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R E A L T A L K (the state of this section)

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RockRoller
I forgot to mention that there may should be a consequence for people breaking the rules of the forum.
If somebody got said that its not allowed, says ok, my fault and deltet the post than every thing should be fine.

But the example with Wendy-Chan is god. If the person want to discuss about the rules and isnt insightful, then they should get a silence or something like that.
I hope you know what I what to say with this.
Lyawi
yup, we need something here. It should be someone who is familiar with skinning

Since I would like to moderate, I would do that, but who knows if it would ever happen tbh
Topic Starter
Garin
yeah its definitely a problem when the people who are the most active here over 30% of their posts are informing people they are breaking rules, its ridiculous.

and indeed Lyawi more moderation is definitely needed, hell i would be willing to do it and im sure a few others would too, its pretty obvious we need atleast 2 more mods dedicated to this section of the forum.
RockRoller
Where would we have to request mods for this forum
Faeture Request?
2 Mods for this Forum and 1 for completing the subforum would be really nice.
Lyawi

RockRoller wrote:

Where would we have to request mods for this forum
Faeture Request?
I don't think that there's a big need for posting it there. I posted it in a discord server with some mods, I also have private contact to some, so it shouldn't be a big problem that some of them notices Garin's post - the real question is if something will happen in the future. But feel free if you want to

RockRoller wrote:

2 Mods for this Forum and 1 for completing the subforum would be really nice.
I don't want to sound mean, but we're not who decides that, also those two would also moderate the Completed subforum (if needed, they just have to move a thread) then pretty sure
deadbeat
You sadly can't request for mods for here, mods will be internally discussed. We don't really take recommendations.

On to the matter at hand, I feel this is partly my fault, I took a massive step forward a while ago and then kinda dropped of the face of the earth with no one to really pick up where I left off. Skins just hanging around with no one to check them. Users acting as already mentioned, ignoring rules and getting overly defensive. I 100% agree that this place needs a dedicated mod or 2 and I would love to actually try put some effort into cleaning this place up again. I'm not in a position where I'm able to for about another week, but I'll try pick up my efforts in maintaining this place. The work that a lot of you output is amazing and you all deserve a place to post it without having to worry about drama and idiots.

Until I'm back home and able to do anything, feel free to shoot me a forum message and I'll be sure to try resolve issues as fast as I am able, but be aware I am technically on holiday, so I might take a while before acting(or straight away, depends on the time of the day)

EDIT: I am going to sleep now since it is midnight, so I'll be checking this thread when I wake up.
Topic Starter
Garin

deadbeat wrote:

You sadly can't request for mods for here, mods will be internally discussed. We don't really take recommendations.

On to the matter at hand, I feel this is partly my fault, I took a massive step forward a while ago and then kinda dropped of the face of the earth with no one to really pick up where I left off. Skins just hanging around with no one to check them. Users acting as already mentioned, ignoring rules and getting overly defensive. I 100% agree that this place needs a dedicated mod or 2 and I would love to actually try put some effort into cleaning this place up again. I'm not in a position where I'm able to for about another week, but I'll try pick up my efforts in maintaining this place. The work that a lot of you output is amazing and you all deserve a place to post it without having to worry about drama and idiots.

Until I'm back home and able to do anything, feel free to shoot me a forum message and I'll be sure to try resolve issues as fast as I am able, but be aware I am technically on holiday, so I might take a while before acting(or straight away, depends on the time of the day)
im glad you replied so quickly thanks.

honestly it sucks that you are the only mod here and its understandable if you have more important things to deal with i can respect that but i feel it's gotten way too out of hand as of late and something needs to be done.

it would be great if you could talk to the team about this, there's plenty of us willing to moderate this section.
deadbeat
We are semi aware of this, however you also have to understand that most of us aren't really forum moderators. Most of the GMT were added through chat moderation. I believe there are a few who are interested in cleaning this up, and hopefully we can make a move into this shortly. In the meantime, there are things you guys can do to help clean this place up. You could do any of the following
  1. Contact a mod if there a thread breaking rules
  2. Brainstorm ideas in here to improve the subforum (maybe some rules need amending, too many pinned thread etc.)
  3. Help us work through the completed skins thread and directly let us know if you feel something is worthy of being marked as completed


I'll have a look around here a bit in the morning after I've slept and stuff, but yeah. Thank you for showing interest in cleaning this place up, and hopefully we can do that at some point soon!

If you guys do need anything, I'm here to help, don't hesitate to contact me.
Lyawi
Thanks for taking care

Gonna message you later about the things of your last comment
Stefan
Another suggestion (related to these comments atturbo555 posted): Don't add more fuel than needed. Just post objectively that mixed skins or whatever people break are not allowed and don't start to react aggressively in any time. If people fail to understand you, then leave them be until a moderator appears.
RockRoller
Thanks for the answer.

Will try to look a little bit trough the completed skins waiting list.
atturbo555

Stefan wrote:

Another suggestion (related to these comments atturbo555 posted): Don't add more fuel than needed. Just post objectively that mixed skins or whatever people break are not allowed and don't start to react aggressively in any time. If people fail to understand you, then leave them be until a moderator appears.
OK, Thank for some information. Just i mark mixed skin forum. Sometime I may have some rage. I will start to send link of mixed skin to moderator.
MaximumTilt
Maybe make it clear that there are rules in this forum by making a post that clearly says in the title that the rules are in that post, people usually skip over skinning guidelines because it says guidelines while there are some rules in there (like that mixed skins aren't allowed)

Anyway I'm glad someone made this post, I was on the verge of making a post like this myself.
Geroyuni
Keeping as few pinned topics as possible helps with the visibility of the guidelines and other important threads. Many of the currently pinned threads can be removed from pin or merged. Position in the list also matters, the most important pins should go first.
OsuMe65
"Thread Nuking" is a method, that I myself use, (tho only deadbeat and the rest of the guys know what that means here) of marking down mixed stuff and I still use it as often as possible. is where the thread needs locking/sending it to the pit wasteland depending if the skin can be turned from mixed to OG or nah. Before, most of the threads "nuked" by myself are guaranteed locked/gone.
Might use this "system" once more.
Stefan
t/611278 I hope this helps at least for a bit, so the endless list of stickied threads stops from now.
Lyawi

Stefan wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/611278 I hope this helps at least for a bit, so the endless list of stickied threads stops from now.
Great
RockRoller

Stefan wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/611278 I hope this helps at least for a bit, so the endless list of stickied threads stops from now.
Looks good and should help.

In the Rules should stand that skins made with osu!skinner are mixed skins. Many people dont know that and post their on this site created skins in this forum.
Stefan
Generally the thread should include guidelines AND rules. Because somethings are minor while others (not posting mixed skins) are rules that exist since years. And because nobody in the world goes around and read two seperated threads.
h3oCharles
Finally deadbeat woke up :D

and yea, this forum is a mess indeed, all of the mixed skins threads should have either a different section or be trashed/locked

and deadbeat should watch this as well, despite if he watched it already or not

EDIT1: I think we should also trash all of the question threads since they are already solved and they only make a mess
and deadbeat should REAAALLY look at completed skins queue, there is too much for my taste
deadbeat

h3oCharles wrote:

and deadbeat should REAAALLY look at completed skins queue, there is too much for my taste

Why can't you?
Why can't anyone else?
Why just me?
It is because I'm the who made the thread and you think you can't help?
Or is no one else willing to actually put real effort into helping?
Threads like this help in the sense that it can wake up moderators, but why should we be the ones to do everything. Someone else could of easily made a new compendium of skins and I would of gladly pinned it. Someone else could of easily taken over the completed skins queue and I would of gladly help with mod actions.
Just because I/we are moderators, doesn't mean we have to do everything. Just remember that.
RockRoller

deadbeat wrote:

h3oCharles wrote:

and deadbeat should REAAALLY look at completed skins queue, there is too much for my taste
Why can't you?
Why can't anyone else?
Why just me?
It is because I'm the who made the thread and you think you can't help?
Or is no one else willing to actually put real effort into helping?
Threads like this help in the sense that it can wake up moderators, but why should we be the ones to do everything. Someone else could of easily made a new compendium of skins and I would of gladly pinned it. Someone else could of easily taken over the completed skins queue and I would of gladly help with mod actions.
Just because I/we are moderators, doesn't mean we have to do everything. Just remember that.
Please look at my PM. I wrote something about it. Depending on your answer, I would take care of/ help with the compendium.


Put sure, that you are a mod shouldnt mean that you need to do that.
h3oCharles
lol sorry, forgot to mention that I'm salty about this situation lately

I did list out some, however moving them about is another thing
deadbeat

Stefan wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/611278 I hope this helps at least for a bit, so the endless list of stickied threads stops from now.

Going back to this for a second. This does kind of help a little, but unless we remove other stickied threads or announcements, it's just another stickied thread/announcement. We need to actually start unpinning some of them so there's less clutter
Geroyuni

deadbeat wrote:

Stefan wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/611278 I hope this helps at least for a bit, so the endless list of stickied threads stops from now.

Going back to this for a second. This does kind of help a little, but unless we remove other stickied threads or announcements, it's just another stickied thread/announcement. We need to actually start unpinning some of them so there's less clutter


Atleast in the old site, a lot has been unpinned. Something's wrong with the new website and it isn't updating pins (nevermind I'm dumb)
I'm also unable to see a lot of images (http://i.imgur.com/fYJNDdB.png) and it's taking quite a while to load anything.
Stefan

deadbeat wrote:

Stefan wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/611278 I hope this helps at least for a bit, so the endless list of stickied threads stops from now.
Going back to this for a second. This does kind of help a little, but unless we remove other stickied threads or announcements, it's just another stickied thread/announcement. We need to actually start unpinning some of them so there's less clutter
I haven't unpinned anything yet since I wasn't sure what you guys consider as important to keep pinned and what not. Obviously I was expecting to unpin threads after this one has been put in announce.
Incomp
Hey, now that's some progress.
atturbo555
Now just I can mark nuke icon for mixed skin forum only. And I know every moderators can't viewing all forum. But I don't know who is skinning moderator.
deadbeat
Assume for the time being, that myself and Stefan will be doing it. There will be some others helping out every now and then though when needed.
autoteleology
Damn, I was actually just about to post about this. I've been thinking for a while about why the skinning forum is a mess (and how to improve it).

1. There needs to be a separate subforum (not just a thread) for questions and FAQs. Nobody wants to read a 260 page thread full of random crap that might be several years old, and it has a tendency to really clog up the main forum.

2. "Completed skins" and the "queue" is only a mediocre solution to the problem I believe it is trying to address, curation of the best stuff on the forum. Something being "complete" doesn't mean it is good. I think it would be cool to have some method of community involvement in curation like voting or something.

3. There are too many stickies (and most of the stickies are old as dirt)

4. We might want to consider having subforums for taiko, CTB, and osu!mania

5. We need some kind of way to make it as obvious as possible for newbies to the forum that mixed skins are not welcome. My experience at Head-Fi causes me to recall their way of impressing upon users the golden rules of the classifieds.
deadbeat
1: I'll have to get back to you on that
2: The completed skins forum was a way for people to be able to find skins that were actually complete as apposed to a lot of the other skins in here. There was never really meant to be a certain level of quality expected. We can change this though rather easily
3: This is planned to be changed.
4: I don't know if splitting everything up so much fixes things. It might, but I'm not sure. I'd need to stick around longer to get a better idea.
5: People should always read the rules. I've already changed the guidelines thread to Skinning Rules. Once the stickied and announcement threads get thinned out, it'll be a lot more visible. I see no reason to throw information in peoples face because they're too lazy to read.
autoteleology

deadbeat wrote:

5: People should always read the rules. I've already changed the guidelines thread to Skinning Rules. Once the stickied and announcement threads get thinned out, it'll be a lot more visible. I see no reason to throw information in peoples face because they're too lazy to read.
But, you see, that's the whole conundrum. The kind of person who posts mixed skins is someone who will never go look for the rules because they don't care. They have no investment in the community whatsoever, which is why they don't know the rules in the first place, and also makes it futile to punish them afterwards because they have nothing to lose. They stumble onto the forum, vomit up their low effort garbage, and leave forever when everyone yells at them. The forum is ultimately what suffers, and not the poster, and we can only do something about it after the damage is already done. Expecting responsibility from the irresponsible inevitably leads to an unwinnable game of whack-a-mole.

There are really only two ways to solve the problem as far as I can see.

1. Find some way to force them to read, or at least see the rules before they can post. This won't necessarily stop them from posting their crap anyway, but could help stem the tide. My initial suggestion is essentially a low-resource version of this, because there may not be any available feasible mechanisms to actually make someone prove they read the rules, but we can certainly put them somewhere impossible to miss.

2. Active moderation. Essentially force everyone to post their stuff into a queue for acceptance or denial before it is moved into the forum for everyone else to see.

I also retract my suggestion to separate game modes into subforums because on second thought, it would be really overcomplicated for no benefit, not to mention that game types are often bundled together in a single skin.
deadbeat

Philosofikal wrote:

deadbeat wrote:

5: People should always read the rules. I've already changed the guidelines thread to Skinning Rules. Once the stickied and announcement threads get thinned out, it'll be a lot more visible. I see no reason to throw information in peoples face because they're too lazy to read.

But, you see, that's the whole conundrum. The kind of person who posts mixed skins is someone who will never go look for the rules because they don't care. They have no investment in the community whatsoever, which is why they don't know the rules in the first place, and also makes it futile to punish them afterwards because they have nothing to lose. They stumble onto the forum, vomit up their low effort garbage, and leave forever when everyone yells at them.

But if they don't care about that, would they really care if signs were made more obvious? If people don't care about rules, they'd just ignore them even if they know about them. I feel like you'd be putting in a lot of effort for minimal return.
autoteleology
I think it would help with certain cases. Sometimes people will just assume there are no rules because they aren't impossible to miss.

The only alternative is to have someone manually approve skins added to the forum. I personally think that's the best solution anyways, as long as it's kept up with.
lit120
uhh, just dropping by as a former skinner here

for few years, i've seen a lot of shits going on and clearly, i was pissed and disappointed to see that shit going on here for few years that i've been involving here. mixed skins, nsfw, a lot of shit stuff going on here. for some reason imo, mostly from these cases are likely from a newbie skinners who doesn't even know about the rules here A LOT. i didn't know what to do anymore since i mostly don't even care about it anymore for me in nowadays

well, at least all this cases for me are really shit for some reason by them in nowadays. just passing by anyway
Topic Starter
Garin
damn so many replies D:

the changes made so far are great and im glad things are being done, rules are still a problem but i can see why its hard to enforce.. maybe something like a banner message on the new post page could help? directing to the rules or just stating "no mixed skins allowed your post will be deleted" or something along those lines.

also good idea with the nuke icon, shall be doing that myself from now on
deadbeat
I've had a bit of thought into the rules for this place, and have considered rewriting them to be a bit more detailed. I might also rewrite the OP for the completed skins queue to make things more clear what exactly I feel each skin needs to be moved. Hopefully this will allow others to help out when they feel like it.
O2MasterFX
This is a great fun to read the whole through.

I would like to point out that most newcomers might not see pinned topics beforehand, so make the title in ALL CAPS is helpful. It is stated that those topics had to be read before posting and may also reduce newly posted mixed skins. Just saying.
h3oCharles
---===:::{--[::( !!! SKINNING RULES !!! READ THEM BEFORE POSTING ANY SKINS!!! )::]--}:::===---
^ do sth like this, cancerously visible on purpose

also, what about throwing old-meta skins into a separate section? Like kawaiipandah's Kagamine Len Rin and Nightcore HD
Lyawi

h3oCharles wrote:

---===:::{--[::( !!! SKINNING RULES !!! READ THEM BEFORE POSTING ANY SKINS!!! )::]--}:::===---
^ do sth like this, cancerously visible on purpose
please no
Maybe the development could do something there, for each forum of course. Just an idea
when creating a thread a little pop-up "hey hey wait, did you already read the subforum rules?"
I don't know if they take ideas...and if so, then I don't know where. I doubt it belongs to FR in that case
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