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[Guideline Change - osu!catch] Edge Dash Usage | Overdose

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MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb
Hello there!

Edge dashes are generally quite difficult jumps to hit, and so therefore their usage in overdoses is quite minimal, however I feel a certain guideline does restrict the usage of them a little too much, considering it's a case that doesn't stand out as a problem, at least comparatively to the other cases the guideline is against.

The guideline in question currently says the following:

Edge dashes may be used with caution for a maximum of three consecutive objects, and should not be used in conjunction with hyperdashes.
The problem I have with this guideline is that whilst following hyperdashes with edge dashes is a problem, the usage of an edge dash followed by a hyperdash is by no means a problematic pattern, and has nearly no difference in difficulty to an edge dash followed by a dash, and is definitely easier than an edge dash followed by another edge dash. I feel like the wording should only warn against the usage of a hyperdash followed by an edge dash, something like this could work fine:

Edge dashes may be used with caution for a maximum of three consecutive objects, and should not be used after hyperdashes.
Whilst this is just a guideline currently, so it's not actually an unrankable case, I feel as though guidelines should be a case of "This should only be used in exceptional circumstances", which right now the wording of this restricts a rather simplistic movement for the level of difficulty.
Secre
Nomination Assessment Team
366 posts
Joined January 2013
Secre
honestly whatever ends up w/ this guideline is fine, so if you wanna do this +1
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,922 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
Edge dash into a hyper means that if you don't have near-perfect timing to hit the edge dash, you will not only miss that object, but whatever comes after it also (since hyperdashes are generated when you can't reach the next note by normal dashing).

Both scenarios of edge->hyper and hyper->edge guarantee at least two misses if not hit perfectly, and potentially many more if the end point of the pair is a denser section like a stream or a buzz slider or whatever.

The guideline is not restricting people's usage of edge dash + hyper combinations.

Mappers not knowing how to execute this pattern properly (because it is almost never used by anyone, ever), is.
Last edited by JBHyperion , edited 1 time in total.
Sorceress
332 posts
Joined September 2012
Sorceress
Looks good, set those edge dashes free

EDIT: Didn't see JBH's post

It's definitely a punishing pattern if you miss but how punishing a pattern is and how difficult it is are two different things. Plenty of existing patterns in maps will result in multiple misses if you mess any of it up.

If players can handle consecutive edge dashes (as this guideline permits), then they are more than capable of handling an edge dash into a hyperdash.
Last edited by Sorceress , edited 1 time in total.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
Considering the discussion that has taken place in this thread, we're considering the following change to the guideline:

Proposal wrote:

Edge dashes may be used with caution for a maximum of three consecutive objects, and should not be used after hyperdashes.


Discussion will be open until Monday 1st of July at 4:00 UTC. If there are no open discussions that warrant revision by this point, the proposal will be amended into the Ranking Criteria with immediate effect. Therefore, if you have questions, concerns, or ideas for further improvement, please continue to discuss them here.
Last edited by ZiRoX , edited 1 time in total.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2345
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
It has been brought to my attention that the proposal conflicts with another RC rule, namely this one:

General Rule wrote:

Edge dashes must not be used in direct conjunction with hyperjumps. This is because such patterns require especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch them.


There are two ways to tackle this conflict. It is important to note that Cup to Rain difficulties won't be affected by any of these options, as edge dashes are explicitely prohibited in Cup to Platter diffs, as is their usage combined with HDashes in Rain difficulties.

Option 1:
Changing both the general rule (so that it covers the Ranking Criteria) and the rule modified by this proposal.

General Rule wrote:

Edge dashes must not be used after hyperjumps. This is because such a pattern requires especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch it.


Overdose Guideline wrote:

Edge dashes may be used with caution for a maximum of three consecutive objects


Option 2:
Removing the general rule (Cup to Platter explicitly forbid edge dashes, and the rule is redundant with the Rain one) and keeping the recent change in the Overdose guideline. While this moves the HDash to edgedash restriction to a guideline instead of a rule, it can (and probably will) be pointed during modding.
MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb
I feel option 2 is nicer due to the fact that the splitting of these two rules feels quite unnecessary when they basically clearly can only apply to one difficulty anyway.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
conversation at the end of this thread is covered in https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/938018 so yeah
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