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[Rule Amendment - osu!mania] Allowing (7+)Note Chords on Higher Difficulties
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I dont agree with it. Well whatever, just let everyone decide.
Topic Starter
Aishdoll- wrote:
I dont agree with it. Well whatever, just let everyone decide.
why
Topic Starter
Aishdoll- wrote:
I dont agree with it. Well whatever, just let everyone decide.
Onta_Sama wrote:
Who wants to put dump in 7K ? 🤔🤔🤔
before this gets out of hand, consider elaborating on your point if you disagree with it, i don't wish to have this topic filled with rhetorical questions and disagreements with no elaboration.
Evening wrote:
Onta_Sama wrote:
Who wants to put dump in 7K ? 🤔🤔🤔
before this gets out of hand, consider elaborating on your point if you disagree with it, i don't wish to have this topic filled with rhetorical questions and disagreements with no elaboration.
Sorry about that. Actually i'm little disagree to put dump in 7K since it would make the points are over emphasized, and also it kinda can decsrease the aesthethic of the chart it self . But that isn't a big problem since everyone have his own representation.
Onta_Sama wrote:
Evening wrote:
Onta_Sama wrote:
Who wants to put dump in 7K ? 🤔🤔🤔
before this gets out of hand, consider elaborating on your point if you disagree with it, i don't wish to have this topic filled with rhetorical questions and disagreements with no elaboration.
Sorry about that. Actually i'm little disagree to put dump in 7K since it would make the points are over emphasized, and also it kinda can decsrease the aesthethic of the chart it self . But that isn't a big problem since everyone have his own representation.
Sorry but I'm not entirely sure how adding 7+ chords to 7-9k maps would classify as a dumpy technique. That's roughly equivalent to saying that quad usage in 4k classifies as a dumpy technique since it fills all available columns and that...doesn't make sense in my opinion. Once you reach a certain difficulty level in higher keymodes I'm fairly certain that usage of larger chords can be perfectly justified in the music as a result of a higher level map's higher density. And if that usage is justified by the difficulty level of the map, the mapper's style, and the music itself (though that last bit is super subjective), than it's a legitimate technique in my book. The proposed rule covers that quite well in my opinion by limiting larger chord usage to high level difficulties only. I think it's important to consider the fact that osu!mania has a super diverse community and many 7k+ mappers (and players!) believe that 7+ chords (or LN patterns that cause 7+ columns to be covered at once) is essential for higher level play. We sorely lack higher level maps for higher keymodes, so I think we need to implement this in order to retain higher level 7k+ players and mappers. This is especially important since there's barely any content for higher keymodes these days in ranked.
Onta_Sama wrote:
Evening wrote:
Onta_Sama wrote:
Who wants to put dump in 7K ? 🤔🤔🤔
before this gets out of hand, consider elaborating on your point if you disagree with it, i don't wish to have this topic filled with rhetorical questions and disagreements with no elaboration.
Sorry about that. Actually i'm little disagree to put dump in 7K since it would make the points are over emphasized, and also it kinda can decsrease the aesthethic of the chart it self . But that isn't a big problem since everyone have his own representation.
Allowing 7k+ chord doesn't translate into allowing/making dumps in 7K, I'm kinda curious as to why and where did you get that idea from. Consider elaborating your point properly. Mind you that you can also make dumps without the limitation of this rule.
Also why would it decrease the aesthetics of a chart? and from what aspect? Instead, I believe this would give more opportunities to make charts with better aesthetics and unique patterning.
Great idea. Glad to see this rule in the future! I hope that old top player will be back ~ honestly, 7chord is really challenging but its fun! Even I can't play 7K properly but I love it >_<
So this rule change got a proper amount of feedback over time. I guess it would be slowly time to push it, additional feedback can be then still given here or in git.
But we need a proper wording for it first.
Since it seem to be cool with having it from Expert difficulties I would suggest moving this to a guideline in following wording:
There should not be more than 6 Notes pressed at any given moment in Insane or lower difficulties. Using more than 6 Notes must also follow a reasonable spread to the next lower difficulty. This guideline does not apply to ends of long notes, as they are released, not pressed.
An additional idea would be to just move the Rule to every difficulty from Easy to Insane. In Expert this rule would not be added anymore and so it would be possible to have more than 6 Notes in Expert difficulties.
But I fear this way could be misunderstand.
What do you think?
But we need a proper wording for it first.
Since it seem to be cool with having it from Expert difficulties I would suggest moving this to a guideline in following wording:
There should not be more than 6 Notes pressed at any given moment in Insane or lower difficulties. Using more than 6 Notes must also follow a reasonable spread to the next lower difficulty. This guideline does not apply to ends of long notes, as they are released, not pressed.
An additional idea would be to just move the Rule to every difficulty from Easy to Insane. In Expert this rule would not be added anymore and so it would be possible to have more than 6 Notes in Expert difficulties.
But I fear this way could be misunderstand.
What do you think?
Wording seems pretty solid to me imo
As for the alternative idea, I think it's decent but yeah it could definitely cause misunderstandings since the no 7 chord rule has been around for so long that people might assume that it's a mistake and that the guideline would apply to extra diffs too.
Edit: I'm dumb, I meant "since the no 7 chord rule has been around for so long that people might asume that it's a mistake and that the rule would apply to extra diffs too"
As for the alternative idea, I think it's decent but yeah it could definitely cause misunderstandings since the no 7 chord rule has been around for so long that people might assume that it's a mistake and that the guideline would apply to extra diffs too.
Edit: I'm dumb, I meant "since the no 7 chord rule has been around for so long that people might asume that it's a mistake and that the rule would apply to extra diffs too"
Topic Starter
I'm okay with just adding that as a rule, since that's the only one I read. idk about guidelines, they seem very bloated and overinformative, but that's a problem for another time
Maps with 7+ chords (say, 7 notes on different columns in a <=50-100ms period) should have a warning displayed on the map page, or even on the listing.
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2344 made a pull request for this Rule change.
After asking at the BN Server once more it seem to be better keeping this as a Rule. Making it a Guideline could let imply that 6+ Notes are allowed in Easy - Insane
After asking at the BN Server once more it seem to be better keeping this as a Rule. Making it a Guideline could let imply that 6+ Notes are allowed in Easy - Insane
some kind i'm agree with this rule for my future mapping however, there's has pros and cons as well. Guess i don't need to explain more about it because everyone know it....uh i think.
what i think can be done is to have the rule under easy to insane then have a guideline under expert on the usage of 7+ note chords. 'expert' in higher keymodes is pretty broad so i think there should still be a guideline that is against the use of 7+ note chords in the lower tier of expert diffs and mostly allow it only for the high level maps similar to what Evening said in the original post.Feerum wrote:
An additional idea would be to just move the Rule to every difficulty from Easy to Insane. In Expert this rule would not be added anymore and so it would be possible to have more than 6 Notes in Expert difficulties.
But I fear this way could be misunderstand.
despite the connotations this poses towards improving top-end osu!mania beatmapping, something about the idea of having a soft hardware requirement for progression in a gamemode feels fundamentally at odds with the whole free-to-win aspect of osu! and is probably a major factor as to why the rule is how it is in the first place
have any stats been pulled on what the average KRO is on standard and low-end hardware?
have any stats been pulled on what the average KRO is on standard and low-end hardware?
Topic Starter
KeppSado wrote:
Feerum wrote:
An additional idea would be to just move the Rule to every difficulty from Easy to Insane. In Expert this rule would not be added anymore and so it would be possible to have more than 6 Notes in Expert difficulties.
But I fear this way could be misunderstand.
what i think can be done is to have the rule under easy to insane then have a guideline under expert on the usage of 7+ note chords. 'expert' in higher keymodes is pretty broad so i think there should still be a guideline that is against the use of 7+ note chords in the lower tier of expert diffs and mostly allow it only for the high level maps similar to what Evening said in the original post.
@Feerum:
I'm seconding this idea of shifting it higher above the expert spectrum, I originally intended for 7*+, in which is a safe area to assume that a majority of players has upgraded to a keyboard that avoids this issue.
While I understand it should be "named", I doubt we will get a good consensus of players at 5.25* level to switch keyboard to increase in rank. Is Ultra (black icon) an agreed name? idk
I'm quite confident that maps below 7* will rarely use 7+ chords.
Your call Feerum, I'm thinking of making it only Ultra icon which is 7* if I'm not mistaken.
Most USB devices support up to 6KRO unless they have something fancy.Ephemeral wrote:
have any stats been pulled on what the average KRO is on standard and low-end hardware?
This benefits most top-tier players who already likely invested in devices to compete in other VSRGs as well. This proposal already applies only for Ultra difficulties, so I don't see an issue.
Evening wrote:
@Feerum:I'm seconding this idea of shifting it higher above the expert spectrum, I originally intended for 7*+, in which is a safe area to assume that a majority of players has upgraded to a keyboard that avoids this issue.
While I understand it should be "named", I doubt we will get a good consensus of players at 5.25* level to switch keyboard to increase in rank. Is Ultra (black icon) an agreed name? idk
I'm quite confident that maps below 7* will rarely use 7+ chords.
Your call Feerum, I'm thinking of making it only Ultra icon which is 7* if I'm not mistaken.
Hmm.. i don't have a problem with having it either from Expert or "Ultra". The only problem is that "Ultra" is not yet an official difficult naming, at least it is not stated anywhere in the wiki/any ranking criteria as far as i know.
I understand that Everything below 7* would rarely use this 7-Noted patterns, but they still could restricting mapper. If we have this as a Rule, there is no way around it even if a mapset would have 6.95*. They would have to stick to the rule and could not use more than 6-Noted pattern. So making it from Expert would avoid such stuff.
Also having it from Expert would also make it easier for us to implement it. Otherwise we would first need to define what an "Ultra" difficulty is.
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Okay but before we can move all this, peppy mentioned of making a poll with a sample beatmap to first see how many people would be able to play such a beatmap. And i also think that this would be a good idea, just to have it clear it this would affect player somehow in any negative way.
If we could proof that this is not the case, it would be easier to counter the "Free-to-win" aspect of the game. I am awaiting a reply on the github issue for this. If he agrees i will setup a poll with a beatmap (beatmap probably by someone else) asap.
Ephemeral wrote:
despite the connotations this poses towards improving top-end osu!mania beatmapping, something about the idea of having a soft hardware requirement for progression in a gamemode feels fundamentally at odds with the whole free-to-win aspect of osu! and is probably a major factor as to why the rule is how it is in the first place
have any stats been pulled on what the average KRO is on standard and low-end hardware?
Refer to what -mint- brought up
-mint- wrote:
i dont know if this has been said but i know of people that cant even play 4k maps because their keyboard can only register 3 at a time
by that logic we should not even allow quads in 4k maps to be rankable
???
that just doesnt make sense at all. the fact that theres a 6 notes max restriction makes zero sense, and as a mapper i would not be able to restrict myself on mapping in that way so i feel sympathetic to this cause for sure
Since keyboards can be as low as 2kro how is mania as a whole not disturbing the free-to-win aspect of osu? At the level this rule would be put in place, I'd expect the players to be able to press 7 keys at once. A ton of top players play either bms or o2jam where you will come across patterns which would break the current =<6 rule.
As for the free-to-win aspect of osu, while I don't doubt it's the goal for staff/developers, the playerbase doesn't encourage that too much. Getting good keyboards is very common for mania and standard, and standard also has the meta of buying tablets for play. The way I see it, a free-to-win aspect should be preserved for a majority of the playerbase to allow accessibility (one of osu's strengths imo). Beginners typically won't dip into the 'get better gear' meta, of course. However, for a part of the ranked section where very good players will be playing, I think it's more than reasonable to expect that someone can press 7 keys at a time
I don't believe it's necessary to restrict the 7key presses to Ultra difficulty maps. First, since star rating is mostly based around note density, any map with a 7 key press pattern is likely to have a fairly high star rating to begin with. The 7key presses will actually increase that star rating themselves.
I suppose cutting it off at 6 stars would be more reasonable, but even then I think it should really be a guideline rather than a hard rule. We should keep in mind that star rating is a VERY poor indicator of actual map difficulty at higher ratings, particularly bad above 5 stars or so.
I suppose cutting it off at 6 stars would be more reasonable, but even then I think it should really be a guideline rather than a hard rule. We should keep in mind that star rating is a VERY poor indicator of actual map difficulty at higher ratings, particularly bad above 5 stars or so.
merged