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[Guideline change - osu!catch] Higher snapped hdash trigger distance in Platters

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Total Posts
9
Secre
Nomination Assessment Team
366 posts
Joined January 2013
Topic Starter
Secre
Change current guideline:

Higher-snapped hyperdashes should not be followed by antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.1x the trigger distance and the movement after the hyperdash must be walkable.

To:

Higher-snapped hyperdashes should not be followed by antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing should not exceed a distance snap of 1.1x the trigger distance and the movement after the hyperdash must be walkable.

This makes these patterns rankable even if they pass the 1.1x trigger distance guideline, even just by a little bit while also keeping it a strong emphasis on making sure the trigger distance on these h-dashes don't get too high. This will alleviate nominators while looking for/being cautious for unrankables in platters by preventing them to do math on every higher snapped hdash, and instead just looking out for the really really large ones that should be breaking this rule.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance
Would rather just increase the distance allowed than make it a guideline. Just because something is a “guideline” doesn’t make it so you only “have to look for really large ones”. A guideline is still a rule, you’re just allowed to break it with good reason. Most of the times people break this rule it’s just mistakes or whatever anyways. This doesn’t help that since they aren’t breaking that guideline for a good enough reason.

I’m open to increasing the parameters to 1.3-1.4 (leaning towards .3) but I think lifting the rule entirely won’t do as much as people may think.
Last edited by Ascendance , edited 1 time in total.
Secre
Nomination Assessment Team
366 posts
Joined January 2013
Topic Starter
Secre
yea definitely that way is also fine too

1.4 is a bit much but 1.3 is perfectly fine, if you want you can go w/ that instead of my wording
Last edited by Secre , edited 1 time in total.
MBomb
MBomb
Personally I disagree with both of these. The usage of higher snapped HDashes in platters should be rarely followed by any sort of antiflow in the first place, since that goes against the premise of these difficulties being an "introduction to HDashes", however in cases where they are, the 1.1x limit is there because the momentum change from an exact HDash to a direction change is already strong enough to make these patterns relatively difficult for a platter, let alone something like 1.2x the trigger distance for a HDash, where the momentum changes would be even bigger.

However, given the standards we've been told recently for guidelines ("wanting less maths" being the most common one), the hard limit of 1.1x currently does require checking any HDash that feels slightly stronger that's followed by these sorts of movements, and so I wouldn't be opposed to changing the word must to should, on the basis that since it's still a guideline, it would almost never get broken anyway, and only in extreme cases should the word must being changed to should be relevant at all.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
In an attempt to reach a resolution for this proposal, I have discussed this proposal with Ascendance. Considering that the underlying issue is that the rule is that the rule is tedious to follow, rather than an issue with the limits themselves, we are more inclined to merge the first suggestion in the thread, which is to move the rule to guidelines and change the wording from "must" to "should". For the sake of clarity, the proposal is:

Proposal wrote:

Higher-snapped hyperdashes should not be followed by antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing should not exceed a distance snap of 1.1x the trigger distance and the movement after the hyperdash must be walkable.


Regarding the other proposal (changing the limit to x1.2), we considered it wouldn't solve the issue at hand. If x1.15 (random number) trigger distance HDashes are getting overlooked nowadays with the x1.1 rule, x1.25 (random number, again) trigger distance HDashes will be overlooked with a x1.2 rule and we'll be in the same situation. Furthermore, changing the threshold in this rule would potentially require revising the thresholds in other rules and guidelines, namely:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Strong hyperdashes should not be used. For basic hyperdashes, a limit of 1.5x above the trigger distance is recommended. For higher-snapped hyperdashes, a limit of 1.3x is recommended instead.

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Basic hyperdashes may be used in conjunction with antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.2x if followed by a walkable movement, or 1.1x the trigger distance if followed by a basic dash.

Discussion will be open until Monday 1st of July at 4:00 UTC. If there are no open discussions that warrant revision by this point, the proposal will be amended into the Ranking Criteria with immediate effect. Therefore, if you have questions, concerns, or ideas for further improvement, please continue to discuss them here.
Last edited by ZiRoX , edited 2 times in total.
MBomb
MBomb
Once again I would really like to point out the fact that "1.1x" and such things have been misunderstood by mappers, modders, and even BNs on multiple occasions, and would highly recommend changing the wording to "1.1 times", so that it can't be confused with the distance snap multiplier in the editor.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
Ascendance and I agree with that suggestion. This also has implications for other rules and guidelines, which will also be changed accordingly. The proposal is, then:

Rule wrote:

Basic hyperdashes may be used in conjunction with antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.2 times the trigger distance if followed by a walkable movement, or 1.1 times the trigger distance if followed by a basic dash.


Guidelines wrote:

Higher-snapped hyperdashes should not be followed by antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.1 times the trigger distance and the movement after the hyperdash must be walkable.


Guideline wrote:

Strong hyperdashes should not be used. For basic hyperdashes, a limit of 1.5 times the trigger distance is recommended. For higher-snapped hyperdashes, a limit of 1.3 times the trigger distance is recommended instead.


Since this is a minor change for clarity and it doesn't affect the spirit of the original proposal, which has already been discussed, these changes will be merged into the Ranking Criteria as soon as possible.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2345
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
merged
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