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More questions for you fast DT players

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Topic Starter
G0r
Hey, guys. I'm still having my same old worry about not being able to handle singles at doubletime speeds on maps that are maybe 150 or higher due to an inability to alternate clicks using my click/x play style. I'm getting a little better, I think, but my question for you is: do you think that it will help me to play maps that have spaced out streams, or are mostly single tapable up until there are some singles that happen quick enough to force me to have to alternate?

I can't think of any other way to expose myself to the problem... Currently I am slowly increasing my singletap speed by avoiding maps that are much above 130 BPM when I do doubletime. I feel like this isn't going to make me any better at those quick singles, though. Even if I reached the limit of my single tap speed, I think I'd still be unable to click fast enough to get good accuracy on a 160BPM DT play.

Obviously I doubletap some stuff; like streams, repeating sliders, stacks, quick double beats, alternating streams that mix with sliders, and some other stuff. It's not like my left hand is doing nothing. It's just that I find it almost impossible to treat single beats as streams when I have DT on and can't single tap them, and I need a good practice method so I'm not just banging my head against the wall by trying to do this and dying after a few beats.

Should I keep trying to slowly build up my play speed as it is? I've also gone back and started playing very slow maps to try to help me get more accurate on slow streams. I figure that's kind of a related skill to alternating fast singles. I can DT at maybe up to 130 BPM without bad accuracy, and maybe up to 140 BPM with bad accuracy. Mind you it's not every map that I can do this on. I'm just giving a general idea of my current limits.
Amefuri Koneko
Are you aiming for top ranks? If not, why would you even want to use DT and make songs sound like BS? Just play faster beatmaps.
If yes - try playing "Kirby mix" difficulties, they're great singletap training, mech keyboard can help with singletaps too. Alternating is also a good method, but AFAIK some people can never overcome confusion it creates, try to alternate everything for a few weeks, if you won't make any significant improvements with fast spaced beats and won't be feeling comfortable it most likely means that this method is just not your cup of tea.
CXu
Fuck mech keyboards (allthough I suck at singletapping and streams, so maybe not :P )
Also, fuck DT \o\.
Very unhelpful post, k.
Topic Starter
G0r
Well, if it makes anyone feel any better about giving advice on the subject, I have encountered some maps that are fast enough at normal speed to cause this problem. There was a recently released map that was something like 255 BPM, and I found that I was completely unable to single tap the spaced single beats. I don't care about the mod so much as I care about the skill of being able to hit these sorts of notes at these sorts of speeds.

I'm going to check out the mentioned Kirby Mix maps, but I feel that my single tap is already pretty darn fast. I'm not saying I'm N0tashy, but I think I could be getting to the point where it is unreasonable for me to expect myself to single tap much faster.

That brings up a good question, though. Do any of you very fast players actually single tap singles that come up at these crazy speeds?

For reference, I can't DT this song: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/54675 I feel like I really should be able to, though. I can hit everything in the song. I can read everything in the song. I feel like it doesn't tax me very much. However, I cannot hit all the singles in the song without missing some or getting fifties on some, since I have to alternate to actually hit them all, and I suck at that. I just don't believe that I could ever be able to accurately single tap these singles.

I'll try to throw one of my replays on Youtube to show one of my playthroughs on that map on DT.
Amefuri Koneko
picked some maps for you to train singletaps :)
I think pretty much every decent player can singletap them with enough practice and stamina
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/13686
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/58970
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/43827
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/108297 (this one has pretty hard spacing though)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/92716 (probably easiest from a list)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/135142
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/39153
Topic Starter
G0r
I'll go give them a try.

Edit: Just off of the first five, I can say that I feel that I can't accurately singletap these yet, so I am going to give them a lot of practice. I don't feel that they are beyond my skill to do right now, but maybe one or two are. I suppose that I'll just have to keep increasing my singletap speed until I can FC these without having trouble.

Edit: Tried them all now. I had a couple of the remaining ones. But I'm really editing again, because I just wanted to add that I greatly appreciate your advice. :)
winber1

G0r wrote:

That brings up a good question, though. Do any of you very fast players actually single tap singles that come up at these crazy speeds?
I have not really tried single tapping things like "With a Dance Number" or "No,39" the whole way through, largely because I don't need to, and I'm pretty sure I'd do worse just because my accuracy starts to go to shit at that point. However, I will still single tap things up to things like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55626 when I'm really warmed up (though some patterns I will switch in between alternating and single tapping. Once you get repeating 1/2 hitcircles it gets really hard). I was doing it a while ago, except I didn't try to go for FC or anything, and now my wrist is messed up so I'm not even playing right now anymore lol.

So, unless I'm too lazy to get warmed up, which does happen a lot (in which case I just HR stuff lol), I will single tap all my DT's that I do upwards to at least 270 BPM.

This is using z/x on black widow by the way (I also bottom out. Some people have said bottoming out may not be the most efficient use of my energy, but whatever. If I don't bottom out everything feels all weird and my accuracy gets worse)

But speed really doesn't say anything about streaming ability still imo, cuz honestly I still can't do shit on streaming. There are maps people have DT'ed that I'm just like wtfa;sjfalwfnhow2streamteachmeplz
Mesita
as you said, you have to slowly build up your speed. I started at 135 bpm dt, and now i'm able to play (not always fc) 200 bpm dt (singletap only... streams probably for very short periods).

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/34097 //no dt
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/29691 //no dt
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/15486 //dt
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23734 //dt
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25947 //dt (souls of the world)
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41686 //no dt

Some people can go faster, so first try to play this songs. Good luck.
Topic Starter
G0r
I kind of feel like one of the things against me being able to singletap at these high speeds is that I singletap on my mouse click. I've always done it that way. I basically can't use my arm to help me tap faster, because it's only the muscles that control my finger that I can use to click with. It makes me wonder if there are mouse only players who singletap that fast.

Again, thank you for the excellent input, Mesita and Winber.
JAKACHAN

G0r wrote:

That brings up a good question, though. Do any of you very fast players actually single tap singles that come up at these crazy speeds?
Tom94 can singletap 320 I can singletap around 300. I singletap things such as no,39 and With a Dance Number.
Topic Starter
G0r
I think you're both full keyboard players, though. :\ Think it can be done with mouse clicks?
winber1
Imo, the mouse click does not seem much harder at all to click than a mech keyboard. So theoretically, it's not like impossible to go up to that BPM (though still takes some practice), but moving your mouse along with clicking at that speed is extremely challenging.
Tanzklaue

winber1 wrote:

Imo, the mouse click does not seem much harder at all to click than a mech keyboard. So theoretically, it's not like impossible to go up to that BPM (though still takes some practice), but moving your mouse along with clicking at that speed is extremely challenging.
it's nearly impossible. the higher the speed, the higher the force and the more your mouse will shake under the pressure. you just can't aim if you reach a certain speed, unless you are a god among the mouse users.
Topic Starter
G0r
Maybe I should go with a combination of practicing single tap mouse click and alternating mouse with x. :\
Mythras
just play fast maps (and maps on DT) all day, i was finally able to DT a map i thought was 100% impossible a few months ago.

it's like tribes man, GOTTA GO FAST

skill builds up without you noticing, and all the sudden you're like how the fuck did that happen?

orz (i'm much closer to your skill level than the people posting in this thread so maybe my advice will matter)
Topic Starter
G0r
Your advice certainly does matter! Normally I'd agree with you, and I am making great improvements in my singletapping. I never thought I'd be able to singletap my mouse like I do now. However... I can't help but keep feeling that there must be a limit, and it'd be really nice if I didn't feel like I was the only one trying to singletap my mouse this fast, lol. My natural inclination keeps telling me to switch to alternating on the fast singles, but the shame of it is that I hardly ever improve at that skill, because I never get the chance to practice it like I practice singletap.

Anyway, I guess I'd just love to hear from someone who had the same kind of experience and uses something close to the same style. Here's hoping, lol.
Remonwater
ask nrii, he plays click x as well and is probably the best at it
his speed is fast enough to pass http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23507 insane diff + dt with ~89% accuracy
kriers
^hi Alex

The most common problem associated with single-tapping is lack of coordination and syncronization with the rythm. Your max speed might not always be the speed that you can conciously control, so let yourself drop to a more comfortable speed that you may actually get a good accuracy on before moving further up in BPM.

I'm a really slow player, but I make up for it with precision and timing. In fact, knowing exactly what you're doing makes you quite a lot faster with more stamina as well.
nrii_old

kriers wrote:

^hi Alex
i didnt know alex had this account, hi alex
lolcubes
Biggest issue when singleclicking with mouse is that your cursor becomes unstable. Atleast for me. This needs alot of training.
Also, have you tried alternating on keyboard? After a couple of months of practice it finally starts to pay off for me, stuff which is hard to singletap - I change to alternate and suddenly it's so much easier.

Oh and why did nobody post http://osu.ppy.sh/s/20201 (no dt) and http://osu.ppy.sh/s/32889 (dt) yet? Those maps are great for singletapping.
I don't DT much, and I almost never DT for ranked score because I am just not good enough, however I can FC some stuff from time to time, and mostly using alternating when doing so.
Remonwater

nrii wrote:

kriers wrote:

^hi Alex
i didnt know alex had this account, hi alex
i'm not alex but i'm a friend of his :)
AdRon Zh3Ro
nrii_old

N y a r u k o wrote:

i'm not alex but i'm a friend of his :)

kevin?

on topic i do click x at a high level and can also alternate with it, and having a tablet and being able to alternate with that too i can safely say click x is stupid comparatively when being used for alternating on dts. the best way i deal with hard to hit sections is i do everything as a double. if theres a square i treat it as 2 sets of 2 notes, one where i do a click and x jump to a corner, then i move to other corner and do a click and x jump to the other corner. if i just treat it as "4 notes" i'll always end up curving my mouse and missing, same for regular patterns. dunno if this will help you but it lets me hit some huge jumps/patterns while alternating click+x
Remonwater

nrii wrote:

N y a r u k o wrote:

i'm not alex but i'm a friend of his :)

kevin?
yea :roll:
odd how you know my name :oops:
AdRon Zh3Ro
Also, you can always try some easy maps.
Tom69_old

G0r wrote:

I think you're both full keyboard players, though. :\ Think it can be done with mouse clicks?
I'm afraid not. At first I was playing mouse only, having problems with 250+ aswell. Then when I switched to tablet I was playing with tap for singles and z/x for streams up until like 3 months ago. Didn't exceed the 250-260 border aswell.

The issue is simple: When singletapping with the hand you are aiming with, you can't use your arm to singletap. You have to use your fingers or your aim becomes crap. This essentially means: Your singletaps aren't (a lot) faster than your stream speed with that hand.

When you singletap with your left hand however you can completely ditch aim and just hammer the button with your whole arm. It doesn't look as spectacular as one might think though. What you are doing is basicly:
#1 stiffen your main finger
#2 rotate your arm around the point in the middle of your wrist and your elbow. Hard to explain, gonna make a Vid for you:
I first start with normal singletaps going faster till I have to use my arm. As I just woke up it's pretty slow though probably.

Also: This map is very good for practicing singles. It starts out at 260 BPM and goes up until 320.
IA - Nisemono Chuuihou [Death Collab]
And this map is very good for practiving what aevv said:
Itou Kanako - Hacking to the Gate + DT (the squares at the beginning)
Purple
Yes, Tom is right. Your finger speed will always be slower than your arm movement, which means that switching to a keyboard will let you go faster.

Keep in mind that if you reach a "threshold" on your single-tapping/streaming speed, your body might be limiting you; therefore, gaining more experience by playing OSU is not going to help you. You would then have to start doing IRL exercises with your fingers and arm, gain more energy, blah blah blah, all that fun stuff. This goes for all players, not just OP.
winber1

Tom94 wrote:

IA - Nisemono Chuuihou [Death Collab]
aww yeahhhhh

I now feel useful in life.
Defacer
­
Topic Starter
G0r
Hey, guys. Just wanted to let you know that I read all of your posts, and I only held back from posting again, because I wanted to give myself time to try some new things, particularly a few suggestions from Aevv/Nrii, and most of the maps that you guys have provided. Thanks again for all of it. I can honestly say that I am once again feeling like I am improving. These maps are excellent for practice, and I particularly am seeing good results when I treat single sets like sets of doubles, like Aevv was talking about. I am still experimenting with times when I can use the x key to help me out on hard combos, and through practice I have actually seen my mouse clicking speed increase noticeably from where it was, and I feel like my control is better too. I have also continued to work on my rhythm on slow maps for a short time when I am warming up, and this has helped as well. Big thanks to Kriers for reminding me to work on rhythm this way. Sometimes I just don't want to slow down! XD

Above all, though, I think that feeling like I'm not the only one who's experienced these difficulties is really what has given me confidence to keep experimenting to keep improving. I'm going to keep at it, and I'll see how much better I can get before hitting a snag again. This community is awesome! Feel free to keep discussing, of course. I'll come back and post more when I've noticed any more changes.
threenash

excellionn wrote:

nrii wrote:

kevin?
yea :roll:
odd how you know my name :oops:
what
Wishy
Best way to be good at fast DTs:

Get good gear. A nice mechanical keyboard to begin with, a tablet may be good for you too.

Play DTs you can barely pass, don't play those super easy DTs where you get #98375 for DT HD SSH. those are worthless.

Try to find some standard that will mark whats challenging to you, I remember some friends and me used Cookiezi as an standard, like if he could DT FC we should be able to clear. I'd suggest you to use BPM as a standard, unless your fingers are already insanely fast.

Occasionally try to get some DT FCs on somewhat challenging maps where you always get 3/4 misses (unless it's that kind of map where there is DAT PATTERN you can't do at all on DT). Sounds dumb but that actually requires you to be somewhat regular on your gameplay, which is something your need here since all that matters is FC.
thelewa
Wishy22 you have your standards too low. You should've aimed to FC everything that cookiezi FC'd. Imagine how good you would be.
Wishy
Funny thing is that even when we used that standard, after a few months we couldn't even clear Cookiezi's DTs. :c
Topic Starter
G0r
Woh, my thread is back. Anyway, I guess I'll give an update, since it is here. Firstly, Wishy, I've actually always done what you are saying about setting a standard. I think it's great advice. I have a lot of standards that I use in conjunction with each other right now, and I am always updating them to push my limits further. What I've done now, though, is also set mechanical standards, to a degree, so I can try to perfectly execute alternations and such. It's working.

As for the update, I am so much better than I was when I made this thread. I can now actually do a lot of the techniques I discussed with Aevv. I'm finding myself mechanically switching keys much more smoothly, and relying less on always single clicking for combinations. Best of all, my single click speed is way up! I actually passed a 140 something BPM map on DT the other night on a map where most of the top scores were hidden. It wasn't FC, but my FC's are getting better too. I can now play Hardrock! I used to suck awfully at it, but I've been able to HD HR some good stuff lately. I am now putting a lot of attention into improving accuracy on HD HR, and overall accuracy. One of my biggest problems is that I still tense up my arm and hand muscles to try to grip harder when I play fast, like on DT, but I am finding that I can consciously make the decision to relax, and then I aim about five times better, and I free up my muscles to click at a speed that I really didn't think I could do. I still can't control it at the speeds that I am trying to attain, but I can play them now, and that's the first step. Some of the practice maps from this thread are still owning me every time, so I have a lot of work to do.

I hope this is instructional for others. Thank you for the advice, Wishy, although I don't think switching to a tablet would helps my woes. I am a click/x mouse player, and I don't think I'd ever want to adjust to playing tap/x on a tablet. As for a mech keyboard, I have some interest in it, but I feel that getting one for clicking just one key isn't warranted for me yet. I need to improve my use of that key first.
Wishy
Even if you use only one key, my single tapping actually got better (my endurance improved) instantly after getting a mechanical keyboard. It won't be a big help like it is to z/x players, but it will indeed help you a bit, plus it's really comfortable to use. :p
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