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[Rule] Use of .ogg in Mania Sets

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Total Posts
28
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445
Right now there's a lot of confusion going on with mania sets and whether they can or can't use OGG files for keysounds.

This started here p/2848687 where it was said that support was dropped for them.
Still, they play sounds as they should, which appears to be legacy support.

We've been avoiding OGG ever since, but it's been causing filesize issues as WAV files are usually bigger than OGG. It's inflating keysounded maps and will potentially put a lot of unwanted stress on the download servers.

So my question is, do we still support OGG files?
If we don't support them anymore, why not? It will ease a lot of stress on the download servers if we keep using OGG files. I'd imagine it's worth supporting for that.
ExPew
Elite Mapper
1,220 posts
Joined January 2011
ExPew
for now ogg format working well ( im not sure about that future osu will 'abandon' ogg soon ) because i fully success upload/submit my keysounding map with ogg format... to prevent oversize mapfile
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445
Actually the link ExPew posted is a good example, apparently that map would go past 10 MB after wav conversion, right now it's 7.8 MB
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94
Although I'm busy irl, I'm gonna join this discussion. As ExPew and Charles has said, OGG files are WAY better than using WAV files in terms of file size which is smaller than WAV files which makes players are easy to download them than downloading a bigger one and unwanted stress on the download servers like Charles has mentioned.

I have tested to upload the OGG files to BSS and to me though, I always stuck at numeric percent or if it's not, stuck at creating preview point. I have no idea if it's BSS problem of my ISP problem due to this matter. But ExPew successfully upload it without those problems that I have mentioned, so yeah. :roll:

Still, I do want this rule to be amended so that ExPew, me and others who're expertise in mapping keysounded maps can upload those keysounded maps without worrying on the current 10mb/24mb size limit rule.
Rumia-
2,513 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-
.wav too op for keysound chart. not all people have a stable internet connection to upload the .wav files , most of times its a failure. exceeding 10mb is 1 more thing.
i still support ogg. files though
o!m needs more keysounded chart
NaxelCL
NaxelCL
in my opinnion mania keysounded maps ._. is very laggy , example : https://osu.ppy.sh/s/152065 my map not resist archive wav or other sounds more of 1MB XD , mmm others people say this =
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94

NaxelCL wrote:

in my opinnion mania keysounded maps ._. is very laggy , example : https://osu.ppy.sh/s/152065 my map not resist archive wav or other sounds more of 1MB XD , mmm others people say this =
Yes, it's very laggy due to usage of WAV files. I think OGG files would still be laggy but not as heavy laggy like WAV files.
Roxas
osu! Alumni
1,354 posts
Joined August 2011
Roxas
I obviously agree for .ogg support, as you said, they're less big than .wav files and a keysounded map with .wav files would be way too big. So, .ogg keysounding is the only way to do it imo.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Isnt that more a feature request?
dkun
osu! Alumni
4,486 posts
Joined August 2009
dkun
peppy has stated himself that ogg has been deprecated. This is more of a feature request at this point, yes.
Damnae
Elite Storyboarder
640 posts
Joined July 2011
Damnae
can't mp3 by used instead of ogg?
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Damnae wrote:

can't mp3 by used instead of ogg?
The problem with mp3 is that when encoding it, a silence is added to the beginning of the audio track (so the hitsounds/keysounds would sound delayed). A solution would having the encoder write how much time the added silence is in the file metadata, and having osu! interpret that data to skip the silence, but the mp3 format doesn't have a standard way to do this.
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach

Full Tablet wrote:

Damnae wrote:

can't mp3 by used instead of ogg?
The problem with mp3 is that when encoding it, a silence is added to the beginning of the audio track (so the hitsounds/keysounds would sound delayed). A solution would having the encoder write how much time the added silence is in the file metadata, and having osu! interpret that data to skip the silence, but the mp3 format doesn't have a standard way to do this.
You mean like -OFL switch for Fraunhofer, which I have been using for quite a while?

Source .flac


Resulting .mp3


Same duration, correct bitrate, stuff, things. I'll do a check of some sample transcodes to check if they keep the file length properly.

Edit: http://puu.sh/8eSSB/7d36351771.rar The only problem with this is that it's a kinda difficult solution due to Fraunhofer encoder being licensed, and not readily available.
Last edited by Lach , edited 1 time in total.
arcwinolivirus
1,588 posts
Joined October 2012
arcwinolivirus
I agree with the use of .ogg because it is less size, and not that heavy as .wavs
Also I think that using the file type itself might less the lag in editing keysounded maps (As I mod one of the keysounded map, STAGER that I can't even scroll properly. Same with Imperishable)

The use of .ogg is common to o2jam notecharters and BMS and I say its better to use than those .wav (just look how much size you can have on it compared with .wav keysounded chart)
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94
If then, someone must request this on Feature Requests sub-forum. Should I make one for it?
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
This is something better addressed by a feature request, for what it's worth. I'm also not entirely sure if the audio library that osu! uses even appropriately reads the OFL tags produced by the Fraunhofer IIS encoder, either.

Has anyone actually attempted to encode their mania hitsounds as mp3 to see if the effect is a tangible and noticeable one?
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Actually, for now, I am denying this on the basis that mp3 should technically be feasible even with minor encoder delay when compared to ogg/wav files for the sake of general play. If this is ever proven to be an actual, tangible issue, we can revisit this.
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94

Ephemeral wrote:

Has anyone actually attempted to encode their mania hitsounds as mp3 to see if the effect is a tangible and noticeable one?
I'll try to record a video with mp3 as keysounds and you'll be able to notice why mp3 isn't the solution for keysounded maps.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet
This is a hit-sound file in .wav format

How the .wav hitsound sounds for a beat just at the beginning of the song, in Auto mode

How it sounds after changing the format to .mp3 in Adobe Audition

The hit-sound is about 21ms delayed. The delay is an extra time between the key press, and the moment the hitsound starts sounding. When opening the .mp3 file in Audition, it plays it without the extra delay (it transform to PCM format for editing without adding a delay at the beginning compared to the .wav file).
Edit: If I use Audacity (which uses LAME encoder) to encode the mp3, the delay in-game doesn't appear. But for some reason, Audacity itself fails to read the mp3 correctly (about 47ms extra silence at the beginning), as well as Audition (extra 22ms silence at the beginning).

How it sounds after changing to .ogg (Vorbis) instead

Pretty much the same as .wav
Roxas
osu! Alumni
1,354 posts
Joined August 2011
Roxas
^ I think this is an issue
Rumia-
2,513 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-
dont complare .flac and mp3 with .wav/ogg

Lach wrote:

The problem with mp3 is that when encoding it, a silence is added to the beginning of the audio track (so the hitsounds/keysounds would sound delayed). A solution would having the encoder write how much time the added silence is in the file metadata, and having osu! interpret that data to skip the silence, but the mp3 format doesn't have a standard way to do this.
You mean like -OFL switch for Fraunhofer, which I have been using for quite a while?

Source .flac


Resulting .mp3


Same duration, correct bitrate, stuff, things. I'll do a check of some sample transcodes to check if they keep the file length properly.

Edit: http://puu.sh/8eSSB/7d36351771.rar The only problem with this is that it's a kinda difficult solution due to Fraunhofer encoder being
licensed, and not readily available.[/quote]

i've tested keysounding with .mp3 in resulting its very annoying and off beat. .ogg just felt better
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/168668
Luckman
220 posts
Joined April 2013
Luckman

- R u m i a - wrote:

i've tested keysounding with .mp3 in resulting its very annoying and off beat. .ogg just felt better
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/168668
I agree!!
Spy
2,538 posts
Joined November 2011
Spy
R.I.P
richardfeder
1,056 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder
mp3 just can't work as well as ogg. the delay issue of mp3 is known widely and for the time being ogg is the only suitable keysound format for upload and download
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach

Rumia- wrote:

i've tested keysounding with .mp3 in resulting its very annoying and off beat. .ogg just felt better
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/168668
FWIW those samples in your map are using LAME, but osu! probably doesn't know how to decode an OFL stream in fraunhofer anyway. I do support .ogg, though.
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear

Ephemeral wrote:

Actually, for now, I am denying this on the basis that mp3 should technically be feasible even with minor encoder delay when compared to ogg/wav files for the sake of general play. If this is ever proven to be an actual, tangible issue, we can revisit this.
21ms is not minor. The timing window for a rainbow 300 is 16ms.
ArcherLove
1,434 posts
Joined March 2013
ArcherLove
File size too big ;o; ...
- [ S o r a ] -
318 posts
Joined December 2013
- [ S o r a ] -

ArcherLove wrote:

File size too big ;o; ...
If i convert to .wav = too large files ;w;
I think .ogg is the best = reduce file size
.ogg is smaller than .wav and .mp3 = > very small <
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