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How should halftime be changed?

It's fine as it is.
41.26% 85
It's unfair, but shouldn't be changed.
6.31% 13
Hide halftime scores by default.
8.25% 17
Unrank halftime mod.
25.24% 52
Lower the halftime multiplier.
16.50% 34
Other.
2.43% 5
Total votes: 206
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posted

jesus1412 wrote:

the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
posted
How about to make HT scores weigh less than top40 non-HT? example: #40 300 combo > #41 1000 combo HalfTime > #42 280 combo. If there's less than 40 non-HT passes then just show HT right after them. So people who put a lot of effort to perform a map won't get shadowed by HT players (but they still will be rewarded for good play too). I don't think though amount of pp giving needs to be reduced since you can simply get more pp from random hard/insane.
posted

enik wrote:

How about to make HT scores weigh less than top40 non-HT?
Due to the nature of standard's scoring system this is impossible to implement.
Had standard used mania's scoring system, it would have been. Would be nice if it did; that scoring system is miles better.
posted

Aqo wrote:

Had standard used mania's scoring system, it would have been. Would be nice if it did; that scoring system is miles better.
Hard capping the score to 1m regardless of difficulty increasing mods applied is good? What.
posted

JappyBabes wrote:

Hard capping the score to 1m regardless of difficulty increasing mods applied is good? What.
This is the only part of it that I don't like and think it's completely stupid especially with mods taken into account.
However the way comboing and accuracy is handled in mania is superior to standard in every possible way.
posted

Aqo wrote:

comboing
HA.

aka it doesn't do shit.
posted
So you want it like mania scoring, all accuracy no combo?
posted
Accuracy only, no combo = Unranked mod.

That's how Relax and AutoPilot do anyway, the difference is that there's no "punish score" unlike osu!mania.
posted

jesus1412 wrote:

Michi wrote:

Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.
posted

bwross wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.
So remove the halftime scores from pp calculations for those without and calculate them as a normal top40, as suggested in the OP. Difference is that you want to include yet another calculation for players with halftime. I would have to say this would overly complicate things and allow people to easily get top ranks on hards using "separate" rankings resulting in pp for invisible top ranks.
posted
It's not really that complicated... computers are built to do this sort of thing, and this is a really an easy thing for them.

And it won't really allow you to get top ranks on hards that are worth anything by using HT... because those simply won't be worth anything. There's a difference between taking an extreme map with 7.5 OPS and HT it to 5.6 (which is still a very respectable insane and should count for something) and taking a 3.5 OPS hard and HT it to 2.6 (which is well back in the normal range). Add in the penalties to pp for using HT and the lack of a decent rank, and you've just gained diddly squat for spending 33% more time than if you just played the normal. Plus, the curve can always be made non-linear so that anything HTed in even the moderate insane range barely ranks as an easy. It's just a matter of running the numbers to find something appropriate. There's nothing quite like giving a munchkin hope and then watching them waste hours trying to twink something that's been so curved down that it will never give them anything... it's one of the small joys of game development.

Plus, it's unlikely that a plan that removes scores from consideration will get any ground... that's not far from just unranking the mod, which isn't going to happen. And so we should start by looking for solutions where everything can count, because, ideally, every valid play should be considered for what it is worth when it comes to evaluating pp. And because of that, HT plays should be evaluated at their actual difficulty and against other scores of the same difficulty, and they should not interfere with people that are essentially playing a different song.
posted

bwross wrote:

It's not really that complicated... computers are built to do this sort of thing, and this is a really an easy thing for them.

And it won't really allow you to get top ranks on hards that are worth anything by using HT... because those simply won't be worth anything. There's a difference between taking an extreme map with 7.5 OPS and HT it to 5.6 (which is still a very respectable insane and should count for something) and taking a 3.5 OPS hard and HT it to 2.6 (which is well back in the normal range). Add in the penalties to pp for using HT and the lack of a decent rank, and you've just gained diddly squat for spending 33% more time than if you just played the normal. Plus, the curve can always be made non-linear so that anything HTed in even the moderate insane range barely ranks as an easy. It's just a matter of running the numbers to find something appropriate. There's nothing quite like giving a munchkin hope and then watching them waste hours trying to twink something that's been so curved down that it will never give them anything... it's one of the small joys of game development.

Plus, it's unlikely that a plan that removes scores from consideration will get any ground... that's not far from just unranking the mod, which isn't going to happen. And so we should start by looking for solutions where everything can count, because, ideally, every valid play should be considered for what it is worth when it comes to evaluating pp. And because of that, HT plays should be evaluated at their actual difficulty and against other scores of the same difficulty, and they should not interfere with people that are essentially playing a different song.
Some very valid points indeed, even after thinking about how making it rankable in it's own little group of scores I really can't see a way to make rewards fair. A pass on freedom dive 4d is obviously harder than say an 800 combo halftime, so where do we draw the line? Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.

An easy way to separate it would be to make players who enable halftime mod see halftime plays in the top ranks of a map. This way player who don't want to see halftime don't have to and those interested can see it.
posted

jesus1412 wrote:

Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted now
posted

GoldenWolf wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted now
Use the same pp formula to apply the accuracy? The pp doesn't have to be added on, just potential pp used in the calculation for acc.
posted
The problem is that PP takes only the top score into account and that it's possible to get a higher score with HalfTime than without it due to comboing, despite the quality of play actually being much lower.

If you really want to solve this, the only logical way to do it is to make HalfTime not produce a score; i.e. change it into an unranked mod the same fashion autopilot and relax are.
posted

Aqo wrote:

The problem is that PP takes only the top score into account and that it's possible to get a higher score with HalfTime than without it due to comboing, despite the quality of play actually being much lower.

If you really want to solve this, the only logical way to do it is to make HalfTime not produce a score; i.e. change it into an unranked mod the same fashion autopilot and relax are.
If it was my choice I'd say the same, but we need to please everyone. If they think it's fine for other people to have to compete with their scores then they should have to keep them until they can beat them too. I can't see a problem with this, it's only fair.
posted

jesus1412 wrote:

we need to please everyone
That's also what I think.

But is there anybody in this thread who voted for keeping HalfTime as it is and actually has any top scores with HalfTime?
Because all I see are people who supposedly do not support unranking HalfTime but they're not players who have any HalfTime ranks themselves so everything they're saying is based on assumptions and not on an actual connection to this topic.

Is there anybody in this entire game who meets the following criteria?

1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime

If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.

afaik, even people who play with HalfTime often prefer not to finish maps with it so that their HT score won't submit and shadow over their normaltime score. If there is anybody here that is different please say something. However hearing opinions from people who are not interested in contesting on maps where the whole normaltime vs halftime issue exists (i.e. any map where getting an FC is far from trivial) does not really progress this topic anywhere.
posted

Aqo wrote:

1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime

If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
is taiko taken into account
posted

_Gezo_ wrote:

is taiko taken into account
This discussion is solely about standard, since the whole issue is due to standard's combo/fc score system and the way HT scores break it. I'm aware the case is different in taiko, and don't think HT should change on it. Consider this topic purely for standard.
posted
In that case my vote doesn't change, I think this is fine as it is, for what it gives (Almost a third of the score given normally at normal speed, and only a tenth more for DT, though for some people DT should get higher in the multiplier, a fifth for some.) because real hard maps in nomod can get hell easier with HT. (See for example FD, if you clearly understand which map I'm talking about)
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