The way AR is setup is dumb. It's a one time learning curve, where once you learn it, you've got it forever, you can see it, you don't lose it. And it's not something you mess up once you have it, it's reading, it's easy once you train your eyes hard enough to learn it, unlike jumps, streams, or circle size, which can all be messed up by even the best players despite them having done it before. I understand that from a mapping perspective, a map might play best with a certain AR, so they should have the option to recommend an AR to the players, but the players would still have the final say. And I understand that a lot of people will react with,"well, I learned ar10 so everyone should have to." which is an understandable sentiment, but it's not one in the best interest of the game. And before I catch any kneejerk reactions like,"you just need to get good you stupid idiot head" yes I can read AR10. I thought it was dumb while I was learning it, and I think it's dumb now that I learned it. I'm honestly just interested in what people have to say about it.
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Unpopular Opinion: AR should be variable
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Well, there's already HR and EZ as a way to change the AR in accordance with the other difficulty settings so the players already have that option. Making the AR variable is kinda useless in my opinion since not many players would use it due to the way that the AR is tied to the BPM. It's really not a good feature to add since everyone should go through everything like everyone else. AR can be unlearned and learned and that makes this point of gameplay really fun.
Topic Starter
My point is, AR can't be unlearned, it's a one way curve, and once you have it, it's good, you don't mess up being able to see the notes coming once you have it, while with other skills you still mess them up after hours of practice. I think mania has an option where you can change how fast the notes come, and I think it'd be like that. And I think you underestimate how many players would use it, because on a lot of ar10 maps, people beg and beg for the creator to make an AR9 version just bc they can't read ar10. AR doesn't affect the ranking in any way, so I think it should be freely editable.
AR can be unlearned, that's why multiple 5 digits cant even read AR9 Below. They simply becoming accustommed to each AR rather than having multiple AR reading skills. That's why EZ players or even me can't play outside their comfort zones.
If AR were definable by the player, they would just use the AR that is most comfortable for them all the time. There would be no incentive to learn a variety of ARs. In mania, for example, most players start with a relatively slow scroll rate (though, usually not as low as how osu!standard maps set their ARs for easy difficulties. I think this is a reason most players already only play Hard or higher difficulties about just 1 week into the game), and then raise it slowly as they get better at reading, until they don't feel they get more benefit by raising it higher.
Currently mappers mostly set the AR to the value that is most comfortable for the median player in the target audience of the map (considering there is a correlation between skill of the player and preferred AR). Allowing players to set their preferred AR would please everyone in that regard.
In this sense, AR is not really difficulty setting (and trying to include it as a factor in performance calculations is problematic, current formula considers it if the effective AR was seen as extreme at the point the formula was made, such as AR9+DT or higher, though we already have plenty of players that consider AR9+DT as their most comfortable AR. Also low ARs are also considered a plus in difficulty, so the perceived difficulty of a certain AR is not even monotonic).
Currently mappers mostly set the AR to the value that is most comfortable for the median player in the target audience of the map (considering there is a correlation between skill of the player and preferred AR). Allowing players to set their preferred AR would please everyone in that regard.
In this sense, AR is not really difficulty setting (and trying to include it as a factor in performance calculations is problematic, current formula considers it if the effective AR was seen as extreme at the point the formula was made, such as AR9+DT or higher, though we already have plenty of players that consider AR9+DT as their most comfortable AR. Also low ARs are also considered a plus in difficulty, so the perceived difficulty of a certain AR is not even monotonic).
no, from : https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/685620Full Tablet wrote:
Currently mappers mostly set the AR to the value that is most comfortable for the median player in the target audience of the map (considering there is a correlation between skill of the player and preferred AR). Allowing players to set their preferred AR would please everyone in that regard.
Mappers set the ar value they think fits the map the most, NOT for comfortable. If I want to map a 6* build around ar8, and everyone can change this value because they don't like it, what's the point of mapping it like that in the first place. This would break many maps.abraker wrote:
Consider that it could have just simply made to be unranked, leaving the default settings ranked. Comparing plays wouldn't be the point in this and the perfect setup would just be the default. Self improvement is the point to allow AR/CS/OD/Rate changes, and while it is not unthinkable, I do believe that it was not the intention back then.
I believe back then the focus was to allow mappers to set the experience for the players. Like levels/stages in an old videogame with video, skins, and storyboard providing the experience and AR/CS/OD controlling how the map should look like. The point was not to have the optimal settings for those, but set to what the mapper wanted the player to experience. With more focus on the player ranking over the years, it has shifted towards a game for competing and skill improvement instead of game where maps are played for the content.
Anyway, osu! is slowly progressing to allow more flexibility, so just wait a bit longer.
Also, due to the fact that such thing should be unranked, this is more likely to be a thing only in Osu!Lazer and already exist in McOsu.
I'm moving this to G&R, there is already a request for adding variable AR settings and discussion in the "Completed Requests" subforum seems kind of odd.
I'd hardly say this is an "unpopular opinion" considering the request I mentioned previously has quite a few stars (https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/52873) and many people have requested the same thing as well.
I'd hardly say this is an "unpopular opinion" considering the request I mentioned previously has quite a few stars (https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/52873) and many people have requested the same thing as well.
xenal wrote:
Mappers set the ar value they think fits the map the most, NOT for comfortable. If I want to map a 6* build around ar8, and everyone can change this value because they don't like it, what's the point of mapping it like that in the first place. This would break many maps.
Also, due to the fact that such thing should be unranked, this is more likely to be a thing only in Osu!Lazer and already exist in McOsu.
It would be very hard for someone to rank an AR8 6* map. Among modern maps in that star range, AR8.7 is the lowest. The only ranked ones that are near to 6*, and are AR8, are old maps from before AR was an independent map setting (in those times, AR was the same as OD, so raising AR also raised the OD).
How do you determine what is the AR value that fits the map the most?
You could come up with several criteria, for example, you could decide that AR is proportional to how "energetic" you feel the music is (and use the same AR for all difficulties), but in the end, what determines if your map is appreciated by the players, and ends up being driving force that shapes what the ranking criteria is, is what players as a whole want. In practice, the AR mappers set to their maps tends to end up being what is easier for players to read (among the target audience of the map), and the ranking criteria sets limits for AR so maps aren't far from those values.
There are plays that are appreciated for having unusual AR (for example, AR10+DT plays, or EZ plays). People would still be able to do those scores if they want (and even have more options for doing them if they give players the option to choose any AR), the issue is how would those plays be rewarded in the pp system. A way is rewarding the play based on the AR chosen (which might cause an increase in the amount of scores recorded per player/map in the servers, for different ARs, to avoid overwriting high pp play with lower pp plays), or another way is ignoring AR in the calculation altogether.
What about the HDDTHR plays than
Topic Starter
My Angel Jeremy wrote:
What about the HDDTHR plays than
AR doesn't affect pp calculation anyway, so it shouldn't affect anything with hr (or ez) plays
Ar does affect pp calculation. Anything above 10.33 increase the speed value of the play. That was in the speed buff changes.
https://github.com/ppy/osu-performance/blob/master/src/performance/osu/OsuScore.cpp#L144
https://github.com/ppy/osu-performance/blob/master/src/performance/osu/OsuScore.cpp#L144
I understand that AR isnt part of the pp calculation, but it still makes significant difference and is able to make any map easier or harder on its own (try playing AR4 for example). With that being said how do you justify same pp gain for what would basically be a different map (different AR)? Thats simply not realistic. If you want different AR on a map just use the editor i suppose.
AR will never be variable because it nullifies all the reading plays of the past. Adjustable AR makes sense, but it's too late to implement it.
Jolene wrote:
AR will never be variable because it nullifies all the reading plays of the past. Adjustable AR makes sense, but it's too late to implement it.
You can make it unranked like relax. Or it could be an option in scorev2, if/when it receives leaderboards.
E m i
wdym you still need to have some pattern recognition ability, it isn't whether you can or can't read that arCainKing wrote:
it's a one way curve, and once you have it, it's good, you don't mess up being able to see the notes coming once you have it, while with other skills you still mess them up after hours of practice.
and the point is both at once can be hard even if you can do them individually
Jolene wrote:
AR will never be variable because it nullifies all the reading plays of the past. Adjustable AR makes sense, but it's too late to implement it.
Those reading plays would still exist. If players were able to choose their own AR, they would have more options to upload plays that are hard to read due to the AR to the leaderboards.
I think the leaderboards by default should show all scores regardless of AR, and show in a column the AR the play was played with so people can locate those scores.
wats the point of having unranked variable ar when u can already change the ar in the editor tho