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Proposal: new scoring system for mods

posted
Total Posts
141
darkmiz
407 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
darkmiz
Okay, seeing all the threads discussing FL mods, DT vs FL and pp farming, I decided to make one ultimate topic to debate the scoring system.

First of all, pp (performance points) was supposed to be unfarmable, but the fact is they are being farmed by Hidden and Flashlight.

Click the spoiler box below to see the reasons why DT and HR are superior in judging skill, and why FL and HD are the farmable mods:

SPOILER
Accuracy: DT and HR decreases the time window to hit accurate notes (300s), and approach circle rate is faster. This makes it harder to get high accuracy with DT/HR.

Skill: FL and HD only require you to remember the position or timing of the notes, thus it can be easily achieved with enough plays (farming).
So I propose new score multipliers: Double Time (x1.26), Hard Rock (x1.13), Flashlight (x1.08), Hidden (x1.04)

This is only an example, but the below rules must apply:

Rule 1: DT > HR + FL + HD
WHY? Because DT is the hardest mod, the only mod to speed the bpm of the song. This makes some songs (bpm >200) impossible with DT, but still playable with HR + FL + HD. It is also the only mod to break the AR 10 limit, making maps with AR > 8 impossible with DT.

Rule 2: HR > FL + HD
WHY? Because HR not only has smaller circles, but also increases OD, making it harder to get high accuracy, and the approach circle rate is faster.

Rule 3: FL > HD
The position of notes is clearly harder to memorize than the timing, you can't see the whole screen but you can still listen to the music rhythm.

Now, before you Flashlight players start flaming me, please note that I do not deny that FL needs skill, it's just that "Flashlight skill" is simply how much effort you put into "memorizing". I'm sure Cookiezi and other pro players can FL every song if they want, just give them enough time.
Last edited by darkmiz , edited 1 time in total.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

darkmiz wrote:

Accuracy: DT and HR decreases the time window to hit accurate notes (300s), and approach circle rate is faster. This makes it harder to get high accuracy with DT/HR.

Skill: FL and HD only require you to remember the position or timing of the notes, thus it can be easily achieved with enough plays (farming).
You can't farm FL unless it's <300combo on relatively easy songs and most songs are DTable with enough plays, as is passing any map in existence.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Pp is not being "farmed". The higher ranked players use skill-requiring mods, which makes them rank higher than you. If you call that "farming" then I can't really help you.

Internally per-mod difficulty adjustments are already present in pp calculations, but these will not be made public.

You can continue to discuss this but apart from tweaks to pp calculations I have no intent of ever changing the ranking system again.
darkmiz
407 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
darkmiz

peppy wrote:

Pp is not being "farmed". The higher ranked players use skill-requiring mods, which makes them rank higher than you. If you call that "farming" then I can't really help you.

Internally per-mod difficulty adjustments are already present in pp calculations, but these will not be made public.

You can continue to discuss this but apart from tweaks to pp calculations I have no intent of ever changing the ranking system again.
Thanks peppy for the fast response, but you still need to define the weight of the "skill-requiring mods". Which is why I propose the new system. You can see from my post why I consider some mods "easier" than other mods, why they should be nerfed.
Last edited by darkmiz , edited 1 time in total.
Valentiino
1,945 posts
Joined June 2011
Valentiino
And this change would require stat wipes on all beatmaps :I
darkmiz
407 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
darkmiz

Valentiino wrote:

And this change would require stat wipes on all beatmaps :I
I don't see a problem. This isn't the first time score multipliers have been changed.
Fennekin
6 posts
Joined May 2012
Fennekin
I like the new rank system it is quite accurate to the atual "skill" someone is showing.
I was rank 48.000
and are now 43.000
My old rank was quite accurate because i only Played the maps i could barely manage and ranked up slower because of that ^^.
So it actually fits my pp.
i'm quite happy with the way it is now ^^.
All i have to do now is improve and i will be soon one of the best osu Players :3.

I personally think flashlight and hidden are extreme hard mods and they deserve the skill.
i will never be able to Play with hidden :/ (or not anytime soon)
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

JappyBabes wrote:

You can't farm FL unless it's <300combo on relatively easy songs and most songs are DTable with enough plays, as is passing any map in existence.
Wrong. Any map is possible to FL, if you can FC no mod, then you can FC using Flashlight if you play the map enough times. Like it or not this is true, while getting DT FC on many maps is just IMPOSSIBLE (do you think anyone ever will be able to DT something like Homework Crisis?).

This discussion won't go anywhere though since peppy refuses to give the information required to actually proceed with this. Still FL won't make you a pro, neither will Hidden, we all know who the pros are and /care about FL scores. http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40440 <-- #1 = Niko, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24325 <-- #1 = Cookiezi, who cares about FL lol.
darkmiz
407 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
darkmiz

Wishy22 wrote:

This discussion won't go anywhere though since peppy refuses to give the information required to actually proceed with this. Still FL won't make you a pro, neither will Hidden, we all know who the pros are and /care about FL scores. http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40440 <-- #1 = Niko, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24325 <-- #1 = Cookiezi, who cares about FL lol.
pp cares about FL scores, because they have higher rank and better accuracy. So those FL scores earn more pp than DT scores. So Cookiezi and real pros lose to those FL players. That's the current peppy's "unfarmable system".
Last edited by darkmiz , edited 1 time in total.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes
So you think that the top should be comprised of people like you that only DT/HR?
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
You can farm at any ranking system, this just makes it harder. Only good ranking system would be something where you play in real time against other players, like a ladder system.

JappyBabes wrote:

So you think that the top should be comprised of people like you that only DT/HR?
He means that if someone's bored enough and decides to waste 15 hours a day getting #1 using FL beating the best players, then the guy could be top ranked and he would still be a 3rd rate player, since he can't beat anyone without playing each map hundreds of times. Even while it's remarkable to have such determination, it still doesn't make you the best.
JAKACHAN
684 posts
Joined March 2011
JAKACHAN

darkmiz wrote:

Rule 1: DT > HR + FL + HD
WHY? Because DT is the hardest mod, the only mod to speed the bpm of the song. This makes some songs (bpm >200) impossible with DT, but still playable with HR + FL + HD. It is also the only mod to break the AR 10 limit, making maps with AR > 8 impossible with DT.

Go HR any song with circles as small as Oblivion or smaller and then talk to me. Just because a song isn't doable with DT but is doable with HR doesn't mean it's a harder mod overall. There's a difference between what is humanly possible and what is hard.

INB4 Go DT Chipscape
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I always said:

DT bonus should be based on base AR, BPM and OD.
HR bonus should be based on base AR, OD and CS.
FL bonus should be base on maximum combo.
Hidden should give a fixed low bonus since it's a mod used with every other mod and doesn't really make much of a difference imo.

It is true though that DT is, overall, the hardest mod, since you can HR almost everything (believe it or not, I've seen a few players HR stuff with almost the hardest CS), but still you can't DT over certain BPM since it's just impossible, or some jumpy maps just become way too hard.
JAKACHAN
684 posts
Joined March 2011
JAKACHAN

Wishy22 wrote:

I always said:

DT bonus should be based on base AR, BPM and OD.
HR bonus should be based on base AR, OD and CS.
FL bonus should be base on maximum combo.
Hidden should give a fixed low bonus since it's a mod used with every other mod and doesn't really make much of a difference imo.
I've said this to multiple people as well.

I still disagree with DT being the hardest mod just because some songs are physically impossible due to speed. That has nothing to do with it being hard.
-----
257 posts
Joined June 2008
-----
um...darkmiz...I read your words but don't know what you're talking about 0.0
1. pp was never "farmable" according to the info on osu!wiki. You can never play the same map again and again to claim a higher position based of the ranking method based on the amount of pp as opposed to the old one using total score :3

2. Only a player who hold a really high position record can improve the rank. If by "farmable" you mean by playing newly ranked maps constantly and get really high position records and pp increase, only to be bumped down from later pro records out there, I don't see a problem.

3. If you were to point out the unfairness of the score multiplier for mods, that can cause one's skill to be faultily assessed by position of a map and, ultimately influence a player's pps and therefore ranks (which you seems to point out on latter half of your post), than yeah i definatly agree we need a discussion of this, but how does it have something to do with pp?

I hope we can set a standard of multiplier number for taiko and ctb too, since the skillset required for the 3 mods is different, so do the difficulty mods for them too 0.0
Last edited by ----- , edited 1 time in total.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Okay, how about you guys fight it out to give me multipliers for the "skill" of each mod, and I will compare them to what I have :P. Tell me when you reach a consensus (haha).
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

JAKANYAN wrote:

I still disagree with DT being the hardest mod just because some songs are physically impossible due to speed. That has nothing to do with it being hard.
Some maps that are extremely easy (where you get like all top 100 on DT) may be, indeed, considered harder on HR, since you gotta play high AR on low BPM + bigger OD increase. But when talking about ANY somewhat hard map, then HR is WAY easier.

I tend to consider DT harder overall since you do have impossible to DT maps, but on HR the maximum you can reach is just VERY hard thing to HR. And the cases where HR is actually WAY TOO HARD and DT is easily doable are really just a few. The only reason some maps become, overall, harder to HR than DT, is because of AR 10 (LOTS of players have issues doing AR 10, but do just fine on AR 8 DT), and well you got some cases that CS is just too hard, but those aren't too many, and since we're talking about overall...

Still as we both said, bonuses should have a bigger/smaller reward depending on the map, so we somewhat agree. xd
Last edited by Wishy , edited 1 time in total.
darkmiz
407 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
darkmiz

----- wrote:

um...darkmiz...I read your words but don't know what you're talking about 0.0
1. pp was never "farmable" according to the info on osu!wiki. You can never play the same map again and again to claim a higher position based of the ranking method based on the amount of pp as opposed to the old one using total score :3

2. Only a player who hold a really high position record can improve the rank. If by "farmable" you mean by playing newly ranked maps constantly and get really high position records and pp increase, only to be bumped down from later pro records out there, I don't see a problem.

3. If you were to point out the unfairness of the score multiplier for mods, that can cause one's skill to be faultily assessed by position of a map and, ultimately influence a player's pps and therefore ranks (which you seems to point out on latter half of your post), than yeah i definatly agree we need a discussion of this, but how does it have something to do with pp?

I hope we can set a standard of multiplier number for taiko and ctb too, since the skillset required for the 3 mods is different, so do the difficulty mods for them too 0.0
http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/images/d/d6/Perf ... points.png

pp takes the score rank and accuracy into account, which is affected by mods.

For example http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24325
The FL scores earn more pp than DT scores. If DT score multiplier > FL, this would not happen.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
The PP system may be already doing something like adding an accuracy bonus if you use DT, or making something like OD*Accuracy. xd
-Athena-
1,414 posts
Joined June 2011
-Athena-
I'm happy with pp as it is.

It gets very accurate the higher you go in the rankings. Some still top 40 normals/hards to farm it, but they never get too high up in the rankings. So I'm happy with that.

The current multipliers are also fair if you ask me.
-----
257 posts
Joined June 2008
-----

Wishy22 wrote:

The PP system may be already doing something like adding an accuracy bonus if you use DT, or making something like OD*Accuracy. xd
haha...that's a possibilty :p
but we don't know the formula so we would never know how much they're gonna affect the pp on a single map 0.0
or it could be only 2 or 3 points adding toward a record :p
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

-Athena- wrote:

I'm happy with pp as it is.

It gets very accurate the higher you go in the rankings. Some still top 40 normals/hards to farm it, but they never get too high up in the rankings. So I'm happy with that.

The current multipliers are also fair if you ask me.
Including halftime?

Here's some multipliers: Half time * 0
Easy * 2
DT *1.12
HD * 1.04
FL * 1.08
HR * 1.08
FL + HR * 1.14
FL + HD + HR * 1.18
DT + HD * 1.18
DT + HR * 1.18
DT + HD + HR * 1.22
DT + HD + HR + FL * 1.26
HT + Easy + HD + FL * 219

any others should just be additive.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
Uhm...

Honestly, I wouldn't change the score multipliers. Flashlight is an extremely hard mod IMO, since u need to be very accurate and have to remember every single note, especially when playing with hidden. I don't know why the effort someone puts in that shouldn't be rewarded.
About Hidden an Hard Rock, I myself just can't play with HR (due to the high AR and the Drain orz), but can do well with HD. However I often read in this Forum or heard elsewhere that someone has real problems with HD, but almost none with HR. I think that really only depends on the player.

About the pp.
As -Athena- said, the PP-ranks get more accurate the better one gets
They can't be farmed at all. Sure, it's possible to SS Hard and Normal maps with Hidden and Flashlight, but you don't get enough pp from such maps to be in the top ranks. Even if the Top Flashlight Players manage to FC some Insane Songs, that won't be enough to get as much pp as White Wolf, Niko- or whoever has.
Chewin
osu! Alumni
4,082 posts
Joined December 2010
Chewin
Peppy..
Simply couldn't you add the "Performance" and keep the "Score" on the top of f9 when it's written "Location/Rank/World Zone"?
I mean:



There are some players (including me) that have farmed score for months.
Meh, this thing about the score should be managed more carefully and not as a "random" thing to add in the game replacing randomly the "score" ranking with "performance" one. What srsly.

I'm sorry if it's OT but I don't want to open a topic for this since I can bet that it will be closed and ignored.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

Chewin wrote:

Peppy..
Simply couldn't you add the "Performance" and keep the "Score" on the top of f9 when it's written "Location/Rank/World Zone"?
I mean:



There are some players (including me) that have farmed score for months.
Meh, this thing about the score should be managed more carefully and not as a "random" thing to add in the game replacing randomly the "score" ranking with "performance" one. What srsly.

I'm sorry if it's OT but I don't want to open a topic for this since I can bet that it will be closed and ignored.
score so important
Chewin
osu! Alumni
4,082 posts
Joined December 2010
Chewin

fartownik wrote:

Chewin wrote:

Peppy..
Simply couldn't you add the "Performance" and keep the "Score" on the top of f9 when it's written "Location/Rank/World Zone"?
I mean:



There are some players (including me) that have farmed score for months.
Meh, this thing about the score should be managed more carefully and not as a "random" thing to add in the game replacing randomly the "score" ranking with "performance" one. What srsly.

I'm sorry if it's OT but I don't want to open a topic for this since I can bet that it will be closed and ignored.
score so important
I know that it isn't important. But it's just to be correct/right with other players that have farmed score. That's all.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

darkmiz wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/images/d/d6/Performancepoints.png

pp takes the score rank and accuracy into account, which is affected by mods.

For example http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24325
The FL scores earn more pp than DT scores. If DT score multiplier > FL, this would not happen.
what makes you think it isnt like that already?
do you have any way to show us that the FL scores actually give more pp than the DT scores?
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
FL and HD may make the map harder to read but they don't increase the skill requirements at all which is why hr and DT should weigh more in the rankings imo.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Wishy22 wrote:

Wrong. Any map is possible to FL, if you can FC no mod, then you can FC using Flashlight if you play the map enough times. Like it or not this is true, while getting DT FC on many maps is just IMPOSSIBLE (do you think anyone ever will be able to DT something like Homework Crisis?).

This discussion won't go anywhere though since peppy refuses to give the information required to actually proceed with this. Still FL won't make you a pro, neither will Hidden, we all know who the pros are and /care about FL scores. http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40440 <-- #1 = Niko, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24325 <-- #1 = Cookiezi, who cares about FL lol.
I tried to FL a map and I played it for many many hours. The result was that I could FL the 100 first notes.

FL is not that easy :(
OsuMe65
1,519 posts
Joined May 2011
OsuMe65
consider the CTB players...

for me, DT and HR are the hardest mods
[DT boosts the BPM while the HR controls the "SV" of falling fruits...]

it's impossible to HR a map with high SV...
T_T
[HR controls the CTB Game...]
G0r
389 posts
Joined September 2011
G0r

jesse1412 wrote:

Easy * 2
This makes me giggle. XD
Winshley
osu! Alumni
2,384 posts
Joined May 2011
Winshley

jesse1412 wrote:

HT + Easy + HD + FL * 219
I know this is an accidental typo, but this is the best multiplier ever. :P
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
It isn't, Easy is probably the hardest mod ever.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
its easier than hr or fl on 90% of the songs for me
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

silmarilen wrote:

its easier than hr or fl on 90% of the songs for me
try hard rock gold dust then give it a go with easy, see which one you miss more on.
Glass
Glass
+this:

Wishy22 wrote:

DT bonus should be based on base AR, BPM and OD.
HR bonus should be based on base AR, OD and CS.
FL bonus should be base on maximum combo.
Hidden should give a fixed low bonus since it's a mod used with every other mod and doesn't really make much of a difference imo.
because currently:
FL too easy on short maps
DT too easy on low BPM maps
HR is just overall frustrating for the little score it gives
Hidden is easy as ever except on maps with 0 stacking leniency like Haru Haru

also massive facepalm at OP, how do you "farm" FL HD when it takes about 100 plays to get a good score(not counting TVsized bullshit we all know its easy) meanwhile it takes about 4 retries to get a score with DT HD??
Last edited by Glass , edited 3 times in total.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert

Wishy22 wrote:

DT bonus should be based on base AR, BPM and OD.
HR bonus should be based on base AR, OD and CS.
FL bonus should be base on maximum combo.
Hidden should give a fixed low bonus since it's a mod used with every other mod and doesn't really make much of a difference imo.
Sounds good

Some additions from me:
FL scores should be probably based on CS too
Also FL+HD very often is just ALOT harder then FL (you press stuff in the abyss). Probably some other additional multiplying needs to be here
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
I think people should just stop being cheating douchebags with HD+FL M $w$ ye
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF

jesse1412 wrote:

Easy * 2
haha what the hell xD
i play easy mod all the time and get much better scores on maps with it than I could without (see chocobo and pacific rim imitation network). it gives almost no pp and rightfully so
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
If you're the guy who FC Chocobo on Easy + Hidden then trust me you are skilled enough to be in the top 10.
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