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Enforce a minimum beatmapset total playtime

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dennischan
I agree with the concerns that Rolniczy has bought up. After communicating with Rolniczy, we have decided to suggest a different rule to limit excessive cuts which do not contribute much to the ranked section.

Rule writeup -
"A cut song must not be shorter than 1 minute, and it must additionally not be less than 50% of the original song. This is to prevent excessive cuts which do not provide enough content to the ranked section.

Official TV sizes are exempted from this rule as they are cuts produced by the artist themselves.


This rule can prevent excessive cuts better than the proposed rule and it also allows interesting short songs to still reach ranked unimpeded. It also prevents maps with excessively cut songs from circumventing the proposed regulation by just making more difficulties.

The main objection to this would be that it bans TV size. As we all know, TV size anime maps are often among the most played maps and banning them would cause many players disappointment and anger. Therefore, to alleviate this problem, we suggested to exempt official TV size cuts to allow mappers to continue making these interesting and engaging maps.
QuiescentRabbit
Don't exempt just TV sizes but any official cuts by the artist themselves. A good example would be songs from rhythm games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9vkrmbYiDo is technically a cut of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koY4VSycPa4 but that's because it's for another rhythm game.
dennischan
Yea the actual wording can be changed, this is just a rough draft for people to refer to.

Something like the actual percentage allowed to be cut and the time required can also be changed according to vote or community input
shardex
I guess this proposal should exclude songs compilations for more clarification (unless someone has a word for this)
Daletto
I think Ephemeral made a good suggestion from my point of view.
celerih
I actually p much disagree with this, feels like it's trying to block one specific set without really considering the impact on other stuff. If an artist makes a calm short song I don't see why you should be forced to create a ton of diffs for it, especially when these calmer songs don't necessarily have much to offer rhythm and creativity wise. Content bloat is a serious problem and this proposal wouldn't really help with that

Something much better would be to rule out cutting songs past a certain % or just disallow cutting stuff so it's shorter than 1min. It's already been made apparent that trying to rule out cutting stuff all together isn't gonna happen but we can at least try to avoid the really really bad abuse cases. Plus this proposal wouldn't even cover other really bad cuts like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/765778 which imo are just as bad as the stuff like uta intro ver
yaspo
Don't really see the issue here from a content perspective. Not a lot of content so it doesn't get a lot of attention, fairly logical? Nobody loses out here.
From an effort perspective, UC already said it, it groups those who just want to increase their ranked map count with those who want to actually do something, and that's harmful for the latter.
I find the suggestions to avoid drastic cuts like the one linked a better solution. In my opinion, the ideal approach would be to increase the minimum drain time to 1 minute unless the song is an original work and not a cut, remix or cover. That more or less covers your drain time thing, 3 1 minute diffs = 3 minute, and also ensures the map isn't over before it starts.
Noffy
A cut can not be over 50% of the full song if the resulting length is less than 1:45. This does not apply to official cuts or recreations of official cuts.

What this prevents : cutting songs to extremely short lengths
what this allows: cutting songs to typical rhythm game lengths (~2m), and any amount of cutting so long as a minimum of the song is kept in tact.
two minute songs can then be cut to one minute still, but five minute songs can not as it is doubtful the structural integrity or appeal of the song would be kept.
This way would avoid being too harsh, as it is not uncommon to cut four minute and a half songs to tv size-like length, which is still capable of maintaining song structure (intro-verse-chorus-outro). BUT this would disallow excessive cuts of longer songs such as cutting a five minute song to a 30 second chorus section.
celerih
I could not agree more with what Noffy is proposing, this seems like the perfect way to handle cuts while still leaving the option to make cuts of similar lengths to be like other rhythm game stuff
Nao Tomori
1:45 is not tv size. I make most tv size from full mp3 to get a better ending usually, this would stop me from that. Putting number limits on these kinds of things is dumb anyway, for example pan de peace has an opening song 30 seconds long, so if someone tried to rank a set using a cut from the full version which sounds more natural, that would still be disallowed. But using a worse sounding official release is allowed.
This also wouldn't be a "recreation" because those cuts don't use the TV size label.

The rule should put judgement on to BNs rather than trying to quantify it, that way these things can be discussed rather than having some rule pointed at and misunderstood constantly like will happen if this goes into effect.
Rolni
If you edit mp3 to imitate official tv cut on terms of its design, then there shouldnt be a problem with it because you're adjusting already existing cut but in your own way. Little differentiation is fine as long as there isn't major difference. Edits like https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/968570/discussion/-/generalAll#/999039 will be discouraged for example
Mao
I agree with many people in here in that I think the approach this proposal takes is not solving the underlying issue at all. Let's look into this bit by bit.

First of all enforcing a rule like this will promote bloating sets with filler difficulties. Can't rank you set because overall drain time is too short? Let's just add a Beginner and Advanced difficulty (which is not a lot of effort and something mappers will most likely do) and you are fine to go. We have kind of tried to avoid bloated spreads until now so this goes kind of against our current principles.

Second, in relation to my previous point, this will mostly punish mappers that care about having a well balanced spread on 30s songs they also might care about. If we take a map like the one that was linked in the OP for example, "low effort" things like this could still happen, just with 5 instead of 2 Easy difficulties. What you would actually achieve with a rule like this is that songs that have an actual target audience and therefore people who want to play them (e.g. short cartoon openings) that might not call for an Expert difficulty would either need a bloated spread or were not rankable at all, despite them adding reasonable content to the ranked section.

I think the issue we should actually be discussing instead are "lazy" cuts of songs that have long versions available or other edits of songs that are purposefully made to abuse the minimum drain time rule. Lanturn and I made an example some time ago of what could actually be done with the current ruleset (a map that's essentially just a stream) and things like this or minimum time cuts would not be stopped by a rule like this.

Also in case the rule should actually pass, 2:45 is ridiculous as it would not allow for actual E/N/H/I (which I consider full spreads) on 30s songs so the absolute maximum I'd go with a rule like this would be 2 minutes sharp.

Also strong +1 to Noffy
Mordred
would rather add a rule / guideline like "you must not cut more than 70% of the original audio file", filler diffs aren't gonna solve anything

basically agree with noffy
pimp
there was a rule preventing songs longer than a minute to be cut to less than a minute, i don't know when or why it was removed...
should be easier to implement something similar instead of that total playtime rule.
Full Tablet

Mordred wrote:

would rather add a rule / guideline like "you must not cut more than 70% of the original audio file", filler diffs aren't gonna solve anything

basically agree with noffy
That wouldn't work as a rule, take for example パインツリー - サニーミルクの紅霧異変 (Circle: UNDEAD CORPORATION) https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/nm19311262 which is 55 seconds of a piano intro, followed by 123 seconds of silence, and then 114 seconds of death metal. If you can only could cut 30% of the song, you would be left with too much silence in the audio file to make the beatmap rankable, making the song effectively unrankable.

The map that brought this matter into discussion is also an example where this wouldn't work https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/968570#fruits/2026676, the song has a calm piano intro, followed by metal. Someone wouldn't be able to map the intro of the song alone, even though artistically it could stand as a song on its own.
Vulkin
I think adding a BPM as a base for short songs would be better if youre that into this

Personally I dont like it cuz it would pretty much kill most R3 Music Box maps, even if theyre not that interesting
Nifty
Too many people think maps that can only support 30 notes as a top difficult can be considered interesting. I'm pretty sure a larger consensus can be reached when saying a 30 second map can be interesting if it can support a full spread, as Eph has stated.

I've also never came across any 30 second mapset that is anything to behold as anything more than low effort, SS-farming ranked fodder, so I would love this rule addition.

Note: A full spread meaning something like this, https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/961335#taiko/2012566, not like this, https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/958476#taiko/2006814.

I would not be against banning all r3 mapsets from being ranked in the future either.

Vulkin wrote:

Personally I dont like it cuz it would pretty much kill most R3 Music Box maps, even if theyre not that interesting
That's the point.

shardex wrote:

I guess this proposal should exclude songs compilations for more clarification (unless someone has a word for this)
What 30-second song compilations are you listening to?
Vuelo Eluko
As an extremely inconsistent player with shaky aim that is lucky to hit a 300 combo, I mostly agree with this change. However, I'd rather see more of a star rating or pp penalty to very short maps because dumb gimmick maps like Vivid are good for the memes. A map does not necessarily lack the merit or worthiness of being pushed through the ranking process simply because it is objectively short on real-time play value. You can have a quality experience that doesn't last very long, also I don't think osu! is optimizing a business model around keeping people playing long maps like some kind of subscription based mmo.

Anyway that's just my two cents. If a 20 second long map isn't worth the effort I would expect BN's to simply gloss over it. At the very least, they are easier to vet and assure quality by virtue of being shorter.
Stefan
The fact 'low effort' is used as arguement to disallow small and short mapsets like we have right now is hilarious at its finest.

Five minute difficulties are done in half an hour in certain cases, mapsets with +8 difficulties where the uploader has done two at max are a thing, and you rather mock about short mapsets having a short playtime?
Capu

Ephemeral wrote:

Establishing a minimum 'effort' cutoff via total beatmapset playtime addresses this issue, and ensures that every beatmapset that hits Ranked is at least offering players a reasonable variety of challenges to overcome.
In my honest opinion, this doesn't provide a good argumentation for given "issue". If the goal is to ensure, that a player has the option of overcoming a variety of challenges regarding the whole set, single diff marathons shouldn't be a thing as well. They're not offering content for the whole playerbase as well. Having a 5* 5minute marathon is most likely not enjoyed for 50% of the playerbase, since they do not provide challenges for all skill levels either, yet they are a valid thing.

I'd be more concerned about using super short songs in order to "farm" a number of ranked maps. Therefore it'd make more sense, to introduce some sort of "short songs ranked per (add reasonable time value here)" for every mapper.

Example:
I map a 30 second "set" with 2 or 3 diffs, which gets ranked on the 1st of July. With my previously mentioned idea in mind, my next small set with super low drain time would have to wait at least 3 months, in order to get ranked, which would be the 1st of October.

This would not force a mapper to make a bigger set, while decreasing the farmability for the ranked map counter. Many songs that feature a low drain time, just do not offer the kind of "flow" in order to really make a clean spread throughout the difficulties. This would much rather lead to 6 diffs being nearly the same, which would not form a good spread and drastically decrease the quality of the set in its whole. Other than that, some songs are just super good, yet extremely short. Why force the mapper to make 6 diffs of that same song, without the opportunity to even create a good spread in order to get the map ranked?

Furthermore, there are people that just enjoy very short maps. For whatever reason. Bringing the previously mentioned marathon argument up again, some people do not like long maps, yet they're totally fine to be ranked. (and once again, they're not even playable for a big amount of players, when the map reaches a certain difficulty level.)
Short maps are playable for everyone. No one is forced to play these maps, yet it is additional content. If the quality of given sets is good enough, they should be able to get ranked, aside from the low drain time.
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