 2017-06-09T23:29:44+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

m421

102 posts

Joined June 2014

m421 2017-06-09T08:09:36+00:00

Skylish wrote:
Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.

Taiko is a rhythm game, not a sequencer imo.
Isn't prioritizing picking up sound rather than fun putting the cart before the horse?
Or, do you think picking up this complex rhythm accurately is fun?
I don't mean to be rude, but I think you don't have enough playing skills to correctly evaluate this map...

Last edited by m421 2017-06-09T13:31:51+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

Yuzeyun

7,622 posts

Joined September 2010

Yuzeyun 2017-06-09T08:27:54+00:00

my 2c

all memes aside, here's a screenshot from the official BMS chart at measure 27. (screenshot provided by ya boi) looks pretty obvious that aint some accurate 32nds shit but i don't think anyone in their right mind will put 192nds on a chart, not that it's possible to begin with.

32nd doublets are not here for strict accuracy. they are here for close accuracy. if you were to make strict accuracy, this taiko chart would be practically unplayable (as shown with the very complex and irregular triples)

this is not the whole deal, but this screenshot is representative enough of the entire pitchfuck noteshit happening for several measures. while it is about the ascending part, the same can be said about the descending part, and what follows.

if you want strict accuracy, please move to osu!mania.

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-06-09T09:46:51+00:00

_yu68 wrote:
update: added 1/8 doublets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - based on some people's post.

deleted it by raiden's veto

Chromoxx

904 posts

Joined August 2012

Chromoxx 2017-06-09T11:57:55+00:00

@skylish: ur confusing taiko with mania, it's not absolutely strict with snappings when playability is infringed.. there are plenty of examples for this in maps, which have high bpm 1/8 bursts in the song but are mapped as 1/6 for better playability. In this case shifting the doublets would both look and play awkwardly.

mangomizer

120 posts

Joined September 2012

mangomizer 2017-06-09T15:27:08+00:00

To those who say Maniera 1/8ths are dumb, I have this to say:

It's not really about whether the 1/8ths timings fit or not, or whether the timing position is right. Personally, it is pretty clear to me that _yu68 has mapped doublets to acknowledge the presence of a different sound (ie. grace notes). It doesn't really matter whatever snap he uses, be it 1/6th, or 1/12th. It's just the fact that doublets, in general, are effective at creating an extra layer of thickness/texture, and this is basically what _yu68 is trying to achieve - a thicker sound during the grace note sections, that is ON THE BEAT (not off), making it easy and intuitive to follow.

This is really just an "intensity" issue. Plenty of times in the past have there been examples where 1/6th + 1/4th snaps have been used to emphasise intensity, even if the music does not support it with sound effects. Why the hell should 1/8th doublets be any different?

Can we please just stop pussyfooting around and dancing around the subject, just give the poor man a break and send this map through to ranked!

Lumenite-

630 posts

Joined April 2015

Lumenite- 2017-06-09T19:47:21+00:00

I'm simply going to state some facts, with an opinion sprinkled here and there.

Someone brought up Skylish isn't qualified enough to judge this map-this statement isn't completely false. "Do not nominate a beatmap if you cannot reasonably judge it. Being able to reasonably play and analyze a beatmap is a core part of being able to judge a beatmap’s quality. If you are multiple tiers below the playing level of the map and do not excel with outstanding amount of experience and expertise, we may call your ability to judge it into question." The key words here are "multiple tiers below." Skylish definitely is NOT the ideal nominator to call into question the legitimacy of Virtuoso's structure, however his opinion nonetheless is still valuable, as are all opinions.

That being said, it is another fact that the 1/8 doublets plotted in this map are an attempt to emphasize the presence of grace notes. I don't need to explain what a grace note is, but I do need to emphasize the fact that quite often leaving a grace note out in a musical composition will have little to no effect on the overall effect of the music. It's quite like an ornament on a Christmas tree-it makes it look nice, but the tree can easily go without it. That is the reason that many symphonic directors in my experience will tell the band to ignore the grace note, because leaving it out will not effect the music as much as you might think.

Here's my opinion on the 1/8 usage-it's necessary, but not completely. In the first string of 1/8's the only true calling for 1/8 is for notes 00:32:926 (292,293,294,295) - . The rest sound just fine as 1/1. On the second, much longer usage however, the long 1/8 string that _yu68 has mapped cannot simply be left as 1/1-it should be left as 1/8 doublets, just as it was in the 8.06* version.

The map can use simplification FAR past what I think, and to me the 1/8 argument is simply divided half between people who want the pp and people who are striving for musical accuracy. Surely there is a way to compromise and make all parties happy without hindering someone's hard work from becoming ranked.

Good luck with the rank, _yu68.

Nardoxyribonucleic

osu! Alumni

3,009 posts

Joined May 2011

Nardoxyribonucleic 2017-06-18T16:13:36+00:00

Here is the follow-through mod for the whole set after the heated discussion.

[Vulkin's Kantan]

00:42:734 and 00:43:022 - consider adding k here for a more balanced spread ? Currently its gap with Futsuu is rather big due to the dense 1/1 arrangements in Futsuu.
00:45:041 (62) - you may move this note to 00:44:464 - and change to d if you apply ^ for pattern variety. Then you can add finish at 00:45:331 (63) - for better emphasis.
00:47:349 and 00:47:637 - same as 00:42:734 -
00:49:657 (72) - similar to 00:45:041 (62) - , you may move this note to 00:49:080 - and add finish at 00:49:946 (73) -
01:06:386 and 01:06:675 - similar to 00:42:734 - , adding d here would help reduce the gap.
01:14:751 and 01:15:040 - same as ^
01:18:213 and 01:18:501 - similar to ^ , adding k at these spots would work well.
01:23:694 and 01:23:982 - same as 01:06:386 -
01:53:408 - same as 00:42:734 -

[Futsuu]

01:12:300 - consider adding k here to make this part more interesting to play ? This would also result in a better spread with Muzukashii.

[Muzukashii]

00:49:512 - maybe add d here to cohere with the pattern length at 00:44:609 (2,1,2,3,1,2,1) - ?

[Oni]

00:24:849 (1,1) - swapping these notes to k d would help reflect the pitch decrease of piano there.
00:33:070 (1) - changing this note to d would fit the sudden pitch drop well.
01:14:175 (2,3,4,5,1,1,2,3) - similar to 00:24:849 - , maybe try k d k k d d k k here ?

[Mrriichi's Inner Oni]

00:02:061 - I think you need to lower the hitsound volume to about 45% so that the soft background beats would not be overemphasized.
00:02:782 - you may add a green line here with 90% volume for the drums.

[maziari's Hell Oni]

00:15:258 - pattern inconsistency with 00:39:488 -
00:25:570 (193,194,195,196) - I think this 1/6 pattern is really questionable as the background piano is clearly 1/4. Please consider replacing this with 1/4 kdk so that the piano could be followed in a more appropriate way.
01:10:713 (536,537,538,539,540,541,542,543,544) - similar to ^ , replacing these 1/6 notes with 1/4 kkd would be fine here.
From 01:42:735 to 01:49:658 - would you mind justifying the use of 1/2 + 1/4 patterns in this session ? I think they should be mapped with 1/3 ones to respect the background music.

[Virtuoso]

After some further considerations, I think you may keep the 1/8 doublets to decorate the scattered background piano although there exists possible alternatives like consecutive 1/2 big notes or longer 1/4 streams.

00:33:070 (300,301) - similar to Oni, you may change both notes to d with respect to the pitch of piano.
00:56:868 - this note could be k to serve as an increase in kat density starting from 00:54:272 - . It would be less repetitive compared to 00:55:570 (512,513,514,515,516,517) - as well.
01:00:089 (544) - maybe delete this note as mentioned in Ono's post ? This would emphasize the cymbals occurring at 00:59:897 (543,545) - nicely.

You may call me back after that~

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-06-18T16:43:58+00:00

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
Here is the follow-through mod for the whole set after the heated discussion.

[Futsuu]
01:12:300 - consider adding k here to make this part more interesting to play ? This would also result in a better spread with Muzukashii. added
[Muzukashii]
00:49:512 - maybe add d here to cohere with the pattern length at 00:44:609 (2,1,2,3,1,2,1) - ? added
[Oni]
00:24:849 (1,1) - swapping these notes to k d would help reflect the pitch decrease of piano there. changed only 00:24:849 (1) - to k in order to emphasize 00:25:137 -
00:33:070 (1) - changing this note to d would fit the sudden pitch drop well. i would keep in order to make ease of playing next 1/4
01:14:175 (2,3,4,5,1,1,2,3) - similar to 00:24:849 - , maybe try k d k k d d k k here ? changed
[Virtuoso]

After some further considerations, I think you may keep the 1/8 doublets to decorate the scattered background piano although there exists possible alternatives like consecutive 1/2 big notes or longer 1/4 streams.
00:33:070 (300,301) - similar to Oni, you may change both notes to d with respect to the pitch of piano. same as oni, i'd keep it for ease of playing
00:56:868 - this note could be k to serve as an increase in kat density starting from 00:54:272 - . It would be less repetitive compared to 00:55:570 (512,513,514,515,516,517) - as well. changed
01:00:089 (544) - maybe delete this note as mentioned in Ono's post ? This would emphasize the cymbals occurring at 00:59:897 (543,545) - nicely. considering the flow, i think it's better to follow the piano rather than the cymbal (since 00:58:383 (531,532) - 00:59:248 (538,539) - etc are following piano)
You may call me back after that~

Thanks mod :3

m421

102 posts

Joined June 2014

m421 2017-06-18T17:18:43+00:00

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
[maziari's Hell Oni]
00:15:258 - pattern inconsistency with 00:39:488 -
>changed 00:39:488: to same rhythm as 00:15:258: .
00:25:570 (193,194,195,196) - I think this 1/6 pattern is really questionable as the background piano is clearly 1/4. Please consider replacing this with 1/4 kdk so that the piano could be followed in a more appropriate way.
>Surely each sound is 1/4, but if listen as a continuous sound, this sounds like a glissando. So to express it, 1/6 is necessary imo.
01:10:713 (536,537,538,539,540,541,542,543,544) - similar to ^ , replacing these 1/6 notes with 1/4 kkd would be fine here.
>01:11:867: ~ is climax part, so I raised before there density the most intelligent means of excitement, also to distinguish the rhythm with 01:11:434 (549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559):, I think this 1/6 is necessary.
From 01:42:735 to 01:49:658 - would you mind justifying the use of 1/2 + 1/4 patterns in this session ? I think they should be mapped with 1/3 ones to respect the background music.
>In this difficulty, I picked up sound percussion rhythm mainly. This is consistent. So suddenly picking up the sound of a only piano by ignoring the percussion rhythm is unnatural imo. Also since the flow to here has been raised by the percussion rhythm, so connecting percussion rhythm is natural.

.osu

osu file format v14

[General]
AudioFilename: MANIERA.mp3
AudioLeadIn: 0
PreviewTime: 17060
Countdown: 0
SampleSet: Normal
StackLeniency: 0.7
Mode: 1
LetterboxInBreaks: 0
WidescreenStoryboard: 0

[Editor]
DistanceSpacing: 1.3
BeatDivisor: 4
GridSize: 32
TimelineZoom: 2.9

[Metadata]
Title:MANIERA
TitleUnicode:MANIERA
Artist:D(ABE3)
ArtistUnicode:D(ABE3)
Creator:_yu68
Version:maziari's Hell Oni
Source:BMS
Tags:abe yuta vulkin mrriichi maziari1105 maziari bof2011 dwmω encore piano
BeatmapID:941146
BeatmapSetID:400761

[Difficulty]
HPDrainRate:6.6
CircleSize:6.6
OverallDifficulty:6.6
ApproachRate:6.6
SliderMultiplier:1.4
SliderTickRate:1

[Events]
//Background and Video events
0,0,"maniera.jpg",0,0
//Break Periods
//Storyboard Layer 0 (Background)
//Storyboard Layer 1 (Fail)
//Storyboard Layer 2 (Pass)
//Storyboard Layer 3 (Foreground)
//Storyboard Sound Samples

[TimingPoints]
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62060,288.461538461538,3,1,0,90,1,0
67252,288.461538461538,4,1,0,90,1,1
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118889,-88.8889423076923,4,1,0,90,0,0
119863,360.576923076923,4,1,0,90,1,8
119863,-80,4,1,0,90,0,0
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120223,-70.5865384615385,4,1,0,90,0,0
120835,540.865384615385,4,1,0,90,1,8
120835,-53.3317307692308,4,1,0,90,0,0
121105,288.461538461538,4,1,0,90,1,0


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Vulkin

1,618 posts

Joined September 2014

Vulkin 2017-06-18T19:09:37+00:00

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
Here is the follow-through mod for the whole set after the heated discussion.

[Vulkin's Kantan]
00:42:734 and 00:43:022 - consider adding k here for a more balanced spread ? Currently its gap with Futsuu is rather big due to the dense 1/1 arrangements in Futsuu. Added
00:45:041 (62) - you may move this note to 00:44:464 - and change to d if you apply ^ for pattern variety. Then you can add finish at 00:45:331 (63) - for better emphasis.Changed, although i changed some previous notes, because although i like variety, note position consistency is something that i would like for it to remain.
00:47:349 and 00:47:637 - same as 00:42:734 - ^
00:49:657 (72) - similar to 00:45:041 (62) - , you may move this note to 00:49:080 - and add finish at 00:49:946 (73) - Done
01:06:386 and 01:06:675 - similar to 00:42:734 - , adding d here would help reduce the gap. Added in other places but on the same section
01:14:751 and 01:15:040 - same as ^Added
01:18:213 and 01:18:501 - similar to ^ , adding k at these spots would work well. Added, i hope they wont be nuisance for lack of break though o-o
01:23:694 and 01:23:982 - same as 01:06:386 - I added something at 01:26:001 - & 01:26:290 - so it maintains consistency (same piano pattern), and deleted 01:27:444 - 01:28:598 - to give a break accordingly
01:53:408 - same as 00:42:734 - added
You may call me back after that~

Thanks for the mod ^^

Magic Box

osu file format v14

[General]
AudioFilename: MANIERA.mp3
AudioLeadIn: 0
PreviewTime: 17060
Countdown: 0
SampleSet: Normal
StackLeniency: 0.7
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LetterboxInBreaks: 0
WidescreenStoryboard: 0

[Editor]
Bookmarks: 17060,26291
DistanceSpacing: 1.3
BeatDivisor: 2
GridSize: 32
TimelineZoom: 1.7

[Metadata]
Title:MANIERA
TitleUnicode:MANIERA
Artist:D(ABE3)
ArtistUnicode:D(ABE3)
Creator:_yu68
Version:Vulkin's Kantan
Source:BMS
Tags:abe yuta vulkin mrriichi maziari1105 maziari bof2011 dwmω encore piano
BeatmapID:885298
BeatmapSetID:400761

[Difficulty]
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CircleSize:5
OverallDifficulty:3
ApproachRate:5
SliderMultiplier:1.2
SliderTickRate:1

[Events]
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//Storyboard Sound Samples

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[ Eon Fox ]

302 posts

Joined September 2014

[ Eon Fox ] 2017-06-18T22:47:47+00:00

Skylish wrote:
Firstly, I would like to clarify that: I am not aiming at popping any 1/8 doublets since they are uncommon, it's not my target at all. My focus is always on the usage and and matches of notes with music.

Speaking back to the screenshots you provided before, thanks for providing the MIDI source of Maniera which is utterly supporting my points of view in Virtuoso actually. I am pretty confident that the current usage of 1/8 doublets are mis-matched as you can see the starting points of them (Measure 27/28). It is incomprehensible for me to understand.

Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.

I disagree.

First off, you claimed your focus is "always on the usage of and matches of with music (I'm assuming that's what that tragedy of a sentence says)". This clearly is not the case. The 1/8s are a reduction from 96th triplets (in osu terminology, 1/12 triplets), using the secondary and tertiary notes in each triplet, which makes for 1/8 duplets. You cannot reduce that to 1/6 doublets, because that loses 33% of the notes for no reason. That matches nothing.

Second, the MIDI in no way supports your very flawed viewpoints. Your "pretty confident" conclusion is completely counter to what both the full MIDI and base reductive melody of the MIDI state with provable and tangible computer data, and such data was independently verified by Gezo's waveform analysis. There are definitively 1/8 duplets occupying the space at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - , and this has been proven by two separate users using perfectly precise computers.

Your hunch is in no way superior in weight to empirical computer data, and you yourself said that it is incomprehensible for you to understand. That would be because you lack the knowledge to understand the underlying concepts at work. Perhaps your most egregious statement is when you stated, "Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations."

I can hardly put into words how much I disagree. The common sense and expectations of the player ARE that what they see and play matches the music. That is the entire point of a rhythm game: players work on the assumption the music and the gameplay elements are happening in synchronicity. The song very clearly calls for 1/8 duplets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - , and only an imbecile would believe otherwise in the fact of overwhelming data.

That sudden shift to 1/6 for two notes (with four heard) is absurd and awkward.

Last edited by pishifat 2017-06-19T06:16:22+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

[ Eon Fox ]

302 posts

Joined September 2014

[ Eon Fox ] 2017-06-18T23:17:38+00:00

_yu68 wrote:
_yu68 wrote:
update: added 1/8 doublets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - based on some people's post.
deleted it by raiden's veto

そして私はあなたに尋ねる、それらを返す。私を含め何人かが、1/8ダブレットの存在のために実質的な証拠を与えました。 SkylishとRaidenはここで間違いがあります。あなたはそれらの1/8ダブレットなしManieraをランク付けした場合には、マッパーとして、そして太鼓コミュニティにあなたに大きな害になります！

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-06-19T06:53:34+00:00

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
そして私はあなたに尋ねる、それらを返す。私を含め何人かが、1/8ダブレットの存在のために実質的な証拠を与えました。 SkylishとRaidenはここで間違いがあります。あなたはそれらの1/8ダブレットなしManieraをランク付けした場合には、マッパーとして、そして太鼓コミュニティにあなたに大きな害になります！

I'm understanding it.
However, in order to re-add 1/8 doublets, I need to find a nominator who agree it.
No change for now. Sorry.

[ Eon Fox ]

302 posts

Joined September 2014

[ Eon Fox ] 2017-06-19T21:25:45+00:00

_yu68 wrote:
[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
そして私はあなたに尋ねる、それらを返す。私を含め何人かが、1/8ダブレットの存在のために実質的な証拠を与えました。 SkylishとRaidenはここで間違いがあります。あなたはそれらの1/8ダブレットなしManieraをランク付けした場合には、マッパーとして、そして太鼓コミュニティにあなたに大きな害になります！
I'm understanding it.
However, in order to re-add 1/8 doublets, I need to find a nominator who agree it.
No change for now. Sorry.

私はSuronoやTatsukeがそれを指名してくれると喜んでいると確信しています。どちらもBNであり、どちらもVirtuosoのようであり、両方ともRaidenよりも説得しやすい。私はTatsukeをお勧めします。彼は1/8ダブレットの決定をサポートしているだけでなく、マップも好きです。

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-06-19T22:29:17+00:00

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
私はSuronoやTatsukeがそれを指名してくれると喜んでいると確信しています。どちらもBNであり、どちらもVirtuosoのようであり、両方ともRaidenよりも説得しやすい。私はTatsukeをお勧めします。彼は1/8ダブレットの決定をサポートしているだけでなく、マップも好きです。

I guess they don't have time to recheck it.

Skylish

1,069 posts

Joined June 2013

Skylish 2017-06-20T00:51:46+00:00

I have no idea how the modders/ passers-by check my previous mods, but probably they get the wrong idea all the time, smh.

If yu thinks that 1/8 doublets starting on the on-beat is smoother and sounds better, then just do that. However it does not affect a single word in my suggestion, I am okay with yu's new arrangement once he can explain the rationale behind. (and he did it for several times already I guess, including the one with Raiden's)

Still, asking for someone who suggest concrete ideas to shut up and go away is kinda ignorant and dumb. Making any unnecessary personal attack does not help the map at all, unless you think neglect any impt suggestions is a good deed.

From now one, good luck on the ranking process. 頑張ります！

Vulkin

1,618 posts

Joined September 2014

Vulkin 2017-06-20T01:34:34+00:00

is this the end of drama?

please be it...

Shadowa Pinkman

952 posts

Joined March 2013

Shadowa Pinkman 2017-06-20T06:46:36+00:00

When I play Virtuoso first time, I was thinking what yumuya emphasized grace notes with. I thought it would be finisher, 1/4 stream or just 1/2 snapped notes. I saw 1/8 doublets and said "Oh my god.If the mapper was me, I would not think to map here like that". They fit perfectly and create clear structure. If there were finishers, 1/4 or 1/2 snapped notes, it would not fit at all. People criticized this part because they thought it was for free pp. That's why there was heated discussion. So can you guys give suggestion which will IMPROVE the map (the map doesn't need modding or suggestion now,too late lol)? When you try to find another ways instead of 1/8 doublets due to "free pp", it's getting more ridiculous.

Well,I did not write it to insult anyone or imply anything. I just wanted to write it to relax, because it will get more complex if you guys continue finding mistakes stubbornly.Anyway,good luck yumuya!

Maya Tendo

196 posts

Joined February 2015

Maya Tendo 2017-06-20T11:46:51+00:00

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
[Mrriichi's Inner Oni]
00:02:061 - I think you need to lower the hitsound volume to about 45% so that the soft background beats would not be overemphasized.
00:02:782 - you may add a green line here with 90% volume for the drums.
no change because same reason as this
You may call me back after that~

no change

[ Eon Fox ]

302 posts

Joined September 2014

[ Eon Fox ] 2017-06-20T15:34:05+00:00

_yu68 wrote:
[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
私はSuronoやTatsukeがそれを指名してくれると喜んでいると確信しています。どちらもBNであり、どちらもVirtuosoのようであり、両方ともRaidenよりも説得しやすい。私はTatsukeをお勧めします。彼は1/8ダブレットの決定をサポートしているだけでなく、マップも好きです。
I guess they don't have time to recheck it.

私はTasukeと話しただけで、彼は1/8ダブレットが返されたら彼がマップを指名する意思があると述べた。

yuzu__rinrin

943 posts

Joined July 2014

yuzu__rinrin 2017-06-23T14:09:03+00:00

Kantan
00:49:368 (72,73) - Concurrent object, fix please. W

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-06-24T09:03:49+00:00

yuzu__rinrin wrote:
Kantan
00:49:368 (72,73) - Concurrent object, fix please. W

fixed.

Vulkin

1,618 posts

Joined September 2014

Vulkin 2017-06-24T22:53:36+00:00

yuzu__rinrin wrote:
Kantan
00:49:368 (72,73) - Concurrent object, fix please. W

sorry for doing that ;_;
thanks _yu68 for fixing it

Surono

7,196 posts

Joined November 2013

Surono 2017-06-25T18:44:46+00:00

Yeh I have time but not really interest too since this is a mapset, thought is this hell discussion are about pp 1/8 pattern? even Im fine with that lol really, maziari quote gg "Taiko is a rhythm game, not a sequencer imo.". well I let those people who are good at checking spread/rest section density each lower diffs because I saw in discord bns/qat discussion are mostly about patterning/structure with rhythmical or spread issues i guess, if I checking this yeah I will took many time to do it and I had my own interest for other maps tho

good luck with the ranking process and people who are support this map!

Arrival

1,418 posts

Joined June 2012

Arrival 2017-07-11T07:47:23+00:00

Rechecked everything let's go ahead already

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-07-11T07:55:50+00:00

Arrival wrote:
Rechecked everything let's go ahead already

Thank you!
I'm waiting for the answer to my question from Nardo. (About whether notes can be added to 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - )

Horiiizon

142 posts

Joined March 2016

Horiiizon 2017-07-11T19:18:28+00:00

Bubbled again!

Nardoxyribonucleic

osu! Alumni

3,009 posts

Joined May 2011

Nardoxyribonucleic 2017-07-12T09:44:25+00:00

_yu68 wrote:
I'm waiting for the answer to my question from Nardo. (About whether notes can be added to 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - )

Please leave that to me. I will recheck it as soon as possible.

Vulkin

1,618 posts

Joined September 2014

Vulkin 2017-07-13T04:45:37+00:00

HYPE

Tyistiana

osu! Alumni

541 posts

Joined February 2012

Tyistiana 2017-07-15T05:19:37+00:00

Hi, yumuya~
Please note that this is only my suggestion, so feel free to deny them.

Take this one not seriously, like friendly modding~
This is only my curiosity.

[Vulkin's Kantan]
00:17:060 - I'm afraid that this pitch is not strong enough to use D , or at least maybe it's same pitch as 00:21:676
00:24:560 - Change to d might be better, to make a difference between this note and 00:23:984
00:39:272 - Very strong pitch here, how about add D here?
01:06:098 - Hmmm, how about k , to make a difference between this note and 01:05:521
01:11:002 - How about change to d to match somethings you've do it before as 00:20:810
01:11:290 - Change to K , same reason above.
01:15:040 (19,20) - Change to k might be better, to emphasize the pitch here.

[Futsuu]
00:04:945 - How about delete this? Almost voiceless to make the beginner player understand this rhythm.
00:13:022 - Delete, similar reason to 00:14:464. Or if keep 00:13:022, please consider to add note on 00:14:464. To prevent player confuse the rhythm here.
00:39:272 - Same suggestion on Kantan , strong pitch here, how about add D here? maybe it's same reason why you add note here like 00:32:060 (maybe?)
00:41:724 - I love this one too, but how about we follow the piano pitch instead. Like this?

I find that this will be better, and which it's help to make we able to emphasize the piano here 00:43:310 and player will not confuse about it.
00:46:339 - Same :3
00:49:945 - How about d? , might be fitter.

[Virtuoso]
00:04:296 - How about delete this note to emphasize 00:04:368. To match the thing that you've emphasize the similar pitch as 00:06:099
00:04:368 - If follow my upper suggestion, then change this to D might me better.
00:05:450 - In my opinion, this one to o. Same reason above as to emphasize the pitch like 00:05:522
00:29:609 - How about add note here? Still have a pitch here.
00:29:825 - How about add d here? Due to this pitch have a drag voice.
00:30:618 - Shouldn't be d here? To make a difference between this note and 00:30:762. Because pitch on 00:30:762 have a piano pitch while 00:30:618 have not any piano pitch.
00:33:106 - For now, delete this note in case of 00:36:423 / 00:36:568 which it have similar pitch and it have been deleted too. I think that this point is a great example to discuss on the 00:36:423 / 00:36:568. And if you consider to add note back on 00:36:423 / 00:36:568 Please consider it again to add this back.
00:34:260 - How about make this doublet too? In my opinion. Because for me, I think that it's have something same on 00:34:404
00:36:423 / 00:36:568 - This is only my opinion. I didn't consider about pp on this part. I consider by how rhythm deserve to place note in which way. Since the pitch of the piano going down and this pitch is the lowest pitch. So If I were you. I'll have 2 choices in my mind.
1. Add note here, for the inner while playing, since I've test to play this map too, I'm very confuse why these isn't a doublet as others. If we consider to map this for the fun and for the inner while playing. Add it back might be good!
2. Keep, in case of this pitch isn't give a way in 1/8 that much. It's almost voiceless enough to not use 1/8 here.
Please wait for Nardo's answer might be the best choice. I'm not the experience mapper. ;;w;;

I hope this will be help even a little.
Good luck for ranked~

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-07-15T05:49:55+00:00

Tyistiana wrote:
Hi, yumuya~
Please note that this is only my suggestion, so feel free to deny them.
Take this one not seriously, like friendly modding~
This is only my curiosity.

[Futsuu]
00:04:945 - How about delete this? Almost voiceless to make the beginner player understand this rhythm. Triplet is easier to understand rhythm than doublet imo.
00:13:022 - Delete, similar reason to 00:14:464. Or if keep 00:13:022, please consider to add note on 00:14:464. To prevent player confuse the rhythm here. From 00:12:445 - , xxx_xxx _..., I think that it's a enough simple rhythm.
00:39:272 - Same suggestion on Kantan , strong pitch here, how about add D here? maybe it's same reason why you add note here like 00:32:060 (maybe?) I wouldn't put it for consistency with 00:15:041 - .
00:41:724 - I love this one too, but how about we follow the piano pitch instead. Like this?

I find that this will be better, and which it's help to make we able to emphasize the piano here 00:43:310 and player will not confuse about it. changed
00:46:339 - Same :3 same
00:49:945 - How about d? , might be fitter. I changed instead 00:49:657 (1,2) - to dd considering the pitch.

[Virtuoso]
00:04:296 - How about delete this note to emphasize 00:04:368. To match the thing that you've emphasize the similar pitch as 00:06:099 I think that it's sufficiently emphasized by difference between k and d.
00:04:368 - If follow my upper suggestion, then change this to D might me better. I didn't change because of ^.
00:05:450 - In my opinion, this one to o. Same reason above as to emphasize the pitch like 00:05:522 I would like to emphasize 00:05:089 (28,29,30,32) - those sounds.
00:29:609 - How about add note here? Still have a pitch here. added + 00:27:301 (243) - added k
00:29:825 - How about add d here? Due to this pitch have a drag voice. I would keep to emphasize 00:29:753 (266) - .
00:30:618 - Shouldn't be d here? To make a difference between this note and 00:30:762. Because pitch on 00:30:762 have a piano pitch while 00:30:618 have not any piano pitch. I want to give priority to the cymbal because they sound clearer than the pitch.
00:33:106 - For now, delete this note in case of 00:36:423 / 00:36:568 which it have similar pitch and it have been deleted too. I think that this point is a great example to discuss on the 00:36:423 / 00:36:568. And if you consider to add note back on 00:36:423 / 00:36:568 Please consider it again to add this back. I would also consider QAT and other modder's opinions. keep for now
00:34:260 - How about make this doublet too? In my opinion. Because for me, I think that it's have something same on 00:34:404 I would keep it considering playability.
00:36:423 / 00:36:568 - This is only my opinion. I didn't consider about pp on this part. I consider by how rhythm deserve to place note in which way. Since the pitch of the piano going down and this pitch is the lowest pitch. So If I were you. I'll have 2 choices in my mind.
1. Add note here, for the inner while playing, since I've test to play this map too, I'm very confuse why these isn't a doublet as others. If we consider to map this for the fun and for the inner while playing. Add it back might be good!
2. Keep, in case of this pitch isn't give a way in 1/8 that much. It's almost voiceless enough to not use 1/8 here.
Please wait for Nardo's answer might be the best choice. I'm not the experience mapper. ;;w;; As mentioned above, I'd wait for Nardo and other modder's opinion.

I hope this will be help even a little.
Good luck for ranked~

Thank you for modding

Vulkin

1,618 posts

Joined September 2014

Vulkin 2017-07-15T21:12:09+00:00

Tyistiana wrote:
Hi, yumuya~
Please note that this is only my suggestion, so feel free to deny them.
Take this one not seriously, like friendly modding~
This is only my curiosity.

[Vulkin's Kantan]
00:17:060 - I'm afraid that this pitch is not strong enough to use D , or at least maybe it's same pitch as 00:21:676 was following the cymbal
00:24:560 - Change to d might be better, to make a difference between this note and 00:23:984 tried to make it different from 00:19:368 - , but ill make 00:23:985 (29) - d so theres still difference
00:39:272 - Very strong pitch here, how about add D here? added it, but removed 00:38:695 -, dont want crowded notes (took me like 20 minutes to decide how to do it LOL)
01:06:098 - Hmmm, how about k , to make a difference between this note and 01:05:521 wanted to contrast the pitch of 01:06:098 (4) - and 01:06:675 (5) - , as its larger than 01:05:521 (3) - and 01:06:098 (4) - imo
01:11:002 - How about change to d to match somethings you've do it before as 00:20:810 Done ^^
01:11:290 - Change to K , same reason above. ^
01:15:040 (19,20) - Change to k might be better, to emphasize the pitch here. 01:15:039 (19) - changed to k, so next note has some consistency with the d K d K pattern im trying to use

I hope this will be help even a little. it did help ^^ thanks!
Good luck for ranked~ thanks alot for mod :3/

Thanks for mod!
did some changes on my own (added a few finishers)

Update box

osu file format v14

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AudioLeadIn: 0
PreviewTime: 17060
Countdown: 0
SampleSet: Normal
StackLeniency: 0.7
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LetterboxInBreaks: 0
WidescreenStoryboard: 0

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DistanceSpacing: 1.3
BeatDivisor: 2
GridSize: 32
TimelineZoom: 1.7

[Metadata]
Title:MANIERA
TitleUnicode:MANIERA
Artist:D(ABE3)
ArtistUnicode:D(ABE3)
Creator:_yu68
Version:Vulkin's Kantan
Source:BMS
Tags:abe yuta vulkin mrriichi maziari1105 maziari bof2011 dwmω encore piano
BeatmapID:885298
BeatmapSetID:400761

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CircleSize:5
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Nardoxyribonucleic

osu! Alumni

3,009 posts

Joined May 2011

Nardoxyribonucleic 2017-08-11T16:39:51+00:00

@maziari: Your explanations of 1/6 usage at 00:25:570 (193,194,195,196) and 01:10:713 (538,539,540,541,542,543,544,545,546) - are not really convincing as there are no 1/6 sounds at all to support those notes. As only distinct 1/4 sounds can be heard in the background, please reconsider changing them to 1/4 patterns or something else.

@yu: Concerning your question, I have an idea that you may consider as an alternative suggestion of pattern arrangement. Since the stress sounds occur at 00:34:368 - 00:35:522 - 00:36:676 - 00:37:253 - , you may rearrange the 1/8 sequence by moving 00:35:414 (330) to 00:36:423 - so the more stress-intensive part at 00:36:676 - could be emphasized and the overall structure from 00:34:368 to 00:36:676 - would be more organized compared to the current state.

Call me back.

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-08-11T17:07:44+00:00

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
@yu: Concerning your question, I have an idea that you may consider as an alternative suggestion of pattern arrangement. Since the stress sounds occur at 00:34:368 - 00:35:522 - 00:36:676 - 00:37:253 - , you may rearrange the 1/8 sequence by moving 00:35:414 (330) to 00:36:423 - so the more stress-intensive part at 00:36:676 - could be emphasized and the overall structure from 00:34:368 to 00:36:676 - would be more organized compared to the current state.

It's a good idea to emphasize stress sounds. However, in this way, if players hit by using their hands alternately, the hand hitting 00:34:368 - and the hand hitting 00:35:522 - would be opposite. This is very difficult for part of players imo. Since 1/8 are a very unique arrangement, I want to be able to play it as easily as possible.
In the way of deleting 00:35:270 - and 00:35:414 - , it can't show enough the distinctive sounds. For consistency, ease of playing, and matching the song, I want to add the notes.

Edit: Fixed forgetting to write time-code.

Last edited by _yu68 2017-08-21T08:16:23+00:00, edited 2 times in total.

m421

102 posts

Joined June 2014

m421 2017-08-11T17:41:06+00:00

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
@maziari: Your explanations of 1/6 usage at 00:25:570 (193,194,195,196) and 01:10:713 (538,539,540,541,542,543,544,545,546) - are not really convincing as there are no 1/6 sounds at all to support those notes. As only distinct 1/4 sounds can be heard in the background, please reconsider changing them to 1/4 patterns or something else.

Former: It's undesirable because the feeling of piano is diminished,but I moved 1/6 to the place where the sound is ringing.
Also, I adjusted 00:49:657: to the background sound.

Latter: It certainly isn't a 1/6, but also it isn't even a 1/4. The tom's sound ringing here is like a roll, so 1/4 can't express it.
Since there is no way to express accurately, I chose 1/6. If I fill this in 1/4, it'll become flat and a boring map.

.osu

osu file format v14

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Nardoxyribonucleic

osu! Alumni

3,009 posts

Joined May 2011

Nardoxyribonucleic 2017-09-08T12:45:17+00:00

Had some discussions with yumuya in the game. Log as stated below.

IRC check with _yu68, Sep 8, 2017

19:37 _yu68: Hello :3
19:37 Nardoxyribonucleic: Hi :3
19:38 *Nardoxyribonucleic is listening to [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/871924 D(ABE3) - MANIERA]
19:40 Nardoxyribonucleic: First of all, I still think maziari's use of 1/6 at 01:10:713 (539,540,541,542,543,544,545,546,547) - is not very appropriate, but well I'm going to be a bit lenient about it now
19:44 _yu68: I think the 1/6 is showing drum roll well
19:47 Nardoxyribonucleic: Main drum beats falls on 1/4 while there is an extra beat at 01:11:110 -
19:47 Nardoxyribonucleic: That is why I would suggest 1/4
19:47 Nardoxyribonucleic: The rolls are not even snapped in 1/6
19:48 Nardoxyribonucleic: I would not suggest mapping that extra beat as the snaps would be too irregular to follow
19:49 Nardoxyribonucleic: Yet 1/6 would not be the best choice here, that is my stance
19:49 Nardoxyribonucleic: But well as I said, I'm more lenient about this pattern now.
19:50 Nardoxyribonucleic: So maziari may keep that in case he still strongly insists
19:51 _yu68: I see
19:52 Nardoxyribonucleic: Then about Virtuoso
19:53 Nardoxyribonucleic: What was the 1/8 pattern arrangement agreed by Raiden upon his bubble?
19:53 Nardoxyribonucleic: i.e. [https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6021558 this post]
19:57 Nardoxyribonucleic: I need to take that as reference to make comparison
19:58 _yu68: tasuke had said that he can qualify
19:58 Nardoxyribonucleic: He agreed with the current version or?
19:59 Nardoxyribonucleic: Agreed with adding 00:36:423 - 00:36:568 - d
19:59 Nardoxyribonucleic: which one?
19:59 _yu68: yes
19:59 _yu68: Absolutely impossible to ignore raiden's veto?
20:00 Nardoxyribonucleic: You need two other nominators' override
20:01 _yu68: It's Arrival and tasuke
20:02 Nardoxyribonucleic: So both of them agreed with the current version?
20:02 _yu68: Probably
20:03 _yu68: The map has not changed much since they agreed
20:03 _yu68: p/6126340
20:03 _yu68: and,
20:04 _yu68: https://twitter.com/tasuke912/status/877143037066878977
20:04 _yu68: tasuke is saying "If there is no one who QFs MANIERA, I can do it."
20:06 Nardoxyribonucleic: Okay. Before letting you guys move on, one more question.
20:09 Nardoxyribonucleic: 00:35:270 (328,330) - these two are actually similar spots with 00:36:423 - 00:36:568 - . I would like to know the reason of the difference, like why not using at 00:35:234 - and 00:35:378 - as well
20:10 Nardoxyribonucleic: I mean the use of 1/2
20:12 _yu68: as I said in forum, I mapped as 1/8 to make ease of hitting.
20:16 _yu68: ah
20:16 Nardoxyribonucleic: ?
20:17 _yu68: means "why am I using 1/2 there"?
20:17 Nardoxyribonucleic: I was asking why the representations at 00:35:234 (327,328,329,330) - and 00:36:387 (343,344) - are different
20:18 Nardoxyribonucleic: Like, why don't you use 1/2 at the former pair as well
20:22 _yu68: I deleted some 1/8s by raiden's veto, but I can't explain the difference in representations caused by them. I'm sorry
20:22 _yu68: They were the same 1/8 in the older version
20:24 Nardoxyribonucleic: I see. I wondered about the difference because structure-wise, deleting 00:35:270 (328,330) - as well would be more coherent.
20:25 Nardoxyribonucleic: And you talked about hand alternation previously, so I'm mentioning this now
20:26 _yu68: I guess that 1/8 and 1/2 confuse would make players confused
20:28 Nardoxyribonucleic: Hmm so, you think that 14 pairs of 1/8 are better than 6-2-6-2?
20:30 _yu68: I think that it is easy to decide how to hit, although the density is high
20:33 Nardoxyribonucleic: Alright. You may ask Arrival for rebubble and tasuke to requalify then.
20:33 _yu68: Could I add 1/8 to 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - ?
20:37 Nardoxyribonucleic: That is why I asked about the inconsistencies lol
20:38 _yu68: Thanks, and I apologize for my verrrrry poor English._.
20:38 Nardoxyribonucleic: Considering the factor of full alternation together, you have two choices of pattern: Either delete 00:35:270 (328,330) - or add 00:36:423 - 00:36:568 -
20:39 Nardoxyribonucleic: So I think you may choose between these two options regarding pattern consistency
20:40 _yu68: I understand.
20:41 Nardoxyribonucleic: Hmm, so you preferred the latter
20:41 _yu68: chose the later and updated the map
20:42 Nardoxyribonucleic: I guess that is all from my side at the moment. You may ask Arrival and tasuke now.
20:43 _yu68: Thanks so much :3

Arrival

1,418 posts

Joined June 2012

Arrival 2017-09-08T13:01:21+00:00

yes

_yu68

Former osu!taiko Champion: 2017

492 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

_yu68 2017-09-08T13:23:20+00:00

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:
Had some discussions with yumuya in the game. Log as stated below.

IRC check with _yu68, Sep 8, 2017
19:37 _yu68: Hello :3
19:37 Nardoxyribonucleic: Hi :3
19:38 *Nardoxyribonucleic is listening to [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/871924 D(ABE3) - MANIERA]
19:40 Nardoxyribonucleic: First of all, I still think maziari's use of 1/6 at 01:10:713 (539,540,541,542,543,544,545,546,547) - is not very appropriate, but well I'm going to be a bit lenient about it now
19:44 _yu68: I think the 1/6 is showing drum roll well
19:47 Nardoxyribonucleic: Main drum beats falls on 1/4 while there is an extra beat at 01:11:110 -
19:47 Nardoxyribonucleic: That is why I would suggest 1/4
19:47 Nardoxyribonucleic: The rolls are not even snapped in 1/6
19:48 Nardoxyribonucleic: I would not suggest mapping that extra beat as the snaps would be too irregular to follow
19:49 Nardoxyribonucleic: Yet 1/6 would not be the best choice here, that is my stance
19:49 Nardoxyribonucleic: But well as I said, I'm more lenient about this pattern now.
19:50 Nardoxyribonucleic: So maziari may keep that in case he still strongly insists
19:51 _yu68: I see
19:52 Nardoxyribonucleic: Then about Virtuoso
19:53 Nardoxyribonucleic: What was the 1/8 pattern arrangement agreed by Raiden upon his bubble?
19:53 Nardoxyribonucleic: i.e. [https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6021558 this post]
19:57 Nardoxyribonucleic: I need to take that as reference to make comparison
19:58 _yu68: tasuke had said that he can qualify
19:58 Nardoxyribonucleic: He agreed with the current version or?
19:59 Nardoxyribonucleic: Agreed with adding 00:36:423 - 00:36:568 - d
19:59 Nardoxyribonucleic: which one?
19:59 _yu68: yes
19:59 _yu68: Absolutely impossible to ignore raiden's veto?
20:00 Nardoxyribonucleic: You need two other nominators' override
20:01 _yu68: It's Arrival and tasuke
20:02 Nardoxyribonucleic: So both of them agreed with the current version?
20:02 _yu68: Probably
20:03 _yu68: The map has not changed much since they agreed
20:03 _yu68: p/6126340
20:03 _yu68: and,
20:04 _yu68: https://twitter.com/tasuke912/status/877143037066878977
20:04 _yu68: tasuke is saying "If there is no one who QFs MANIERA, I can do it."
20:06 Nardoxyribonucleic: Okay. Before letting you guys move on, one more question.
20:09 Nardoxyribonucleic: 00:35:270 (328,330) - these two are actually similar spots with 00:36:423 - 00:36:568 - . I would like to know the reason of the difference, like why not using at 00:35:234 - and 00:35:378 - as well
20:10 Nardoxyribonucleic: I mean the use of 1/2
20:12 _yu68: as I said in forum, I mapped as 1/8 to make ease of hitting.
20:16 _yu68: ah
20:16 Nardoxyribonucleic: ?
20:17 _yu68: means "why am I using 1/2 there"?
20:17 Nardoxyribonucleic: I was asking why the representations at 00:35:234 (327,328,329,330) - and 00:36:387 (343,344) - are different
20:18 Nardoxyribonucleic: Like, why don't you use 1/2 at the former pair as well
20:22 _yu68: I deleted some 1/8s by raiden's veto, but I can't explain the difference in representations caused by them. I'm sorry
20:22 _yu68: They were the same 1/8 in the older version
20:24 Nardoxyribonucleic: I see. I wondered about the difference because structure-wise, deleting 00:35:270 (328,330) - as well would be more coherent.
20:25 Nardoxyribonucleic: And you talked about hand alternation previously, so I'm mentioning this now
20:26 _yu68: I guess that 1/8 and 1/2 confuse would make players confused
20:28 Nardoxyribonucleic: Hmm so, you think that 14 pairs of 1/8 are better than 6-2-6-2?
20:30 _yu68: I think that it is easy to decide how to hit, although the density is high
20:33 Nardoxyribonucleic: Alright. You may ask Arrival for rebubble and tasuke to requalify then.
20:33 _yu68: Could I add 1/8 to 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - ?
20:37 Nardoxyribonucleic: That is why I asked about the inconsistencies lol
20:38 _yu68: Thanks, and I apologize for my verrrrry poor English._.
20:38 Nardoxyribonucleic: Considering the factor of full alternation together, you have two choices of pattern: Either delete 00:35:270 (328,330) - or add 00:36:423 - 00:36:568 -
20:39 Nardoxyribonucleic: So I think you may choose between these two options regarding pattern consistency
20:40 _yu68: I understand.
20:41 Nardoxyribonucleic: Hmm, so you preferred the latter
20:41 _yu68: chose the later and updated the map
20:42 Nardoxyribonucleic: I guess that is all from my side at the moment. You may ask Arrival and tasuke now.
20:43 _yu68: Thanks so much :3