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[New Rule] Do not extend mp3 length

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Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
I miss that old rule which says something like "If auto achieves more than 20M score, then the diff goes for approval"

Awh, now seriously, my opinions.
- as i said on another thread, 5:00 is 5:00 and not 4:59
- If your mp3 is 4:58, then nothing prevents you from finding GDs from other mappers.
- I believe it's really a bad idea to keep the same title for an edited mp3, it should be named with something like (Edit ver.) etc.
- Don't try to abuse the RC by editing the mp3 in order to fit length rule, you're being disrespectful to a lot of people, and not only the artist.
- If you're lazy to make a full mapset, then quit mapping for rank, and don't say you're a good mapper.
- Enjoy mapping.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Doing this won't encourage people to stop being "lazy"; it'll encourage them to be even more "lazy" by not mapping the song at all. People who extend the .mp3 didn't have the intention or will to deal with a full spread in the first place. That's why they extended the .mp3.

Does it suck? Yes, but no matter how much you try to force people to not be "lazy", the amount of time they decide to spend on mapping is up to them. Yes, getting something ranked isn't a right, but actively making it harder for people to enjoy this aspect of mapping doesn't really help in the long run.

Also where does the line between extended and remix end? Both are edits to the original song. What if I decide to remix a 4:50 minute song into something more than just an extended version, resulting it becoming 5:10, solely for the sake of the ranking criteria. I've now just artificially increased the length of the song and "shitted on" (not that I'm against remixes btw) the artists original intentions. This is basically why you don't want extended versions, but how is this any different from say, mapping an asterisk remix of a song, made by someone else?

Also, not that I've looked, but in general, how often does a not well known mapper get a full spread 4:55~ minute song actually ranked? Yes, it's doable, but remember many of you have the connections and name recognition as well. It's not always that easy.

Edit:
Also, what about themed marathon compilations? Would maps like this be unrankable as well? You are editing portions of the song, with fade in and outs and basically mashing them together until you're above the approval time limit.
Last edited by CXu , edited 1 time in total.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion

CXu wrote:

Also, not that I've looked, but in general, how often does a not well known mapper get a full spread 4:55~ minute song actually ranked? Yes, it's doable, but remember many of you have the connections and name recognition as well. It's not always that easy.
This is especially relevant for game modes other than Standard where even if you are a well known or popular mapper, there might not be enough modders willing to even take a look at the set in the first place.

We don't have a hard and fast rule on people cutting songs down to length; it's down to the BN/QAT (and ultimately, the community's) discretion as to what constitutes a "good" cut - why should this be any different for an extend? If it's used sensibly and is actually done well, I don't have an issue with it.
-kevincela-
Elite Mapper
2,795 posts
Joined February 2010
-kevincela-

JBHyperion wrote:

We don't have a hard and fast rule on people cutting songs down to length; it's down to the BN/QAT (and ultimately, the community's) discretion as to what constitutes a "good" cut - why should this be any different for an extend? If it's used sensibly and is actually done well, I don't have an issue with it.
I definitely agree with this point of view, most of the extends I've seen haven't been that dramatic at all and I can't understand why 4:58 - 4:59 songs can't get extended to 5:00 either. The whole point of the "lazy mapper" also seems kinda weak, I wouldn't exactly call someone who is already willing to map an entire extra diff out of a 5 minutes song "lazy" considering that mapping other 4 diffs out of it in some cases is really overkill, and while one can ask for GDs I don't know how many mappers out there would enjoy mapping a 5:00 minutes E/N/H, unless they really like the song. And also excluding all of this, as CXu said, getting a mod to a full spread 4:55 song (and I'd say also MODDING it for who wants to mod it) is definitely harder than a single diff, if I can't find mods for a 2:00 song mapset how am I supposed to do it for a 4:55 song, especially now that there are fewer BNs than before?

At best I'd include this as a guideline and use common sense for the rest, I don't see much usefulness in having this set as rule
Kite
osu! Alumni
1,372 posts
Joined July 2009
Kite

CXu wrote:

Doing this won't encourage people to stop being "lazy"; it'll encourage them to be even more "lazy" by not mapping the song at all. People who extend the .mp3 didn't have the intention or will to deal with a full spread in the first place. That's why they extended the .mp3.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I still disagree with this, as long as it's not clearly noticable
If extensions are really clear (like repeating certain parts then it should be disallowed
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,061 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
riffy
Good thing is that we have the discussion started, but as I read through I think of a guideline more and more as this still has to be present somewhere in a written form but the points you guys bring are really important and should be minded. Let's consider it from that perspective? That'd make a good compromise, I believe.
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,846 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
are you implying its better to cut the mp3 instead?

i would disagree

even though i personally wouldn't extend the mp3 in most cases anyway (i think i did it once cuz the drain time was fking 4:59 or something).
as cxu said, this wouldn't encourage people to not be lazy.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
I think it's really silly that we place the blame of "lazy" upon the most hypothetical little shit instead of the actual style in which one maps in.

There's a difference between "lazy" and making adjustments to not have to do loads of pointless extra work that will honestly make things HARDER in the end (ie. people are less likely to mod a 4:55 full spread map compared to a 5:00 approval 1 diff map).

Laziness is mapping a 5 minute song and using a shitload of copy-paste when there's repeated patterns because you don't feel like creating original ideas for a piece (not to say that there aren't reasonable places to copy-paste, but there are many times when people will use it as a lazy tool instead of as a compositional additive.)

A proper adjustment to adhere to rules and make the map more appealing is looping a section (especially a section that could be considered a vamp section) to make the drain time long enough to make things work within a certain medium. Especially if the song is reasonably close enough to make said adjustments.

Let's look at this for example



Currently working on this map (or technically, finishing it, since I started this map my freshman year of college).

So the mp3 I have is about this time, like, 4:55. But I know that it'll be a huge struggle to find willing modders to look at a 4:30 (assuming I use breaks) drain time map with a full spread, especially since my style of mapping makes creating a full spread that doesn't get complaints REALLY annoying in rap music (ie. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/113254 ). So I slowed down the mp3 by like 5 BPM. Oh no. But the map is still full of fresh original content and plays nicely, which SHOULD, in a perfect world, be the most important thing.

I think the notion that this would affect a composer's artistic integrity is actually a good point. However, cut versions are explicit re-interpretations of the song, some of which are done without the composers consent. Which doesn't neccessarily justify it, but it is one of the realities that we have to ask "Are we going to use this point only when it is most convenient to my personal beliefs, or will we apply it to EVERY instance?"
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
I wholeheartedly support this. It's just low-effort content to extend it for the sake of approval, put more effort in your maps.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
kinda funny that the mapper is lazy if he extends a 4:50 to 5:00 but the 90% of modders that will likely never check a 4:50 full set aren't mentioned xd
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden

OzzyOzrock wrote:

kinda funny that the mapper is lazy if he extends a 4:50 to 5:00 but the 90% of modders that will likely never check a 4:50 full set aren't mentioned xd
^ this ^


I'd dare to say that most mappers don't want to map 3+ minute long sets because of how incredibly difficult finding modders (let alone BNs) for those long sets are.

Regarding the topic, I think I'll stay neutral on this. None of the arguments has convinced me so far.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani

Stefan wrote:

I wholeheartedly support this. It's just low-effort content to extend it for the sake of approval, put more effort in your maps.
how about we put effort into making good maps and not just some arbitrary "omg u made this thing play two times instead of one time!!!!"

If a mapper is able to take 5 minutes of content and make it great, it's a great map. Who gives a fuck if the mp3 is edited, it's a good map regardless.

Shit maps don't come from edited mp3s, shit maps come from shit mappers and mappers who don't give two fucks about providing good content.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
I'm so glad this become a public discussion because it was nearly unanimous in the BN forums.

This should just be a guideline at most because you shouldn't discourage or prevent someone from ranking a song on the pretext that they are lazy. Otherwise, people are just going to call mappers who make a single diff in an 8 difficulty-spread for a 45 second song "lazy" and try to prevent them from getting their set ranked too.

Cutting/extending/looping mp3's may be considered lazy but laziness has nothing to do with mapping quality. You can't say that a map is really low quality and poorly mapped just because the mapper didnt make a full set. That makes no sense.

Make it a guideline so poorly extended mp3's have the potential to be disqualified. I think this is what people may have trouble with. Some edits are great, and unless mentioned, you wouldn't even know it was an edit. But others may seem forced and/or awkward because the mp3 editing was poorly done. Songs often operate on a 16 measure system for verse/chorus sections (or 32 measures, etc... multiples). I've seen mp3's that loop 4 measures over again, creating a 20 measure chorus, or 20 measure verse section. For me, this creates a rhythmic imbalance and I would be fine if maps got disqualified under this context.

I think it's fine to make this a guideline. But as a rule, it's not only unnecessary, but difficult to enforce too. Mappers are not obligated to tell you they extended the mp3. They can always lie and tell you this is the original mp3. This presents a new job for QAT's which is to find another original source for the mp3, and timing it independently to make sure it is actually over 5 minutes.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani

Monstrata wrote:

I'm so glad this become a public discussion because it was nearly unanimous in the BN forums.
This so much.

I got a PM from like 3 BNs being like "you should comment on this" and then they're like "oh wait fuck lmfao"

I think ALL discussions regarding the ranking criteria should be done through this forum. It's kind of silly to exclude such a large part of the community in a discussion of how things should be done. Especially because applications have generally been closed off for a VERY long time, the BN is kind of stuck with a lot of old voices, and no new voices are allowed to come in and contribute new perspectives to the discussions that would happen there.

Although that doesn't stop rules from just like, kinda becoming rules from QAT without ever actually being discussed or even put in the ranking criteria, but uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah. Baby steps.
Electoz
Beatmap Nominator
1,895 posts
Joined May 2015
Electoz

CXu wrote:

Also, not that I've looked, but in general, how often does a not well known mapper get a full spread 4:55~ minute song actually ranked? Yes, it's doable, but remember many of you have the connections and name recognition as well. It's not always that easy.
This.
Tbh finding modders is already hard if you aren't popular. So finding a modder for such a drain time is definitely out of question.
I think you can cut/edit the mp3 if you can provide valid reasons, like to reach 5 mins while your song is just a few seconds away, it's a marathon song with various artists, looping game's soundtracks, etc.
As for about being disrespectful towards artists. As long as it's not sth like looping the entire chorus or something that is noticable by people who know the song, I think it's still fine because people would prefer listening to the songs from original ones.
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Evening
Sounds like i'm repeating what most people have to say here but here it is again ha!

Think this discussion is kind of swaying into the map actually being good etc. which is fine but i don't think is what Bakari is trying to get at here

The main idea of this rule is probably just to give more accessibility for players at the lower-caliber to be able to play 5-minute marathons so I'll just give my onions about this

First off I'd like to say that there is not a lot of tracks that are 5min+ long strictly and also support the idea of having it as a very easy difficulty, talking about 1*-3.5*, and even then, making those maps might be (SUBJECTIVE OPINION INCOMING!!) quite boring (haha)

Secondly, if you're planning to cut off at 5min, music at the 4:30-4:59:999 mark (there is actually a map that is 4:59:999 drain time) will probably never be mapped for rank, people in this discussion have already stated that getting mods at this length is just ridiculously hard, and I'm pretty sure i'll get rebutted by people with,"oh my god just be patient and work harder", but not really, most people will just go "yea fuck this, I'll map this just for graveyard xp"

Thirdly, getting a full set for a 4:30 - 4:59:999 long song is pretty uguuuuuuuuuuuu (hard/difficult), think it's fine if you can ask for GDs but it is harder than getting mods as i have mentioned, comparing this to a single difficulty marathon it's a huge jump that only a few very dedicated people can overcome (and actually can be arsed to rank).

Fourthly, mappers that intend to map these extended songs won't go like "hey you know what, i should map/get gds for a full spread just for beginners xD"

In conclusion, I personally feel like you're just going to cut off potential rankable extended maps instead of promoting the usage of maps that cater to the beginners if this were to pass as a rule. I think promoting the creation of easier maps through other means would be better, but as of now I think this will just lower the amount of potentially harder and longer maps
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
Hmm.

The argument that modifying the mp3 is disrespectful to the artist has bothered me for a long time. It simply doesn't make sense. Music is art, in theory everyone has the right to modify it the way they think it fits (for example by doing remixes). In order to release such a modification in public the artist would need to allow you to, that's for sure. But how many of the mappers do ask artists for permission to map their songs at the first place? Atleast 99% do not. So there is no reason to forbid making edits to mp3s from that point of view.
Music doesn't get worse when a fading sound at the end is stretched (if it's done right). It doesn't even get worse if you loop a whole section, again, if it's done right.

If you played any rhythm game that is not community based, you will notice that most of the time the songs are edits / cuts of the original songs (except when the songs are composed specifically for that game). This is a GAME, maps are supposed to be fun to play, we just use the songs as a base to provide a fun experience for the players. Doing sensible modifications for the sake of the map shouldn't be an issue at all, in that case.

Now about lazyness: The approval category exists only for one reason: Because (most) mappers are 'lazy'. You could in theory map a full spread for every song. So why does this rule exist? Because mappers don't want to bother spending so many days mapping one song, when it's simply not worth the effort (for most). So why do people extend / cut songs? Because of the exact same reason. Mapping a full spread for a 4:50 song is similary tedious to mapping a full spread for a 5:10 song. It doesn't feel worth the effort.

I feel dumb to say this, but currently we have a lot of full spreads ranked, the rate of approval is fairly low in comparison. Why disallow those maps to be ranked then? Just let the mappers and players have fun with them, it's all good. In theory, the lack of a rule preventing mp3 extends could be abused and we could only have Approved mapsets, but it's not the case and will never be the case, because there are some mappers who like to put less effort in their maps, and some mappers who like to put more efforts in their maps.

tl;dr good old 'please enjoy game' :3
Kin
2,622 posts
Joined August 2010
Kin
TLDR ;
if it's add as a rule, then should we also forbid cut mp3 ?
cut or extend are done for the same reason. If we want to remove one, why not both ?
puxtu
2,926 posts
Joined August 2013
puxtu
meanwhile there's blocko who ranked a mapset with 3 hours total drain time....
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-
I think that it's worth noting that there are situations where most people might not notice that a song has been modified. I like to be the one to play devil's advocate here, but if you have a low tempo song that people are generally not familiar with, a beatmapper can easily drop the BPM by an a negligible amount and work things in their favor.

Devil's advocate: let's take a 100 BPM song that runs for 122 measures, which comes out to a length of 4:52.8 seconds, and assume that the first sound begins right at the start of the song at 0.000 (unlikely, but it's to make a point). "Christ, this song is really long, and I'm only short 7.2 seconds from it being a marathon." All I would have to do, is literally drop the BPM by 3 in the process of audio editing to make the song clear the 5 minute mark. If a person is unfamiliar with the song that is being mapped, they would never know the difference, because a 3 BPM difference is not going to cause any sort of noticeable time-stretching/audio artifacting. The odds of someone going to source that song out, find it, and hand sync it up to verify the tempo are extremely low.

Do not get me wrong at all: I do think a rule like this should be in place, but... the measure of which you do it needs to be a bit better than "oh you're 0.1 seconds short, get a bunch of GDs", because that is ridiculous and can easily be circumvented with no effort. Put some more forethought into this suggestion - otherwise, you will solve nothing.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

puxtu wrote:

meanwhile there's blocko who ranked a mapset with 3 hours total drain time....
Wanted to mention. :p
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

Stefan wrote:

puxtu wrote:

meanwhile there's blocko who ranked a mapset with 3 hours total drain time....
Wanted to mention. :p
Well, yes. And? I mean, good for him that he got a 3 hour total drain time map ranked, and no one is saying it's impossible to map full spreads for 5min+ songs. Most people had to do that when the approval limit was at 6min. Still, just because it's possible to do it, you wouldn't put the ranked drain rate minimum at 3 hours, right? Most people don't have the necessary time to stick with first mapping a full spread, and then going through the ranking process afterwards, which for many mappers, especially newer ones, could take well over a year or more. And for many the end result would just be the map ending up in graveyard anyway. For most people, such a time commitment just isn't really feasible. Also note that Blocko was a BN and QAT during the latter half of the maps life in pending.

And for the record, I'm not trying to take away from the dedication in that mapset. I'm just trying to point out that it's not something you should expect from an average mapper.
Arzenvald
4,058 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
blocko is not average mapper @.@
back to the topic huehue.. as for now i can't either agree or disagree to put this as the part of 'rule', many opposite stuff that i agree and i disagree at once..
and again, everything depends to the BN who checks the map whether its good to go with the extended duration or not.. as for me, i'd rather approve a mapset that clearly has duration over 5mins, rather than picking a mapset with edited / extended mp3, depends on the situation...
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Okay then.

Natsu wrote:

  1. Extending the mp3 its disrespectful for the artist It sounds weird to say it's disrespectful towards the artist because almost no one probably will know or being offended if someone edit their work - unless it's someone from the community and being really sensible. I get what you mean, although it's not directly what's bad in extending the mp3 file.
  2. Extending the song its just a way to foolish the marathon length requirement Fully agree with this point and why I am against this method.
  3. I don't have time to make a full spread set its not an excuse, there are alot of mappers willing to map 1 diff for you Although some people lack on time, it's true you can ask other mappers and/or just stick longer on your project. No one will delete your work if you take longer than two months.
  4. Mods aren't hard to get, do M4M is super easy or ask modders to mod just certain diffs in your set. Basically the same I said in the last point but for modding instead.
  5. There is not reasonable amount of time, any edit to the mp3 in case is a bad idea, because this promote the abusing of the system, first people started with 1 or 3 secs, now is the entire copy of sections, to avoid such cases we need a hard rule for this. Yep.

Deimos wrote:

please, don't come up with this dump "it's disrespectful to the artist", how many of you and how often did you ask the artists or owner for permission to use their content in osu? maybe 0.1%? or much lower
Yeah, that's why I said it's unlikely this point which makes extension just bad.

Mahogany wrote:

- When you would say "It's inaccessible for new players" then that's a problem with marathon maps as a whole. I don't feel this is a legitimate point unless you disallow marathon single-diff ranking and require full spread for all maps, because otherwise how would that even be fair? In both cases the mapper has done the same (similar) amount of work, yet you're going do disregard what one of them has done purely based on the song they've chosen to use, while the other gets a free pass?
There are difference if the song you've mapped is legitimate above five minutes long or just poorly extended to suit the criteria. Of course you just cannot create for every map/song a full spread - starting from Easy until Expert (since Expert Difficulties became to something casual today) - but that's the wrong way we're going to allow people manipulating the song file (extending, looping, slowing the BPM) just because they decided to put less time and effort in their "work" - if you want to call it like that. Also, "It's inaccessible for new players" is a legitimate point, and you wouldn't really call a five minute map as marathon by common sense, do you?

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I miss that old rule which says something like "If auto achieves more than 20M score, then the diff goes for approval"
I honestly do that as well, I'd love to have something like this for today. No idea currently how we could achieve this.

CXu wrote:

Doing this won't encourage people to stop being "lazy"; it'll encourage them to be even more "lazy" by not mapping the song at all. People who extend the .mp3 didn't have the intention or will to deal with a full spread in the first place. That's why they extended the .mp3.
It's not like osu! will have a loss because said mapper rejects to add more difficulties in their set.

CXu wrote:

Does it suck? Yes, but no matter how much you try to force people to not be "lazy", the amount of time they decide to spend on mapping is up to them. Yes, getting something ranked isn't a right, but actively making it harder for people to enjoy this aspect of mapping doesn't really help in the long run.
How would you call it then instead of "right"? Of course it's up to the mapper and like said, they basically got all the time left they want in osu!, their maps won't disappear or deleted and they can keep working whenever their time allows it. Obviously it will takes longer for some but do we really need to leave out a full spread for a "normal" song (not something like actual marathon tracks) just because they can't spend enough time? There are enough people with jobs and other occupations which still finds to take care of their sets to get mods and even getting it ranked.

CXu wrote:

Also, not that I've looked, but in general, how often does a not well known mapper get a full spread 4:55~ minute song actually ranked? Yes, it's doable, but remember many of you have the connections and name recognition as well. It's not always that easy.
As much I agree newer mapper got it harder than older mappers we need to draw a "hard line" for this.

CXu wrote:

Edit:
Also, what about themed marathon compilations? Would maps like this be unrankable as well? You are editing portions of the song, with fade in and outs and basically mashing them together until you're above the approval time limit.
They were not a thing until 2013 when suddenly everyone started to map compilations. But I get what you mean and I see the problem behind.

CXu wrote:

Also note that Blocko was a BN and QAT during the latter half of the maps life in pending.
That's an awful excuse, that's not related to the position.

Concluding,

  1. if you lack on time soooo much: ask friends for help. The point you don't have time to map more difficulties doesn't suits with the fact you need to search for mods (or even need to mod theirself via M4M), need to reply, take care what others suggested and finally catching a BN. And these things do not consume time? please.
  2. we shouldn't encourage other mappers to follow this trend by extending songs to leave out two-three difficulties. That Easy difficulties gets rarely played is an invalid argument and people should get rid off from this nonsense. as well, you're not forced to map an Easy difficulty - unless your normal is uncommon difficult to play as lowest difficulty.
  3. I also don't see why many approved songs (from 2014 until now) don't deserve at least a Normal and Hard Difficulty while the songs are rather simple compared to more complex songs.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

Stefan wrote:

CXu wrote:

Doing this won't encourage people to stop being "lazy"; it'll encourage them to be even more "lazy" by not mapping the song at all. People who extend the .mp3 didn't have the intention or will to deal with a full spread in the first place. That's why they extended the .mp3.
It's not like osu! will have a loss because said mapper rejects to add more difficulties in their set. - yea, we just wouldn't have all the ranked maps that are made by extending the .mp3 with a few seconds. How do you claim that as "not a loss"? because you personally don't like it? It is certainly a loss for every player who enjoyed those maps.

CXu wrote:

Does it suck? Yes, but no matter how much you try to force people to not be "lazy", the amount of time they decide to spend on mapping is up to them. Yes, getting something ranked isn't a right, but actively making it harder for people to enjoy this aspect of mapping doesn't really help in the long run.
How would you call it then instead of "right"? Of course it's up to the mapper and like said, they basically got all the time left they want in osu!, their maps won't disappear or deleted and they can keep working whenever their time allows it. Obviously it will takes longer for some but do we really need to leave out a full spread for a "normal" song (not something like actual marathon tracks) just because they can't spend enough time? There are enough people with jobs and other occupations which still finds to take care of their sets to get mods and even getting it ranked. - I wouldn't call it a privilege? No map has a right to be ranked. All I'm saying is that laziness should not be something we try to measure when judging a map for its qualities. It's completely arbitrary where we draw the line between laziness. Yea, it's done to fit the rules, but so is getting GDs for your tv size mapset. Mappers are lazy, and do lazy things to fit the ranking criteria, no matter how much you like it or not. You can add this as a rule, and I'll say my extended version is a remix. How do you deal with that?

CXu wrote:

Also, not that I've looked, but in general, how often does a not well known mapper get a full spread 4:55~ minute song actually ranked? Yes, it's doable, but remember many of you have the connections and name recognition as well. It's not always that easy.
As much I agree newer mapper got it harder than older mappers we need to draw a "hard line" for this. - We already have a hard line though: 5 minutes go as marathon, while below go as mapsets.

CXu wrote:

Edit:
Also, what about themed marathon compilations? Would maps like this be unrankable as well? You are editing portions of the song, with fade in and outs and basically mashing them together until you're above the approval time limit.
They were not a thing until 2013 when suddenly everyone started to map compilations. But I get what you mean and I see the problem behind.

CXu wrote:

Also note that Blocko was a BN and QAT during the latter half of the maps life in pending.
That's an awful excuse, that's not related to the position. - Do you really think a mapper with no ranked maps have it just as easy as someone with name recognition to get mods? Would you really m4m their 4:55min song if they have 0 ranked maps? And even if you did, do you really think the majority of modders would? There is a huge difference even between having 0 and 1 ranked map, let alone a title such as BN/QAT. Many modders have most certainly at some point or another opened the profile of a player requesting for mod, checked how many maps they have ranked, and then decided on whether to spend the time or not. Having 1 ranked map gives a modder a guarantee that they at least have some experience, while 0 ranked maps is a complete wildcard many people most likely wouldn't want to bet on. How much influence his title had in the end, I don't know, but I can assure you it's not zero.
Deimos
802 posts
Joined April 2012
Deimos
-rewritten-

osu players, non known/famous artists, must not be disallowed to modify songs just for personal reasons, forbidding any kinds of extended songs has absolutely nothing to do with assuring quality, it can be done right and yes, it can be done wrong, it's the BN's job to assure quality, such rule addition is just going to limit creativity and new creations

it's similar to controverse mapping styles, some like it some don't, some like the modified song version some don't, it's completely subjective and nowhere objective, the extended song version lacks in quality? then simply don't bubble/rank it

as said before, the poorly excuse to "protect" the artists makes no sense and has no place here, how many of you disrespected the artists for using their original content in osu without their permission? how many of you disrespected the artists for using a modified song version? if extending a song is "disrespectful", then shorting/cutting is as well, how about we add a rule to protect the artists so every mapper has to provide a proof that they are allowed to use their content in osu? won't end that well for you/the community, right?

no one of you is forced to only map one diff for 5min+ songs, but most of you are still doing it, why? too time-consuming? finding modders is too toublesome? I also think that some mappers here forgot why they started mapping beatmaps generally, did you map for fun or to distinguish oneself? mapping is not a fucking job, it's a hobby where you spent your freetime for creating fun and playable beatmaps to be played by the community and not a system to measure the quality of you as mapper or the beatmap

ranking criteria don't exist to protect the mapper's ego just because they can't tank/dislike it that some unknown/average/known mappers aren't spending as much time, putting as much effort and engagement into mapping as they do and/or by taking shortcuts to get their beatmaps ranked/approved, this will solely encourage them to map half-assed difficulties to meet the minimum requirement or send their current maps to graveyard

this whole rule addition doesn't feel right, not in its current state
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
I have to respectfully disagree with Natsu and Stefan

Stefan wrote:

Okay then.

Natsu wrote:

  1. Extending the song its just a way to foolish the marathon length requirement Fully agree with this point and why I am against this method. The approval category is literally a category for lazy mappers to rank their maps. You could have mapped a full spread for your 15 minute song, but you chose not to, and instead only made one difficulty for approval. My argument isn't about length, but the fact that the purpose of the approval category is to give mappers the option not to map a full set. Extending the mp3 is just another technique mappers can use to take advantage of the approval category. It doesn't really make sense to disapprove of laziness when the Approval section is catered to lazy mappers. (Imagine if there was no Approval category and all songs required a full spread. Many songs would never see the light of day in the ranked section.)
  2. I don't have time to make a full spread set its not an excuse, there are alot of mappers willing to map 1 diff for you Although some people lack on time, it's true you can ask other mappers and/or just stick longer on your project. No one will delete your work if you take longer than two months. I really feel this is only relevant to established mappers, and not the majority of the osu! playerbase that are new to mapping, or only have few ranked maps. Yes, there are people who like to make GD's but I think this is a bit of an overstatement. Basically "easier said than done". Generally people prefer to make GD"s for established mappers because its much more likely that the mapset will eventually become ranked.
  3. Mods aren't hard to get, do M4M is super easy or ask modders to mod just certain diffs in your set. Basically the same I said in the last point but for modding instead. I can somewhat agree to this. Finding mods lies in the mapper's motivation to improve their maps and also their mapping capabilities. Extending the mp3 length definitely helps relieve stress in finding mods though because you aren't requesting as much from other modders, and in m4m's you don't feel like you need to scrutinize every tiniest detail so you don't feel bad m4m'ing your 25 minute drain time set with a 4 minute tv-size set. That said though, I also think this is "easier said than done", especially if you are a known mapper in the community because your mods are worth more. This is infinitely more true if you are a BN because everyone will want to m4m with you anyways. I think this is an overstatement too, and doesn't consider enough, the trouble that new/newer mappers face in trying to find mods and get BN's to check their sets.
  4. There is not reasonable amount of time, any edit to the mp3 in case is a bad idea, because this promote the abusing of the system, first people started with 1 or 3 secs, now is the entire copy of sections, to avoid such cases we need a hard rule for this. Yep. I can't see how abusing the system is in any way negative to anyone other than the artist, and reading the discussion it seems people aren't even convinced editing/extending the mp3 is any more disrespectful to the artist than using and distributing their work without express permission. Abuse implies that there is a negative consequence, and I cannot see that here. You may say "well that means I could technically loop this 10 second song 30 times and it could technically go for approval". Stuff like this is would be precisely why mp3 editing should be handled case-by-case by the BN's and QAT's involved. And anything that needs to be handled case-by-case cannot be an objective rule.
Prevent someone from ranking their map if you believe that the quality they are trying to publish onto the official osu! beatmap listings is not acceptable. This can mean a low quality edit, or low quality mapping. Anything that says "this map is not a good contribution to the ranked section in its current state". Do not, however say "this mapper is lazy, so his/her contribution should not join the official beatmap listings". You might as well say "this mapper is ugly/blonde/smells bad/is a TSM fan, so his/her contribution should not join the official beatmap listings". Like those other reasons, laziness, a trait of the mapper, is not an adequate reason for preventing maps from being ranked. The character of the mapper shouldn't be considered when judging a map's rankability.
Koiyuki
Beatmap Nominator
2,539 posts
Joined March 2013
Koiyuki
Interesting.

I dont even care why they extend or cut the song, I only care about quality.
imo you are just complicating an easy problem. Good map, pass; Bad map, bye.
Do players care about the mp3? No. They cares about gameplay(just means quality) and pp.
Mint
1,611 posts
Joined February 2013
Mint
Hmm, agree with Yuki here. If the map is good enough, it's okay to me.

But I think common sense can be applied to most cases (with some exceptions), if it's a good cut that no one will really notice it's totally fine by me as long as the map is good enough,
but if it's really abused, like repeating big parts of the song or looping stuff too many times (when it gets really noticeable), then I think it's okay to disqualify for this.

I don't think you can expect a lot from mappers to go from a set consisting of 5 minutes drain time, to 4 * 5 minutes of drain time...

Enforcing this rule will only cause discomfort to many people, leading to lower quality maps, as you're basically forcing someone to map something he/she doesn't want to map at all.

Also, I think disrespecting the artist is done so many times already now... copyright can also be seen as disrespect imo... and I guess 99% of the ranked beatmaps never got permission from the artist. I can definitely understand where this is coming from, but I don't think enforcing this will do any better to be honest ._.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
I find it amusing that people think copy paste is grounds for disqualification.

As to the main topic, it's not disrespectful and it's very lazy in appearance. As long as the mapper doesn't care and people still support the set, who cares? It meets the criteria we have established and I don't see anything particularly convincing to disallow remixing a song regardless how slight it may be.
Konomi_old_1
Konomi_old_1

Minakami Yuki wrote:

Interesting.

I dont even care why they extend or cut the song, I only care about quality.
imo you are just complicating an easy problem. Good map, pass; Bad map, bye.
Do players care about the mp3? No. They cares about gameplay(just means quality) and pp.
it's true
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

Stefan wrote:

Mahogany wrote:

- When you would say "It's inaccessible for new players" then that's a problem with marathon maps as a whole. I don't feel this is a legitimate point unless you disallow marathon single-diff ranking and require full spread for all maps, because otherwise how would that even be fair? In both cases the mapper has done the same (similar) amount of work, yet you're going do disregard what one of them has done purely based on the song they've chosen to use, while the other gets a free pass?
There are difference if the song you've mapped is legitimate above five minutes long or just poorly extended to suit the criteria. Of course you just cannot create for every map/song a full spread - starting from Easy until Expert (since Expert Difficulties became to something casual today) - but that's the wrong way we're going to allow people manipulating the song file (extending, looping, slowing the BPM) just because they decided to put less time and effort in their "work" - if you want to call it like that. Also, "It's inaccessible for new players" is a legitimate point, and you wouldn't really call a five minute map as marathon by common sense, do you?
In terms of mapping, I see no difference in the effort placed towards the mapping of a naturally 5m+ map, and the effort placed in mapping a song extended to be 5m+. The mapper is still doing functionally the same amount of work, if all other factors are considered equal. I honestly can see no difference between the two.

And this whole idea of "putting less time and effort into their work" I can't agree with. If the mapper has only a single difficulty to focus on, they're able to dedicate more time towards this single difficulty, and make it much more entertaining to play, and a better map overall. Just because there appears to be less strictly necessary work on the surface, doesn't mean the mapper doesn't put more work than this bare minimum. On the other hand, if a mapper has 5+ difficulties to look through, quality of each individual map is going to suffer significantly.

I also don't think disallowing extensions will encourage mappers to create full spreads. Rather, I think it will do the opposite and drive mappers away from mapping these songs. Why map a full spread for one song you like, when you could just forget about it and map an approval for a different song that is over 5 minutes? I can't see this new rule helping anything in any way.

"It's inaccessible for new players" is definitely a legitimate point. But that's exactly why I was arguing against this notion. I don't believe there's any real difference between a naturally 5m map and an extended 5m map, so I was making a statement that the only way to be fair in this ruling would be to either continue to allow extended songs to go for approval, or to remove the approval category entirely and require every map have a full spread.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible

Minakami Yuki wrote:

Interesting.

I dont even care why they extend or cut the song, I only care about quality.
imo you are just complicating an easy problem. Good map, pass; Bad map, bye.
Do players care about the mp3? No. They cares about gameplay(just means quality) and pp.
Basically this (except the PP part). Couldn't express it better; why not actually starting to care about quality instead of completely putting off useless rules?

Respectfully disagreeing, sorry, but this is not needed. I'm always surprised how people go crazy about stuff they literally don't have to care about (song length, or diff names).
captin1
osu! Alumni
2,607 posts
Joined February 2011
captin1
100% agree with monstrata that extended edits that are blatant and poorly done should be prevented, but very minor extending (longer fade out) should be fine.

enforce quality, not rules
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
The thread is more about questioning the approval RC itself. It's still the very old problem that you have to make a cut somewhere and that people that are close to the cut but don't quite reach it will naturally search for some way to still make it.
Personally I dislike plain repeats that add nothing new and there's no other way to extend your mp3 by an amount that is significant enough to push your song over 5min when it wasn't really close to that value before.
Then again, extending a song by 5s with a longer spinner is not particularly positive in terms of quality either...In fact there is no positive way to extend the song as the only gain is that the map goes as a marathon and you got less work to do. If it would be positive in itself we would see it regardless of maplength right...?

People should be more courageous to cut stuff down instead as most 4:30 songs have a lot of repeating parts already. Almost no song is a bohemian rhapsody with 3 completely individual parts and no repitition. That's an easier way to reduce workload if reducing workload is the mapper's aim and a set with 4 3min diffs is already 6min shorter compared to an original 4:30 version and you don't cheat on worse players by only mapping your 5,5* extra-diff that is accessible by about 10% of the active playerbase.
And a technically clean cut is not harder to do than a clean extension...

That being said, approval maps aren't the best way to start mapping for rank imo. If you're unable to map a nice Easy-difficulty by yourself - and for some approvalmappers this is quite true - you probably miss out on some very basic understanding for mapping.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
Let me throw an idea here.
Approval section should not be based on song's length anymore, but on score achieved by auto instead.
CB said : "I miss that old rule which says something like "If auto achieves more than 20M score, then the diff goes for approval" "

It is longer to map a 220BPM song than a 160BPM song, because the song is more dense, and there are more objects to put/map in a faster song.
But the score achieved by auto doesn't really reflect the song's length, rather its density, in most of cases, so its BPM ?
Players lose their stamina easier on dense maps with more combos, so with a higher "score per minute" achieve by auto. We call a "marathon" map for player's stamina or song's length ?


Just an idea, not my opinion.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I miss that old rule which says something like "If auto achieves more than 20M score, then the diff goes for approval"
This won't lead to people extending the songs anymore, but they will change the maps, which is arguably worse. What if a map has 19,9M score? Just going to increase Slider Tick Rate or use a long slider instead of a spinner or something.
Kin
2,622 posts
Joined August 2010
Kin
I still don't understand why does pple says it's direspectful when they cut mp3.
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

Endaris wrote:

Personally I dislike plain repeats that add nothing new and there's no other way to extend your mp3 by an amount that is significant enough to push your song over 5min when it wasn't really close to that value before.
Just would like to point out that I made a situation where a song went from 4:52 to 5:01 with a BPM drop of only 3 (base tempo of 100). 3 BPM is not going to be recognizable to the ear for anyone who actually knows the song and wasn't mapping it before, and it's not enough to cause audio issues where it can be assumed that it was modified.

I agree that people should cut songs a bit more -- but, if you've got a song that actually is just short of that mark and does have a ton of variance, are you really going to force them to map multiple difficulties? I think that's a bit absurd, and I think it's the reason why it should be case-by-case.

Kin: an actual cut/reasonable edit for length is something that I don't think anyone should consider to be disrespectful
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom

Desperate-kun wrote:

This won't lead to people extending the songs anymore, but they will change the maps, which is arguably worse. What if a map has 19,9M score? Just going to increase Slider Tick Rate or use a long slider instead of a spinner or something.
As i said, this was just an idea, not a solution. There will be always "glitches".
And the most beautiful thing about this rule : overmapping, yea, note density abuse.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Why are single difficulty maps allowed anyway? If full mapsets of a song that's 4 minutes can be made, mapsets of songs that are 5 minutes surely can be, too.

I think we've long forgotten the purpose of setting rules.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
"If auto achieves more than 20M score, then the diff goes for approval"

I second this, but only because that means i can now approve 3 minute 175 bpm stuff.

those wrote:

Why are single difficulty maps allowed anyway? If full mapsets of a song that's 4 minutes can be made, mapsets of songs that are 5 minutes surely can be, too.

I think we've long forgotten the purpose of setting rules.
Don't forget that "If full mapsets of a song that's 5 minutes can be made, mapsets of songs that are 6 minutes surely can be, too." etc...

Approval is there to give an option to mappers not to have to make a bunch of other difficulties in order to fill a set. Not everyone has the time to make a full set. I think we've discussed this aspect enough in the last 5 pages. Additionally though, not everyone wants to map certain difficulties either. I'm confident I can speak for other mappers too when I say that I can love a song, and be happy mapping out the Insane/Extra but still be unmotivated to map the Normal/Easy. It's not that I don't have the energy/time/dedication, it's simply that mapping this Easy/Normal/Hard feels more like a chore than an expression. If you are mapping a difficulty for the sake of filling a spread, it really limits your creativity, but more importantly, how you want to express the song.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Not to mention the fact that if you're forcing yourself to map something you don't want to, or a difficulty you're unfamiliar with, the map's quality will suffer. And not just the quality of that individual difficulty, as time spent mapping the undesired difficulties detracts from time that could be spent refining the desired ones.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Monstrata wrote:

Don't forget that "If full mapsets of a song that's 5 minutes can be made, mapsets of songs that are 6 minutes surely can be, too." etc...
Yes, that's precisely the point I was trying to make.

Mahogany wrote:

Not to mention the fact that if you're forcing yourself to map something you don't want to, or a difficulty you're unfamiliar with, the map's quality will suffer. And not just the quality of that individual difficulty, as time spent mapping the undesired difficulties detracts from time that could be spent refining the desired ones.
Thus, the beauty of the modding process. Maps don't HAVE to be ranked. You SHOULD have to earn it. It's a privilege, not a right.
DeletedUser_4329079
DeletedUser_4329079
I completely agree, even though this is a symptom of a deeper issue within the ranking critera. The fact that a mapset with a drain of 04:45 minutes needs a full difficulty spread while a map with a drain of 05:00 minutes can get ranked with a single difficulty makes no sense whatsoever. The gap in the amount of work needed is too big in my opinion and it only leads to -some- people cutting songs to make them shorter or extending them/removing breaks to make the map longer and reach the five minute mark (or not trying at all to get them ranked). The amount of difficulties required should be progressive instead of being cut in two categories.

Edit: wording.
Edit 2: added examples.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Oh there goes my brilliant idea to make an easy diff map that is 10x looping one minute song.
Yales
827 posts
Joined February 2013
Yales

Natsu wrote:

  1. Extending the mp3 its disrespectful for the artist Ok
  2. Extending the song its just a way to foolish the marathon length requirement How many sets have you done all by yourself of 4 minutes+ ? (and unlucky for you including an Ultra? -> 6 diffs)
  3. I don't have time to make a full spread set its not an excuse, there are alot of mappers willing to map 1 diff for you In 2 years, ya, I've already tried, no thank you!
  4. Mods aren't hard to get, do M4M is super easy or ask modders to mod just certain diffs in your set. What about BNs ? Good luck find a BN ranking your 6 diffs of 4 minutes you made all by yourself
  5. There is not reasonable amount of time, any edit to the mp3 in case is a bad idea, because this promote the abusing of the system, first people started with 1 or 3 secs, now is the entire copy of sections, to avoid such cases we need a hard rule for this.
Anyways as one of the mappers that always do full set of long songs, I can say that getting mods or gd is never an issue. If you intend to have an approval / marathon length ranked map and your song is 4:59 , then avoid mapping it, simple like that or do a full set of difficulties. Rules are there to be follow and doing this kind of shortcuts isn't right at all
I've never extended my mp3, but I can say that your points are wrong and I know what I'm talking about as I do all my sets (4mins+ by myself). If people wanna do that, as long as the quality is here.. Only point goes for the artist.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

Yales wrote:

[*]Extending the song its just a way to foolish the marathon length requirement How many sets have you done all by yourself of 4 minutes+ ? (and unlucky for you containing an Ultra?) like 2 maybe o.O and some not uploaded ones :P,
[*]I don't have time to make a full spread set its not an excuse, there are alot of mappers willing to map 1 diff for you In 2 years, ya, I already tried, no thank you! then you find not the tright people, I been mapping full ver songs since 2013, never did have any problem with a GD
[*]Mods aren't hard to get, do M4M is super easy or ask modders to mod just certain diffs in your set. What about BNs ? Good luck find a BN ranking your 6 diffs or 4 minutes you made all by yourself I even ranked my airman with 4 mods in like 3 months, I wasn't BN/BAT in that time, but map was good that's the difference i guess.. (did put this one as example so people don't come saying, bt you are a bn, I wasn't even a well know mapper in that time :p).[/list]

Anyways as one of the mappers that always do full set of long songs, I can say that getting mods or gd is never an issue. If you intend to have an approval / marathon length ranked map and your song is 4:59 , then avoid mapping it, simple like that or do a full set of difficulties. Rules are there to be follow and doing this kind of shortcuts isn't right at all
I never extended my mp3, but I can say that your points are wrong and I know what I'm talking about as I do all my sets (4mins+ by myself). If people wanna do that, as long as the quality is here.. Only point is to the artist.[/quote] I never did have a problem ranking any of my 30 full version sets o..o, quality have much to do :) , anyways opinions are opinions after all, I can't say you are wrong as you can't say I'm wrong ;) .
Last edited by Natsu , edited 1 time in total.
Flower
1,723 posts
Joined August 2011
Flower
As a mapper, if I am lazy and I am not allowed to extend the song, I will cut it into 2 minute long cut ver instead. I already did this, e.g. s/111635

Even that extending the mp3 is allowed, if a mapper is as lazy as I do, I won't map a 5-minute long map either, despite of coming up with patterns being mind-costing, having to find 2 bubbles is another difficulty, in most cases even more significant than mapping a long song.

That's my opinion. Seriously, how many people ever mapped full-sized songs? They won't have that much time unless they make maps for living.
Shad0w1and
1,586 posts
Joined April 2011
Shad0w1and
The problem is not about App length is 5 min or 4:59, it is that: 1 sec can make a difference of 1 diff to 6 diffs.
Consider a song that is higher than 200 BPM and you made a 7 star diff, to make it spread nicely you now need to map 4:59 *6 (or maybe 5 if you control the difficulty really well)
or if you made a 5.5 star map, you still need at least 5(or 4) diffs
WHY?
Why can't we have a linear requirement?
Length: 30sec ~ 2:59 min:
minimum diff must be under SR 2.00
spread nicely (like current mapset rule)
>>1.9 - 3.3 - 4.6 - 5.8 - 7
(for most people, they will do like 1.9 - 2.7 - 3.6 - 4.8 - 5.9 - 7)

Length: 3min ~ 3:59 min:
minimum diff must be under SR 2.50
there must be one additional diff between the lowest diff and the highest diff if the gap is too huge (require linear difficualty spread)
>>2.2 star - 4.5 star - 7 star

Length: 4min ~ 4:59 min:
there must be one additional diff lower than if the highest diff is
>>3.8 star - 7 star

Length: >5 min
App

Resulting making one more diff for 4 min song, 2 more for 3 min song. I believe with this rule, people will have less incentives to edit/destroy mp3.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
That's a really interesting system. I like it because it focuses more on total mapset drain vs individual song drain. With a system that shadowland proposes, it would become more mapper-friendly to map long songs because you won't be obligated to make as many diffs. One major turnoff (imo) in mapping 3-4 minute songs is that you often have to include at minimum 5 difficulties to give an even spread if you want to include an Extra. I never understood why so much attention was being placed in "making low difficulty maps" for beginners. The 2.00 star rating minimum is quite an annoying rule to work with and allowing mappers to have different minimum thresholds based on song-length would really benefit mappers imo. Tbh I think beginners should be offended that mappers are required to make so many easy/normal diffs for them xD.
Electoz
Beatmap Nominator
1,895 posts
Joined May 2015
Electoz
But I still have questions about the system Shad0w1and proposed.
Like, if there's a map that has a length like 2:50 or 3:50, I think some mappers would even extend the length again, so they can have 1 diff less.
I felt the system above would encourage mappers to map 4 min+ songs but it could cause even more extensions for "almost" 3-4 min songs.
And from my personal opinion I would make a full spread so that everyone can enjoy the mapset, not just for certain level of players. I would feel frustrated if I were a 6 digit rank, found a song I like but I can't play it because there wasn't easier diff enough for me to play.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu
Easy, normal don't take much time to make, not sure why people always want to avoid making them, since they dont take much time to make, they don't need much modding o.o being honest you need to be really lazy to avoid mapping easy and normal :p
-Atri-
3,049 posts
Joined March 2013
-Atri-

Natsu wrote:

Easy, normal don't take much time to make, not sure why people always want to avoid making them, since they dont take much time to make, they don't need much modding o.o being honest you need to be really lazy to avoid mapping easy and normal :p
But the truth is, they aren't avoid making a Normal or Easy, they're avoiding to make one more Insane (if the highest diff is Expert) or Hard, which takes more time to map and yet harder to map then Easy and Normal
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
osu! needs more tv size!!

Lol sorry but if you want to map longer songs and want to throw the spread aspect out of the window then you prolly shouldnt be mapping long songs to begin with.
Shad0w1and
1,586 posts
Joined April 2011
Shad0w1and

Electoz wrote:

But I still have questions about the system Shad0w1and proposed.
Like, if there's a map that has a length like 2:50 or 3:50, I think some mappers would even extend the length again, so they can have 1 diff less.
I felt the system above would encourage mappers to map 4 min+ songs but it could cause even more extensions for "almost" 3-4 min songs.
And from my personal opinion I would make a full spread so that everyone can enjoy the mapset, not just for certain level of players. I would feel frustrated if I were a 6 digit rank, found a song I like but I can't play it because there wasn't easier diff enough for me to play.
For most mapper who like to map 4:50 kappa songs, they (or we because I map them a lot lol) don't really care to make one more diff for their song, or just find one GD. But as I said, when this came to a expert diff with 4:59 drain... You know that 1 sec can drive people crazy... That's not a bout been lazy, that is simply a question why should I spend 3 times of effort to make 6 diffs and rank it? And think about how many BNs will accept a 6 diff 4:59 song req lel.
Understand that with this old rule in mind, it simply kills most people' incentives to map 4 min song. People have their life. We want share great songs and like to express them. Not everyone can map like Riza Xd.

Okoratu wrote:

osu! needs more tv size!!

Lol sorry but if you want to map longer songs and want to throw the spread aspect out of the window then you prolly shouldnt be mapping long songs to begin with.
Not trying to be offense to TV Size mappers, but simply for most TV size they cut the best part of the song. Mapping TV size make me feel I am been too lazy to express the music.
I think variety should be allowed and mapper who like the full ver songs should be able to do less work to rank a 4:50 song.
Rank a 4min set is simply 3 times effort of tv size. I can tell. No matter you are finding mods or asking BN, that come with 3 times rejection chance.
And that is why people edit mp3
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
I know, I mostly map 3 - 4 min songs and do tv sizes whenever I feel like being a bit more lazy :P

Seems like my work morales about these are different than yours

On a different note the discussion about this is pfftopic to this thread so i recommend creating a separate suggestion thread
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

Shad0w1and wrote:

Not trying to be offense to TV Size mappers, but simply for most TV size they cut the best part of the song. Mapping TV size make me feel I am been too lazy to express the music.
I think variety should be allowed and mapper who like the full ver songs should be able to do less work to rank a 4:50 song.
Rank a 4min set is simply 3 times effort of tv size. I can tell. No matter you are finding mods or asking BN, that come with 3 times rejection chance.
And that is why people edit mp3
Like 25 of my 39 maps are 3:00 - 4:30 full sets, so I think your argument is invalid if you feel lazy about mapping tv sizes, then why you don't feel lazy about asking to avoid spreads, mapping a 3:00 mins songs indeed take more effort, but is still not that much (saying this as a person who map long songs), BNs will reject if they feel the map is bad, they will accept if they think the map is fine, most of BNs don't take request based on drain time, but quality :p. People edit mp3 not for not finding BNs, but to avoid spreads, that's all and is ¨fine¨, but please don't suggest to avoid spreads in under 5 mins songs.
Shad0w1and
1,586 posts
Joined April 2011
Shad0w1and
It always came to a question; why 6min? Why 5 min? As I said that 1 sec can make a different of 1 diff to 6 diffs. Why would system allowed the app at first? It is for people's intensive to map longer song and for players who would like to enjoy full or marathon. Then why not a linear requirement? Yes been lazy is one part, but osu allowed it by app.
With the new rule, people will map 4 min full ver more. And before there are less people map them.
Always remember no one map them = the map not even exist at first or = the mapper made main diff then graves it.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
This is only indirectly related to the discussion about extending mp3s so you should make another thread about your spread adjustment suggestion.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

Shad0w1and wrote:

It always came to a question; why 6min? Why 5 min? As I said that 1 sec can make a different of 1 diff to 6 diffs. Why would system allowed the app at first? It is for people's intensive to map longer song and for players who would like to enjoy full or marathon. Then why not a linear requirement? Yes been lazy is one part, but osu allowed it by app.
With the new rule, people will map 4 min full ver more. And before there are less people map them.
Always remember no one map them = the map not even exist at first or = the mapper made main diff then graves it.
first was because score limit IIRC, second app maps become marathon that's why you need the lenght in consideration, 5 mins is already little and I believe will not be even shorter, Second we want to encourage full spreads and discourage app maps (I think), people will map and rank their love song not matter time. Also as Oko said this is being offtopic, if you want to discuss this then make a new thread about it.
Seijiro
osu! Alumni
3,438 posts
Joined April 2013
Seijiro
What Oko an Natsu already said.
The idea itself doesn't do any harm but it is a bit offtopic here :p
Shad0w1and
1,586 posts
Joined April 2011
Shad0w1and
moved to t/432739
if anyone is interested:/
Kiyohime
30 posts
Joined December 2014
Kiyohime
I would like to see an update and input from those in charge on this. As it currently stands, there's been no final answer on "yes this is allowed" or "no, this isn't allowed."

I personally dislike the idea of extensions especially if they're made, just so that the mapper can be lazy and reach the 5min approval minimum, but if the extensions make sense then I can work with it. I do not think that extensions that add segments of fluff (1-2 seconds) spread out over the entire song should be allowed however, such as is the case in current hot topic: t/454951

I feel that they're nonsensical and lazy, done only for the purpose of not having to map a full spread since you're adding little bits of fluff (usually ambience or extended notes) that don't really add to the song in any way or form.

It also opens the door to everyone trying to do it. "Oh, this guy extended his song from 4:58 to 5:00, so I can probably do it from 4:57." Then the next guy will extend his from 4:55, then the next guy from 4:50, and then the next from 4:45, then the next from 4:35, etc etc etc ad nauseam. Eventually you'll reach a point where a fraction of the map is literally just extensions.

edit: fixed wording
Last edited by Kiyohime , edited 2 times in total.
Mismagius
9,268 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
I believe that some songs do work well when extended, and it's something that has been happening for a while now (e.g. this map did it well). The problem happens when it's something like A-L-I-E-N where Monstrata deliberately copypasted/slowed down parts that aren't even the main song, like applause and silence, just to make the map over 5 minutes. Apparently, the reasoning behind this was that "the song is bad so no one would like a full spread of it" but... why even map the song if you think it's so bad?

tl;dr no need to completely restrict mp3 extensions, but at least make it less abusable because it's currently way too easy to just find a workaround over the current wording.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I honestly see no problem in slowing down the fade at the end, to push the map over 5 minutes. As long as it isn't clearly noticable, I'd say there are no problems with it

@Kiyohime, this thread is a request to disallow it. That means, that in its current state, it's perfectly fine!
xtrem3x
1,786 posts
Joined July 2009
xtrem3x
Don't extend mp3 song specially to complete time in APP songs (same indications as Nogard's post) <<< please -_-
Kiyohime
30 posts
Joined December 2014
Kiyohime

Bara- wrote:

@Kiyohime, this thread is a request to disallow it. That means, that in its current state, it's perfectly fine!
Sorry, I realized when rereading my post that I had worded it incorrectly (double negatives).

I'm currently in the state of mind of not wanting to allow extensions to be rankable, but I'm also not going to say that all extensions are innately bad if they make sense. If a song is 1-2 seconds off from 5min, then while I personally still don't agree with it, I can at least understand the reasoning behind the extension. In A-L-I-E-N's case, however, the song is almost a full fifteen seconds out. That's just way too long to artificially extend.
DeletedUser_4329079
DeletedUser_4329079

Bara- wrote:

I honestly see no problem in slowing down the fade at the end, to push the map over 5 minutes. As long as it isn't clearly noticable, I'd say there are no problems with it
This makes absolutely no sense, why not just allow mappers to rank it anyway then since it would be basically the same thing without a stupid 15 second slider mapped to some random copy paste shit at the end of the song.

I'm totally fine with various songs being merged together if they fit though (like Kyshiro's Pavor Nocturnus), it can make some maps even better.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
While we are in the mindset about disrespecting the music/artist can we also discuss cutting the music as well? It's been bothering me for a long time now and I just figured most of the community didn't care about the lack of quality. Let's be real though, people still don't care they just don't want to see monstrata rank another meme and are looking for excuses to prevent it from happening

If taking a 4:40 song and extending to 5:00 is a problem because its effectively 15 minutes less of map that the community gets then cutting like a 4:40 song down to a 1:17 cut version is equally as bad because across 4-5 difficulties you are losing just as much map.

To be clear I'm not talking about tv sizes since those "cuts" are official and released long before the full size single. TV sizes at least retain their novelty until the full size comes out. Cut sizes aren't novel for any period of time.

Quoting Natsu because everything he said about extending maps also applies to cut versions oddly enough. Instead of abusing the approval rule it's abusing the rule allowing for cuts of maps which is pretty clearly targeted at songs with excessive intro/outro sections that you really wouldn't map anything relevant to anyways.

Natsu wrote:

  1. Extending the mp3 its disrespectful for the artist
  2. Extending the song its just a way to foolish the marathon length requirement
  3. I don't have time to make a full spread set its not an excuse, there are alot of mappers willing to map 1 diff for you
  4. Mods aren't hard to get, do M4M is super easy or ask modders to mod just certain diffs in your set.
  5. There is not reasonable amount of time, any edit to the mp3 in case is a bad idea, because this promote the abusing of the system, first people started with 1 or 3 secs, now is the entire copy of sections, to avoid such cases we need a hard rule for this.
Anyways as one of the mappers that always do full set of long songs, I can say that getting mods or gd is never an issue. If you intend to have an approval / marathon length ranked map and your song is 4:59 , then avoid mapping it, simple like that or do a full set of difficulties. Rules are there to be follow and doing this kind of shortcuts isn't right at all
TheLeviathan
271 posts
Joined December 2014
TheLeviathan
Seems fine to me to extend song length for few seconds.
I've personally faced that problem of getting 4:58 drain time, so had to low bpm of map by 1 to extend drain time to somewhat 5:02.
That's not the case tho cos in the end i ended up with mapping full set anyway :D but maybe for someone else it's better solution to gain extra 5-6 seconds instead of mapping 3-4 more difficulties.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
The purpose of extending an mp3 is to get a song ranked. You are able to promote the artist's works through the ranking process. There are both pros and cons to song extension. However if you aren't the artist, you can't speak for the artist and say mp3 extension is disrespectful. What if the artist is fine with it and wants their works promoted? Also don't you think uploading their song onto a site to be freely downloadable by everyone is disrespectful too? Especially if an artist doesn't want you freely downloading their stuff. (Stop stop osu upload?) If you guys want to argue mp3 editing as disrespect, I think there are other factors to consider.

I can answer questions on mp3 extension specific to alien on my map thread. Let's keep this thread on topic.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Monstrata wrote:

You are able to promote the artist's works through the ranking process.
If that is at all an objective or goal, then at most it can be only be secondary. The real objective would be to get your song mapped. A map doesn't have to be ranked in order to promote anything; BSS is open to all registered users.

You're all trying to come up with arguments on the basis that getting maps ranked is in the natural order of things instead of it being a privilege, and that's why this isn't getting anywhere. It's ludicrous how I made a very similar comment 5 months ago and we're still at a standstill.
DeletedUser_4329079
DeletedUser_4329079
More people will play a map if it's ranked, that's for sure. I still think a system that allows mp3 to be extended but doesn't allow the same song to be ranked without being edited due to an arbitrary length rule is heavily flawed.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata

those wrote:

Monstrata wrote:

You are able to promote the artist's works through the ranking process.
If that is at all an objective or goal, then at most it can be only be secondary. The real objective would be to get your song mapped. A map doesn't have to be ranked in order to promote anything; BSS is open to all registered users.

You're all trying to come up with arguments on the basis that getting maps ranked is in the natural order of things instead of it being a privilege, and that's why this isn't getting anywhere. It's ludicrous how I made a very similar comment 5 months ago and we're still at a standstill.
In an ideal system, a map doesn't have to be ranked in order to promote the song/artist/mapper/map/etc... But we all know just how much more popular a map/song/artist/etc... becomes when it is ranked. I understand your point though, that ranking should be considered a privilege. However, I think that view is dated... Ranking has more or less become a right, and modern mapping, along with the current nomination system has made it so. I'd rather operate under that assumption than to try and change an entire meta's view on ranking privilege.

I don't think condemning lazy mappers for not doing a full set is how we should go about pushing this rule forward. It seems that this rule is being pushed in order to prevent mappers from being lazy, instead of preventing low quality stuff from entering ranked. I don't agree with the motive because then we'll start pointing fingers elsewhere at people being lazy (cutting songs/getting too many gd's/getting 60 people to collab their 5 minute approval map).
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete. I will send a PM to the author of the topic that encourages him to bring it up to one of the council members.
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