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Enforce a minimum beatmapset total playtime

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KotoriIsMyWaifu

dennischan wrote:

Could it be possible to have two cut-off times depending on whether the song was cut or not?

It could be written like this -

You must have a total beatmapset playtime of at least 1:45.This is to prevent ranking low effort beatmapsets which add little to the ranking section.
However, if your song is cut, it must have a total beatmapset playtime of at least 2:45.


The potential benefit of wording it like this can be to allow interesting, uncut songs to reach rank easily while banning any cut songs which do not have enough musical variety and complexity for a full spread.

Xierra wrote:

I think this rule should only apply to Cut versions of songs, while actual short songs do not apply to this rule entirely. I think it's fair that way. :)
I agree with these. In the original post, it is also stated that most players tend to not care about 30 second piano pieces anyway, which is true. This new rule would mostly affect songs that are actually interesting enough to map or play but are very short such as https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1596064. I don't really understand why huge cuts of songs are allowed anyway (not counting official differences such as TV Size vs full version). As mentioned:

eiri- wrote:

instead of limiting songs are are actually short like shining star, which had to be extended to reach 30 seconds, it would be better to have a limitation as to how much can be cut from a song. because tbh if you're cutting more than 50 or 70% of a song then it just feels blatantly disrespectful to the artists that put time into making the entire song, and misrepresentative of what the song actually is, like was stated multiple times on the uta intro ver thread.
In conclusion, I generally agree with this rule but exceptions should be made for short, interesting songs. 30 second cuts of full songs just shouldn't be acceptable, though.
Rolni
I appreciate this finally got some attention, now it's time to clarify a bit more what were my original concerns I brought up in mapset you've mentioned with potential suggestions on what to change.

Your proposal could be working well but it tends to be useless in certain cases. If I'm about to make a 30 second mapset (whether it be original length or cut), in order to make it rankable with proposed changes all I need to do is just add some more diffs and all is good. Meanwhile this seems like perfect solution, this ruins the idea of making small sets for rather calmer songs, or songs which aren't really that various in terms of creating more interesting diffs. Would you find more interesting small mapset for calm song or bigger set potential for exact same song?

This leads to next thing I want to mention. Your proposal dismisses original concern I brought up here regarding drasticall song cut of a featured artist. While originally I used mappers' guild rules regarding official songs cut (which is somewhat acceptable if cut contains reasonable length, can be seen of FAQ tab on their website) which doesn't really involve mapper to obey them if outside of the guild, I feel that specific rule should be live on any song leading towards ranking section where major cutoff has place, as it is disrespectful towards artist and massively goes down on variety certain song provides, especially when this is a featured artist song. Which brings me to the proposal point I want to write down here (I'm not that good in wording my thoughts in foreign language but you should get my point):

  1. Avoid drastically shortening song's MP3. This is to ensure quality of a Ranked section with variety of songs. Meanwhile minor edits are acceptable, using major cut-offs of content created by artists should be discouraged.


While I have mixed feelings about point you brought up about mapsets which doesn't really add much into ranked section (having barely over a minute of total drain), in some cases there's nothing mapper can do about it, that's how the original song was designed so this may result in content bloat if were about to make at least 6 diffs for not that intense song. That's why this should be a bit more centered about song cuts overall instead of trying to go with the way you proposed.

Minor cuts like 5150 where you usually get rid of one verse & chorus section in rather long song (which is pretty popular nowadays) still can have place because their usage doesn't fully intend to get rid of all song content artist had created. While personally I don't fully support that, this seems to be a reasonable cut. Major cuts like Uta, with 30 seconds of length out of original 9 minutes (extreme case), or longlasting in most played Make a Move, with barely exceeding 50 seconds out of original 2:50 length (questionable case), should be discouraged.

Despite the thing I came up with quoting rules from mappers guild in original discussion post, I strongly believe the way cuts are being hold should be more strict, no matter if it's official featured artist song or not.

tl;dr major cuts bad, minor cuts good, total drain time proposal questionable
dennischan
I agree with the concerns that Rolniczy has bought up. After communicating with Rolniczy, we have decided to suggest a different rule to limit excessive cuts which do not contribute much to the ranked section.

Rule writeup -
"A cut song must not be shorter than 1 minute, and it must additionally not be less than 50% of the original song. This is to prevent excessive cuts which do not provide enough content to the ranked section.

Official TV sizes are exempted from this rule as they are cuts produced by the artist themselves.


This rule can prevent excessive cuts better than the proposed rule and it also allows interesting short songs to still reach ranked unimpeded. It also prevents maps with excessively cut songs from circumventing the proposed regulation by just making more difficulties.

The main objection to this would be that it bans TV size. As we all know, TV size anime maps are often among the most played maps and banning them would cause many players disappointment and anger. Therefore, to alleviate this problem, we suggested to exempt official TV size cuts to allow mappers to continue making these interesting and engaging maps.
QuiescentRabbit
Don't exempt just TV sizes but any official cuts by the artist themselves. A good example would be songs from rhythm games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9vkrmbYiDo is technically a cut of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koY4VSycPa4 but that's because it's for another rhythm game.
dennischan
Yea the actual wording can be changed, this is just a rough draft for people to refer to.

Something like the actual percentage allowed to be cut and the time required can also be changed according to vote or community input
shardex
I guess this proposal should exclude songs compilations for more clarification (unless someone has a word for this)
Daletto
I think Ephemeral made a good suggestion from my point of view.
celerih
I actually p much disagree with this, feels like it's trying to block one specific set without really considering the impact on other stuff. If an artist makes a calm short song I don't see why you should be forced to create a ton of diffs for it, especially when these calmer songs don't necessarily have much to offer rhythm and creativity wise. Content bloat is a serious problem and this proposal wouldn't really help with that

Something much better would be to rule out cutting songs past a certain % or just disallow cutting stuff so it's shorter than 1min. It's already been made apparent that trying to rule out cutting stuff all together isn't gonna happen but we can at least try to avoid the really really bad abuse cases. Plus this proposal wouldn't even cover other really bad cuts like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/765778 which imo are just as bad as the stuff like uta intro ver
yaspo
Don't really see the issue here from a content perspective. Not a lot of content so it doesn't get a lot of attention, fairly logical? Nobody loses out here.
From an effort perspective, UC already said it, it groups those who just want to increase their ranked map count with those who want to actually do something, and that's harmful for the latter.
I find the suggestions to avoid drastic cuts like the one linked a better solution. In my opinion, the ideal approach would be to increase the minimum drain time to 1 minute unless the song is an original work and not a cut, remix or cover. That more or less covers your drain time thing, 3 1 minute diffs = 3 minute, and also ensures the map isn't over before it starts.
Noffy
A cut can not be over 50% of the full song if the resulting length is less than 1:45. This does not apply to official cuts or recreations of official cuts.

What this prevents : cutting songs to extremely short lengths
what this allows: cutting songs to typical rhythm game lengths (~2m), and any amount of cutting so long as a minimum of the song is kept in tact.
two minute songs can then be cut to one minute still, but five minute songs can not as it is doubtful the structural integrity or appeal of the song would be kept.
This way would avoid being too harsh, as it is not uncommon to cut four minute and a half songs to tv size-like length, which is still capable of maintaining song structure (intro-verse-chorus-outro). BUT this would disallow excessive cuts of longer songs such as cutting a five minute song to a 30 second chorus section.
celerih
I could not agree more with what Noffy is proposing, this seems like the perfect way to handle cuts while still leaving the option to make cuts of similar lengths to be like other rhythm game stuff
Nao Tomori
1:45 is not tv size. I make most tv size from full mp3 to get a better ending usually, this would stop me from that. Putting number limits on these kinds of things is dumb anyway, for example pan de peace has an opening song 30 seconds long, so if someone tried to rank a set using a cut from the full version which sounds more natural, that would still be disallowed. But using a worse sounding official release is allowed.
This also wouldn't be a "recreation" because those cuts don't use the TV size label.

The rule should put judgement on to BNs rather than trying to quantify it, that way these things can be discussed rather than having some rule pointed at and misunderstood constantly like will happen if this goes into effect.
Rolni
If you edit mp3 to imitate official tv cut on terms of its design, then there shouldnt be a problem with it because you're adjusting already existing cut but in your own way. Little differentiation is fine as long as there isn't major difference. Edits like https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/968570/discussion/-/generalAll#/999039 will be discouraged for example
Mao
I agree with many people in here in that I think the approach this proposal takes is not solving the underlying issue at all. Let's look into this bit by bit.

First of all enforcing a rule like this will promote bloating sets with filler difficulties. Can't rank you set because overall drain time is too short? Let's just add a Beginner and Advanced difficulty (which is not a lot of effort and something mappers will most likely do) and you are fine to go. We have kind of tried to avoid bloated spreads until now so this goes kind of against our current principles.

Second, in relation to my previous point, this will mostly punish mappers that care about having a well balanced spread on 30s songs they also might care about. If we take a map like the one that was linked in the OP for example, "low effort" things like this could still happen, just with 5 instead of 2 Easy difficulties. What you would actually achieve with a rule like this is that songs that have an actual target audience and therefore people who want to play them (e.g. short cartoon openings) that might not call for an Expert difficulty would either need a bloated spread or were not rankable at all, despite them adding reasonable content to the ranked section.

I think the issue we should actually be discussing instead are "lazy" cuts of songs that have long versions available or other edits of songs that are purposefully made to abuse the minimum drain time rule. Lanturn and I made an example some time ago of what could actually be done with the current ruleset (a map that's essentially just a stream) and things like this or minimum time cuts would not be stopped by a rule like this.

Also in case the rule should actually pass, 2:45 is ridiculous as it would not allow for actual E/N/H/I (which I consider full spreads) on 30s songs so the absolute maximum I'd go with a rule like this would be 2 minutes sharp.

Also strong +1 to Noffy
Mordred
would rather add a rule / guideline like "you must not cut more than 70% of the original audio file", filler diffs aren't gonna solve anything

basically agree with noffy
pimp
there was a rule preventing songs longer than a minute to be cut to less than a minute, i don't know when or why it was removed...
should be easier to implement something similar instead of that total playtime rule.
Full Tablet

Mordred wrote:

would rather add a rule / guideline like "you must not cut more than 70% of the original audio file", filler diffs aren't gonna solve anything

basically agree with noffy
That wouldn't work as a rule, take for example パインツリー - サニーミルクの紅霧異変 (Circle: UNDEAD CORPORATION) https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/nm19311262 which is 55 seconds of a piano intro, followed by 123 seconds of silence, and then 114 seconds of death metal. If you can only could cut 30% of the song, you would be left with too much silence in the audio file to make the beatmap rankable, making the song effectively unrankable.

The map that brought this matter into discussion is also an example where this wouldn't work https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/968570#fruits/2026676, the song has a calm piano intro, followed by metal. Someone wouldn't be able to map the intro of the song alone, even though artistically it could stand as a song on its own.
Vulkin
I think adding a BPM as a base for short songs would be better if youre that into this

Personally I dont like it cuz it would pretty much kill most R3 Music Box maps, even if theyre not that interesting
Nifty
Too many people think maps that can only support 30 notes as a top difficult can be considered interesting. I'm pretty sure a larger consensus can be reached when saying a 30 second map can be interesting if it can support a full spread, as Eph has stated.

I've also never came across any 30 second mapset that is anything to behold as anything more than low effort, SS-farming ranked fodder, so I would love this rule addition.

Note: A full spread meaning something like this, https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/961335#taiko/2012566, not like this, https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/958476#taiko/2006814.

I would not be against banning all r3 mapsets from being ranked in the future either.

Vulkin wrote:

Personally I dont like it cuz it would pretty much kill most R3 Music Box maps, even if theyre not that interesting
That's the point.

shardex wrote:

I guess this proposal should exclude songs compilations for more clarification (unless someone has a word for this)
What 30-second song compilations are you listening to?
Vuelo Eluko
As an extremely inconsistent player with shaky aim that is lucky to hit a 300 combo, I mostly agree with this change. However, I'd rather see more of a star rating or pp penalty to very short maps because dumb gimmick maps like Vivid are good for the memes. A map does not necessarily lack the merit or worthiness of being pushed through the ranking process simply because it is objectively short on real-time play value. You can have a quality experience that doesn't last very long, also I don't think osu! is optimizing a business model around keeping people playing long maps like some kind of subscription based mmo.

Anyway that's just my two cents. If a 20 second long map isn't worth the effort I would expect BN's to simply gloss over it. At the very least, they are easier to vet and assure quality by virtue of being shorter.
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