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You can't train 'snap' and 'flow' aim specifically

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Topic Starter
Almost
I'm going to go on a little rant here because I see such stupid advice such as 'go improve your snapping' or 'go improve your flow aim'. There's no such thing! Whenever I try argue my point, people misinterpret everything I'm saying so I'm going to try lay out the facts in a more clear and organised manner so hopefully there's a lot less confusion.

To start with, let's discuss reading. Everyone seems to think reading is only knowing what to do (for example). That's wrong. Reading is knowing what to do and doing it. Besides, if reading was only about knowing what to do, then unless you're playing something like this it wouldn't be that important a skill since it's generally straightforward. People tend to confuse that second part as being aim but it's not, it's part of reading. Aim is simply your ability to move your cursor from point A to point B within certain time constraints with a certain margin of error (circle size). We aren't even talking about even playing a map yet. Let me illustrate with everyone's favorite pattern, the square.

A square is a very basic pattern that we can all recognize immediately upon seeing it. There is no issue here in knowing what to do. Even a monkey could look at it and know what to do. But when many newer players try to execute this pattern, they tend to either draw some awkward looking circle, slightly miss one of the circles or forget about one of the circles altogether. Is that a problem with aim then? Well if you were to give the same player each jump individually (A -> B, B -> C, C -> D), they would tend to be able to hit it no problem. It's only when the circles are put into that sort of shape do problems arise. Then where do does the problem lie? In the reading!!! It doesn't matter if you know what to do if you can't actually do it. It's like understanding a language but not being able to speak it yourself.

Now we have that basic definition of what reading really is out of the way, let's get to the crux of the problem. Elitists seems to think that you have to train to move your cursor in a straight line and pause slightly on the circle when doing jumps (snap aim). So to begin with, there's no real need to train specifically to move your cursor in as straight a line as possible. If you read correctly, then it's automatically part of the process. I've written a guide on how to read correctly before but in short, to read correctly you simply just look directly at the next circle you need to hit. For example, if you have a jump from circle 1 to circle 2, then to read it correctly, you would first look directly at circle 1, tap, then move your attention to circle 2, tap. In this process, all you have to do with your cursor is move it from circle 1 to circle 2. Automatically without even any training for it, you'll move your cursor in as efficient a path as physically possible between both points. And that efficient path is.... a straight line. Magic.

Obviously, it's difficult to get a straight line in a reality because there's a lot of other variables in play to throw you off. Again, I outlined all this in my guide but as an example, you look too quickly at the next circle you need to hit before you're done with the current one causing you to swing your straight line into a more curved shape which causes you to miss the current circle.

Now onto the pause. Everyone pauses on the next circle, you don't have to train for that either. If you were to slow down the map enough, you'll have ample time to pause your cursor. The only times you don't pause your cursor on a circle is when the map is simply just too fast for you or you're playing something where pausing really doesn't make any sense at all (like on streams). The basic remedy for this just to get used to playing faster maps (not in terms of finger speed though they tend to require that anyway).

Now onto 'flow aim'. It boggles my minds that people think something like 'flow aim' even exists and it's even used on https://syrin.me/pp+/ as a skill! What the hell does having better flow aim even mean? Does it mean that you can move your cursor at a more consistent speed compared to everyone else? Or does it mean that you can move your cursor in a more 'fluid' manner? Reading streams is done in the exact same way as reading everything else, you look directly at each circle as you're about to hit it. Since most streams you see tend to have very small gaps in between each circle, you're basically drawing lots of tiny straight lines and the overall outcome makes it look more fluid or curved.

I'm going make this last point nice a bold so everyone can see it. I'm not saying aim doesn't matter. Aim is important in the sense that you need to a have certain level of ability to actually even clear whatever you're trying to play. It doesn't matter how good your reading abilities are if you can't aim. That being said though, most people tend to have the problem of poor reading ability but higher aim skills. That's why you get so many people complaining about their inconsistencies and why they pull their cursor away too early or whatnot. It's reading, not because of 'flow' or 'snap' aim or whatever nonsense you want to call them.

I think I got through all the points I wanted to go through but if you still have criticism, I don't mind lending an ear.

Rant end.

Common criticisms

I feel like a bit of a broken record as the same criticisms of what I am suggesting keeping coming up so I'm just going to give a breakdown of the problems here.

1. Snap movement is for jumps and flow for streams...
I will admit that the title of this post is a little misleading... I appreciate that snap and flow movements are apt descriptions of what the movements look like but my argument is that they aren't specific skills you can develop.

2. You can know what to do and still miss because of aim...
Yes, I even have mentioned this multiple times as well. Here is a flow chart I made to illustrate what I mean by what causes misses:

As you go down the flow chart, you can see that the aim component is necessary. It's the question "Can I consistently hit each individual jump in this pattern?" That's the way to test whether or not you have the aim skill required to execute the pattern or not. If you still miss even if you can consistently hit each jump individually, then it's because of poor reading. This poor reading is not in the knowing what to do but in the actual doing of things. This is what I was elucidating to in my description of the player struggling with a square.

3. Just because you have good aim to do jumps doesn't mean you can also aim streams too...
This is true but not because of specifically being better at snap aim or flow aim. Though the basic methodology for reading both jumps and streams are the same, the skills aren't exactly transferable between the two. The timing aspects as well as the spacing between circles are completely different. You have to practice both to get good at both. The flowchart given earlier can also give you the same insight for streams also (just change the 2nd question to "Can I consistently hit 2 consecutive circles within this stream?").
Juuuuuuuuul
Your obsession is disgusting
There is nothing wrong with calling two differents motions with two differents names (flow and snap)
And calling me idiot will no help, maybe you feel better doing this ? what a smart boy you are.
Linking screenshot without context, smart move again.
Grow up.
Topic Starter
Almost

Juuuuuuuuul wrote:

Your obsession is disgusting
There is nothing wrong with calling two differents motions with two differents names (flow and snap)
And calling me idiot will no help, maybe you feel better doing this ? what a smart boy you are.
Linking screenshot without context, smart move again.
Grow up.

I call you an idiot because even when I spell out your inadequacies, you still go on as if nothing happened. If you were truly going to end the discussion amicably, you wouldn't end it with your own points as if you're correct (and the point you laid out was already incorrect from what I mentioned in the earlier post). You only needed the first half of your post.

The screenshot I linked was only used as an example of how people tend to wrongly think about what reading is so it wasn't meant to be shot fired to anyone. If you thought I am doing it purposefully to call you out, then my apologies.

I have no problem with calling them different motions to describe the movement better as a whole, my problem is with people packaging them up and teaching people nonsense.
Juuuuuuuuul
Stop please stop, speaking with you is useless, you're too obsessed. Better speak to a wall.
Everything is already said in the other thread, if you disagree, deal with it.
i already spoke and gave my point of view about differences between reading (brain work) and aim (physical/muscles work).
If you can't agree with the fact that understanding a move will not make you able to physically success at it, well, i don't care anymore.

edit : link to the other thread for curious people :
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/956752&start=15
GRR SNARL GROWL
MrSparklepants
You can be able to READ something, and then miss it when trying to AIM it, and there really is 2 types of aiming, snap and flow. I generally like to use jump maps for snap aim, and I like to use streams, or what Woey plays as flow aim. Do you think someone that only plays snap aim/jump maps will be able to AIM a complex stream? Because I don't think they could very well, because they're not use to being able to AIM curves and such, but they can be a able to READ it. And finally I honestly think you took this WAY to far, and should just let this go.
Juuuuuuuuul
The screenshot I linked was only used as an example of how people tend to wrongly think about what reading is so it wasn't meant to be shot fired to anyone. If you thought I am doing it purposefully to call you out, then my apologies.
Well maybe i'm going a bit far too, finally it seems that's just a misunderstanding.
then my apologies too for being a bit aggressive. your obsession about that people don't understand at all the importance of reading was a bit annoying,
i think everyone agree with the fact that reading is mandatory for the aim to work, there is no need to insist like this.
Also insulting people may make them angry :)
Topic Starter
Almost

Juuuuuuuuul wrote:

Stop please stop, speaking with you is useless, you're too obsessed. Better speak to a wall.
Everything is already said in the other thread, if you disagree, deal with it.
i already spoke and gave my point of view about differences between reading (brain work) and aim (physical/muscles work).
If you can't agree with the fact that understanding a move will not make you able to physically success at it, well, i don't care anymore.

edit : link to the other thread for curious people :
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/956752&start=15

Ok look princess, I don't know how much of a special snowflake you think you are but this post isn't about you. If you think it was, I've already apologized for this. I already want to you stop because I'm on the same page as you in different ways; there's no point in discussing with you since you won't agree on even the most basic of definitions. You completely ignore my argument for it even! The amount of times I've told you what reading is and how many times I've repeated that I appreciate that aim matters and you still keep misconstruing my words.

Anyway, I find it quite ironic that you're calling me obsessed when you keep coming back here. Again, this post isn't about you!!!

MrSparklepants wrote:

You can be able to READ something, and then miss it when trying to AIM it, and there really is 2 types of aiming, snap and flow. I generally like to use jump maps for snap aim, and I like to use streams, or what Woey plays as flow aim. Do you think someone that only plays snap aim/jump maps will be able to AIM a complex stream? Because I don't think they could very well, because they're not use to being able to AIM curves and such, but they can be a able to READ it. And finally I honestly think you took this WAY to far, and should just let this go.

As I already said, even if you can read something, you won't be able to play it without the aim. So aim is necessary. I also already mentioned that misses even when you can read it (just knowing what to do) is also to do with reading because you can get distracted by other objects (the actually doing it). It's one of the main reasons why high object density makes things more difficult.

Practicing lots of jump maps will make you better at reading jumps and practicing stream maps will make you better at streams. You need to practice both. The way you read it is the same but the distances between circles makes the difference.
Juuuuuuuuul
read my previous post my dear prince :)
Remilo
Holy, you need to be on the daily wire with Ben Shapiro. Almost, I like arguments you made, but I think refraining from calling people names would be a bit more respectful same goes for all others. If all of this is just useless name calling and seeing who is right this isn't really the place to be, because it just fills up thread.
Topic Starter
Almost

Juuuuuuuuul wrote:

read my previous post my dear prince :)

Great we can make this more amicable :)

Ramilo wrote:

Holy, you need to be on the daily wire with Ben Shapiro. Almost, I like arguments you made, but I think refraining from calling people names would be a bit more respectful same goes for all others. If all of this is just useless name calling and seeing who is right this isn't really the place to be, because it just fills up thread.

Roger that.
Nao Tomori
flow aims when u move in a flow and snap aims when ur cursor snaps back and forth bro wats so hard 2 understand about that. do u aim streams and back and forths the same way with ur cursor stopping on each note?
Topic Starter
Almost

Nao Tomori wrote:

flow aims when u move in a flow and snap aims when ur cursor snaps back and forth bro wats so hard 2 understand about that. do u aim streams and back and forths the same way with ur cursor stopping on each note?

Yes, I appreciate that the cursor moves in a different manner in both jumps and snaps. However, if you read the OP, I already outlined why the cursor moves in such ways. I don't have anything against anyone using those terms to describe someone's aim as they are apt descriptions, my problem is against people advising others to "improve flow aim/snap aim" or whatever. The whole focus of advice in this area should be directed to just improving reading.
Nao Tomori
but u can read a stream without being able to accelerate/decelerate properly and/or read jumps but miss then because your hand is unstable or you can't move fast enough or something, in which case the flaw isn't your comprehension of the patterns but your mechanical skill, which is what people suggest improving when they say to fix snap and flow aim. muscle control is a pretty important part of the game which your theory of aim being only reading based ignores
Topic Starter
Almost

Nao Tomori wrote:

but u can read a stream without being able to accelerate/decelerate properly and/or read jumps but miss then because your hand is unstable or you can't move fast enough or something, in which case the flaw isn't your comprehension of the patterns but your mechanical skill, which is what people suggest improving when they say to fix snap and flow aim. muscle control is a pretty important part of the game which your theory of aim being only reading based ignores

From what people have been saying to me thus far, I think people focus too much on the "knowing what to do" part of reading. Knowing what to do is the easy part of reading, actually doing it is the hard part of it (which I have already mentioned is completely separate to the aim skill).

If you read streams properly there is no acceleration or deceleration of your cursor, you're simply moving your cursor to the circle that needs to be hit next. Thus, when a stream does have changes in it's spacing, you aren't trying trying to change your cursor to match the stream spacing change. The difference in the way you think about how you play this makes a big difference in the end result.

For your jumps problem if you just aren't fast enough in hand movement to hit the jump, then yes, the problem does lie in your aim. Again, unless you're playing a map way out of your league, the culprit in misses is usually in the reading. I will emphasize again, it's not about the comprehension of the pattern that causes the problem but the way the maps being read.

My theory of aim is not solely based on reading which is what I've been trying to point out many many times already.

To illustrate what I've been talking about, let me give an example. Imagine you have a map that's mapped out at AR9. If you were to edit that same map down to AR8, you've effectively increased the object density thus making it harder to read. That shift of 1 AR isn't enough to really hamper the difficulty in pattern comprehension but you'll have more misses on the AR8 version versus the AR9 (assuming you're able to comfortably read both ARs equally) simply because of the object density increasing the amount of noise you have to shift through.
Juuuuuuuuul
i'm still not happy with the screenshot, please quote someone who is thinking that moving cursor in a flow motion is read differently than moving in a snap motion instead. As you already said, it's obviously wrong.

To stay in the topic,
imo what will make the player to choose if he will snap or flow, is reading, reading well cross screen jumps will make the player trying to snap on them as fast as he can, and reading well a long and fast slider will make him tying to flow it, following the sliderball, for streams, the player will try to move in a flow motion between circles because it's the most efficient way to success at it (aka the most efficient way to make your cursor going from a to b to c etc..).
Even if physicaly, some people are controlling better their hand when they snap or when they flow, a good reading will make them aiming in the most efficient way.

also, you said reading is understanding what to do AND doing it, i see "doing something" as physicaly doing it, aim. when playing, we're reading and aiming, both in real time, i mean there is no "steps", step 1 read the pattern, step 2 do the pattern, repeat. it's not working like this and Almost's description of reading is explaining it well. We need to read and aim at the same time. i always agreed that since the beginning.

But i still disagree with the sentence : "if reading well, aim will follow", unfortunaly, physical fast and precise control of hand is not easy for everyone.
and some can be better at controlling when they snap than when they flow and vise versa.
Endaris
Starting your argumentation with an insult is a surefire way to kill it before it started.
Topic Starter
Almost

Juuuuuuuuul wrote:

also, you said reading is understanding what to do AND doing it, i see "doing something" as physicaly doing it, aim. when playing, we're reading and aiming, both in real time, i mean there is no "steps", step 1 read the pattern, step 2 do the pattern, repeat. it's not working like this and Almost's description of reading is explaining it well. We need to read and aim at the same time. i always agreed that since the beginning.

The steps is just to illustrate the process, obviously things breakdown in real life. That physical aspect I would still classify as part of reading rather than aim. If you look back to my example of playing a square in the OP, you will see the the player has the aim skill necessary to play all the jumps involved in the square but failed when they're put together. This is not just for squares but all patterns.

Juuuuuuuuul wrote:

But i still disagree with the sentence : "if reading well, aim will follow", unfortunaly, physical fast and precise control of hand is not easy for everyone.
and some can be better at controlling when they snap than when they flow and vise versa.


With that phrase, I am not saying you'll automatically be able to hit the circle. What I meant by that quote is that you'll automatically pick the best route in your aim to hit the circle (i.e. the flow or snap aim). This completely eliminates the need to specifically train flow or snap aim because it's just part of the process.

The "physical fast and precise control of hand" that you mention is the aim aspect of it. Which is just the skill as I described in the OP. That aspect does not dictate how well you can flow or snap aim as your ability to flow or snap aim is being dictated by your reading.

Endaris wrote:

Starting your argumentation with an insult is a surefire way to kill it before it started.

I made it more friendly I guess.
dung eater
one movement for one object snaps, one movement for many flows.
Vuelo Eluko
rent free
Topic Starter
Almost

Almost wrote:

Common criticisms

I feel like a bit of a broken record as the same criticisms of what I am suggesting keeping coming up so I'm just going to give a breakdown of the problems here.

1. Snap movement is for jumps and flow for streams...
I will admit that the title of this post is a little misleading... I appreciate that snap and flow movements are apt descriptions of what the movements look like but my argument is that they aren't specific skills you can develop.

2. You can know what to do and still miss because of aim...
Yes, I even have mentioned this multiple times as well. Here is a flow chart I made to illustrate what I mean by what causes misses:

As you go down the flow chart, you can see that the aim component is necessary. It's the question "Can I consistently hit each individual jump in this pattern?" That's the way to test whether or not you have the aim skill required to execute the pattern or not. If you still miss even if you can consistently hit each jump individually, then it's because of poor reading. This poor reading is not in the knowing what to do but in the actual doing of things. This is what I was elucidating to in my description of the player struggling with a square.

3. Just because you have good aim to do jumps doesn't mean you can also aim streams too...
This is true but not because of specifically being better at snap aim or flow aim. Though the basic methodology for reading both jumps and streams are the same, the skills aren't exactly transferable between the two. The timing aspects as well as the spacing between circles are completely different. You have to practice both to get good at both. The flowchart given earlier can also give you the same insight for streams also (just change the 2nd question to "Can I consistently hit 2 consecutive circles within this stream?").

I changed the title of the thread to be less confusing and more towards the point of my argument and added some responses to common criticism.
Vuelo Eluko
There's a reason some players specialize in flow aim and others in snap aim (i.e vaxei vs idke) and it's because they played on maps where more of the difficulty came from one than the other.
Topic Starter
Almost

Vuelo Eluko wrote:

There's a reason some players specialize in flow aim and others in snap aim (i.e vaxei vs idke) and it's because they played on maps where more of the difficulty came from one than the other.

People tend to do more of what they're good at and less of what they're not so good at. That's just human nature.
Vuelo Eluko

Almost wrote:

Vuelo Eluko wrote:

There's a reason some players specialize in flow aim and others in snap aim (i.e vaxei vs idke) and it's because they played on maps where more of the difficulty came from one than the other.
People tend to do more of what they're good at and less of what they're not so good at. That's just human nature.
and some people are better at flow aim than snap aim because they are more practiced at one than the other, i.e they trained it more.
Topic Starter
Almost
Play more streams, get better at playing streams. Play more jumps, get better at playing jumps. It's not actually about flow or snap aim at all.
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