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Sakakibara Yui - Aqua Voice (Short Ver.)

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those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

they shouldnt follow any drumms on blue ticks
It's a rhythm game; mapping is based on following rhythms in the music. The real question is, why are you choosing to let it stop at 00:21:455 - which follows the other sliders' patterns which actually have something in the music, instead of stopping it at 00:21:498 - 1/8 or 00:21:520 - 1/16 before the next object?

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

always using this kind of stacks, prefer to hold cursor instead of moving it to next note
Why do you think I didn't mention that 00:41:886 (4,1) - had a problem? It's the way that these objects are approached. The way you mapped 01:04:817 (1,2,3) - causes 01:05:851 (1) - to stall if stacked with 01:05:507 (3) - .

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

01:39:817 (1,2) - Should have an increase in spacing here. nope, spacing is fine here
You didn't even space here. All you did was choose an arbitrary position for 01:39:817 (1) - based on 01:39:645 (3) - and you just horizontally flipped it. Roughly 1.40x spacing would make 01:39:645 (3,1,2) - much more even.
Mythol
1,420 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
Mythol
everything fixed my diff.. and added the red lines ==/
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]
everything is following music, if you think this one is completely wrong, that means you have low knowledge about pattern variations that can be used in osu
The real question is, why are you choosing to let it stop at 00:21:455 - which follows the other sliders' patterns which actually have something in the music, instead of stopping it at 00:21:498 - 1/8 or 00:21:520 - 1/16 before the next object?
because this kind of patterns always stop like that
Why do you think I didn't mention that 00:41:886 (4,1) - had a problem? It's the way that these objects are approached. The way you mapped 01:04:817 (1,2,3) - causes 01:05:851 (1) - to stall if stacked with 01:05:507 (3) - .
as i said its fine to me and i want to play this notes at current position
You didn't even space here. All you did was choose an arbitrary position for 01:39:817 (1) - based on 01:39:645 (3) - and you just horizontally flipped it. Roughly 1.40x spacing would make 01:39:645 (3,1,2) - much more even.
if i placing 3 notes it doesnt mean that spacing should be equal........
spacing should be readable, and this one is readable.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Just a quickie mod since it's being discussed:

[General]
Tick rate 2 fits this song best.

[Easy]
00:10:396 (1) - The end is snapped wrong.
00:14:300 (1) - Too soon after a spinner for an easy. Give around 3-4 beats. You're also starting on an odd beat that will be difficult for a player of Easy skill to play.
01:02:748 (2) - new combo
01:24:817 (2) - ^

[Normal]
00:14:300 (1) - This is borderline too soon after a spinner for a Normal. I recommend you try something else, but if you insist, at least make the 1 slider closer to the center to aid in recovery.

[alacat]
00:20:334 (4,5) - A jump here would fit best considering 00:19:645 (2,3) -
00:40:334 (6,7) - Strange spot for a jump
00:50:851 (4,1) - Having these stacked breaks your flow and goes against the continuing nature of the musical section change here.
01:09:645 (1,2,3,4) - Accelerated spacing would work great here :3
01:14:472 (5,6) - The overlap with the end of the 6 slider looks really poor. I suggest you try a different pattern for a better visual effect.

[cYro]
00:10:596 (1) - End this with a soft hitsound set so you don't get that "pop"
00:34:386 (2) - Delete
00:38:524 (7) - ^
00:44:127 (3) - Repeat arrow is partially obscured by a hitburst - it'd be easy to adjust
00:46:800 (8) - Delete
00:48:179 (2) - ^
00:53:006 (5) - ^
00:54:817 (4,1,2) - Considering the large amount of stacked triple 1/4 rhythms, this was an odd encounter to come across
00:58:955 (7,1,2) - ^
01:01:196 (6) - Fits better like this

01:05:507 (3,1) - Ouch. That breaks the flow bad. D:
01:07:566 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - This part is fairly difficult in comparison with the rest of the map. It'd play better if it was similar in scope to what you did at 01:26:886 (2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2) -
01:15:075 (2) - Well, I think you get the idea. The majority of your 1/4 usage is out of sync with the percussion and plays awkwardly. They'd be better-placed when the drum does the small riffs like at 01:13:696 -
01:23:438 (1,2,3,4) - After such a huge rush of speed with these largely-spaced 1/4 sliders, running into the relatively super-slow slider at 01:24:127 (1) - is a huge letdown
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]
Its not even mod, its something like do what Those said or you wont get ur bubble.
kk all changed, in fact i still not agree with any of this changes, just saying
http://puu.sh/1qwgv
Oh no not Garven plz...........
without even checking mod i already know he will remove half of my triplets \:D/
Last edited by cRyo[iceeicee] , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

everything is following music, if you think this one is completely wrong, that means you have low knowledge about pattern variations that can be used in osu
Please, don't insult people who are trying to help. This only makes you look bad.

I didn't check the map myself, but for what it's worth, every rejections of a suggestion should have a valid reason which is usually backed up by the music. Sometimes intentions can be made to add to the music instead, but reasons "i want it like this" or similar aren't actual reasons. I am not here to say that either of you are wrong, I am here to suggest that you give reasons which are more accepted to other people. This will make the person on the other end much more comfortable when it comes to approving of things.
h3k1ru
osu! Alumni
1,910 posts
Joined March 2010
h3k1ru
looks like someone in bad mood today.. take it easy guys ><''
alacat
osu! Alumni
3,872 posts
Joined May 2011
alacat

Garven wrote:

[alacat]
00:20:334 (4,5) - A jump here would fit best considering 00:19:645 (2,3) - ok , make more spacing
00:40:334 (6,7) - Strange spot for a jump keep now this jump o.o
00:50:851 (4,1) - Having these stacked breaks your flow and goes against the continuing nature of the musical section change here. ok
01:09:645 (1,2,3,4) - Accelerated spacing would work great here :3 ok
01:14:472 (5,6) - The overlap with the end of the 6 slider looks really poor. I suggest you try a different pattern for a better visual effect. hmm , I follow lyrics here >_<
Thanks Garven　(「・ω・)「

http://puu.sh/1qwFx
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]

lolcubes wrote:

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

everything is following music, if you think this one is completely wrong, that means you have low knowledge about pattern variations that can be used in osu
Please, don't insult people who are trying to help. This only makes you look bad.

I didn't check the map myself, but for what it's worth, every rejections of a suggestion should have a valid reason which is usually backed up by the music. Sometimes intentions can be made to add to the music instead, but reasons "i want it like this" or similar aren't actual reasons. I am not here to say that either of you are wrong, I am here to suggest that you give reasons which are more accepted to other people. This will make the person on the other end much more comfortable when it comes to approving of things.
Im not trying to insult anyone....
This is quite simple, i saw few thote's maps, he is not using this kind of paterns, which means he #1- dont like it #2 dont understand it, thats why he is absolutely against it, i know mappers who using this kind of paterns and im sure they will say that its fine and can be used here
If we talking about easy gameplay i can agree that those suggestion plays easier.
But not every mapper wants to make easy map with 1.0 spacing and easy pattern, sometimes we make some tricky parts, overmaping, confusing spacing etc. because some player prefer something more then 1pc fc.
also i explained my reasons why i didnt want to change it...
Last edited by cRyo[iceeicee] , edited 1 time in total.
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]
Garven

Garven wrote:

[cYro]
00:10:596 (1) - End this with a soft hitsound set so you don't get that "pop"
00:34:386 (2) - Delete
00:38:524 (7) - ^
00:44:127 (3) - Repeat arrow is partially obscured by a hitburst - it'd be easy to adjust
00:46:800 (8) - Delete
00:48:179 (2) - ^
00:53:006 (5) - ^
00:54:817 (4,1,2) - Considering the large amount of stacked triple 1/4 rhythms, this was an odd encounter to come across
00:58:955 (7,1,2) - ^
01:01:196 (6) - Fits better like this no.....this patern is too evil !!! even for Mr slidertick-2 :>
01:05:507 (3,1) - Ouch. That breaks the flow bad. D:
01:07:566 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - This part is fairly difficult in comparison with the rest of the map. It'd play better if it was similar in scope to what you did at 01:26:886 (2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2) -
01:15:075 (2) - Well, I think you get the idea. The majority of your 1/4 usage is out of sync with the percussion and plays awkwardly. They'd be better-placed when the drum does the small riffs like at 01:13:696 -
01:23:438 (1,2,3,4) - After such a huge rush of speed with these largely-spaced 1/4 sliders, running into the relatively super-slow slider at 01:24:127 (1) - is a huge letdown
Changed everything
Thank you those and Garven for this Collab ==/
http://puu.sh/1qxcU
Mythol
1,420 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
Mythol
cRyo diff is not fun anymore
Hope you guys are happy ==/
and all fixed in my diffs (no tick rate 2)
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Just started the recheck - need to go over some stuff for the Insane since the applications were done more literally instead of capturing the spirit. It's a little lop-sided right now. I'll edit the rest in when I get some time.

[Easy]
00:13:783 (1) - Still too soon after a spinner. You need much more time than that. It might be best to just go without the spinner.
01:15:851 (3) - New combo

Normal and Hard look good.
Mythol
1,420 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
Mythol
Both points fixed on easy.
plz let cRyo keep some of her old patterns.. this new diff is now just like any other eroge map with nothing special
I asked cRyo cause she will make something unique and you guys are ruining this ==////////
if I wanted just a "rankable" diff I would have mapped it myself >.>
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Your general attitude isn't exactly helpful towards me wanting to help the set out, that's for sure. You could say it's "ruining" my want to assist you.

As I have had to explain to cRyo many times before: most things here are suggestions in which I feel will make the map better and more true to the music. It seems a lot of the suggestions were taken without much thought to the rest of the map and the general quality is now much lower. I'm willing to work with her to get it up and running again, but please don't make it out to be us just forcing everything down your throats. It's the wrong attitude to take in the modding process and will only result in both sides being worse for the wear.

And honestly, the original map was more like most other eroge maps with the 1/4 spam everywhere. "Just rankable" is a foolish concept to pull out especially considering the points that have been raised for the map so far. If we were going for "just rankable" none of this would be here, and the ranked map pool would be downright abysmal.
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]

Garven wrote:

most things here are suggestions in which I feel will make the map better and more true to the music
I applied all of them and now you saying that
general quality is now much lower
What does that supposed to mean \:D/ ?
The problem is not what you called *bad mappers attitude*, the problem is in something that you called *suggestion*
*Suggestions* is something that mapper can deny isnt it, unless there is some unrankable issue.
But your mods (especially those) isnt suggestion its more like ultimatum, fix or no bubble/rank
You simply trying to interfere your own patterns in our maps

p/1841574
absolutely same paterns, and absolutely same mod from those

same goes to Garven who always trying to remove this *overmap triplets*
If both of you dont like this patterns well just dont use it in ur own maps but dont forib us to use them

I saw hundreds maps in editor and i can say that this map doesnt have anything new, all this kind of patterns and overmaped triplets exist in hundreds ranked maps.
Im sure that Garven saw 10 times more maps then me, and i still surprised why he always against this triplets, if 2 years ago it was somekind of not ordinary patern, so today overmaping triplets its just something that exist in every 2nd map....

Also i want to mention that this drama treads always happenes with those mods, why no one complain about Niva, NatsumeRin, Andrea, Suzully because this moders give us choice, and those dont, Garven sometimes also doing the same but at least its possible to find compromise with him because he is not acting like robot.

And i was quite dissapointed to read such silly jokes from BAT member

those wrote:

It's a rhythm game; mapping is based on following rhythms in the music. The real question is, why are you choosing to let it stop at 00:21:455 - which follows the other sliders' patterns which actually have something in the music, instead of stopping it at 00:21:498 - 1/8 or 00:21:520 - 1/16 before the next object?
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
The typical view you have of us is that if something is ranked in the server, it is forever fine to use in every scenario. When you list BAT members like that, you're simply comparing our leniency; rest be assured that we are all trying to do our best in maintaining quality control. I haven't had the capacity to check your changes yet, but if you need a more in-depth explanation as to why stuff should be changed I can try to provide one.

However, here's some food for thought: a song that is fun mapped one way doesn't mean it won't be fun if it's mapped another way. We simply ask you keep up with ranking standards when you wish to have a map ranked on the server, and it is our responsibility to point out things that should be improved before ranking. If you're able to find a find way to map a song, surely you're able to find another - one which is more acceptable to our standards.
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]
if something is ranked in the server, it is forever fine to use in every scenario.
Mostly yes, we dling maps checking them in editor and learning something new from other mappers
If map have not ordinary pattern/placement etc. we looking at map rating if its high that means that this kind of patterns can be used in our own maps and high rating says that players like it
we are all trying to do our best in maintaining quality control.
All i can say that ur mods is quite offencive, and i simply dont understand ur point of view
I explained my reason why i dont want to change anything and i dont understand why you keep pushing me to make all this changes, because as i said they doesnt make any sence for me......
but if you need a more in-depth explanation as to why stuff should be changed I can try to provide one.
ok
However, here's some food for thought: a song that is fun mapped one way doesn't mean it won't be fun if it's mapped another way.
Yes, but if its mapped fun in one way why should i search another fun way to map it ?
We simply ask you keep up with ranking standards when you wish to have a map ranked on the server, and it is our responsibility to point out things that should be improved before ranking.
I agree that if BAT thinks that map quality is not good for him and mapper dont want to make any changes, this BAT shouldnt rank it, but still he should return bubble if map dont have any unrankable issue, we will just wait another BAT thats all
If you're able to find a find way to map a song, surely you're able to find another - one which is more acceptable to our standards.
There is no such things as *our standarts* every mapper have his/her own standarts if something is not acceptable to you it doesnt mean that any other BAT member will have same problems.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

Garven wrote:

most things here are suggestions in which I feel will make the map better and more true to the music
I applied all of them and now you saying that
general quality is now much lower
What does that supposed to mean \:D/ ?
It means that you didn't read my post. You just applied everything in the literal sense, and then ignored the line that said that there were other spots as well with similar issue, but you ignored it since I didn't specify where. I know you're proficient enough in English to be able to understand that. From what I'm seeing, it's more that you're just folding your arms and doing things to the letter in obstinance rather than working with the suggestions to see if they work for your map or not. Modding is a two-way communication. The way you're acting, this isn't happening and now you can see the result.

>>The problem is not what you called *bad mappers attitude*, the problem is in something that you called *suggestion*
*Suggestions* is something that mapper can deny isnt it, unless there is some unrankable issue.
But your mods (especially those) isnt suggestion its more like ultimatum, fix or no bubble/rank

Where have I said that I am forcing mods for this particular issue? Once again, I wonder if you even actually read the posts...

>>You simply trying to interfere your own patterns in our maps

That's what modding is, cRyo. You're just putting a negative and slanted spin on it. Try to actually see why we make the suggestions instead of automatically going into this sort of back-lash. It's just making everything harder than it needs to be.

>>same goes to Garven who always trying to remove this *overmap triplets*
If both of you dont like this patterns well just dont use it in ur own maps but dont forib us to use them

If you can't see the gaping flaw in this statement, then there's no use in me pointing it out.

>>Im sure that Garven saw 10 times more maps then me, and i still surprised why he always against this triplets, if 2 years ago it was somekind of not ordinary patern, so today overmaping triplets its just something that exist in every 2nd map....

I'm sorry for being consistent in my views? I can accept the use of triple rhythms - I just found that your use of them was rather poorly placed and proposed a better placement guide to follow in which you ignored either by choice or by overlooking it.

Try to take a step back and see just what it is you're trying to say here. Right now it's mostly mudslinging with little aim or goal. I want to help you make the map better and get the set ranked. From what I've seen of this thread, I'm not really seeing anything positive coming from your statements.
mochi
779 posts
Joined June 2010
mochi
To BATs and MATs,

What you think would make the map better isn't necessarily true for everyone else.

In the end it's just your opinion... don't force your opinion on others.
Mythol
1,420 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
Mythol
BAT opinion > all
those "i don't like this stack, i want to move cursor somewhere else"
cRyo " i like this stack, i want to keep cursor here"
guess who wins :/

also I lol'd pretty hard when I saw this

I guess BAT is truly boss now
follow orders or nuke
xsrsbsns
1,936 posts
Joined July 2010
xsrsbsns

mochi wrote:

To BATs and MATs,

What you think would make the map better isn't necessarily true for everyone else.

In the end it's just your opinion... don't force your opinion on others.
^ this.

How you interpret music is not the only way of doing it, and that's only the first step to mapping.

How you TRANSFORM your music into YOUR beatmaps.. Now that has countless possibilities.

Modding is one thing.
Popping someone else's map and refusing to rebubble unless your (imperfect) suggestions are followed is another.
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]
Where have I said that I am forcing mods for this particular issue? Once again, I wonder if you even actually read the posts...
Currently here nope, i said overal, because sometimes you became very strict in such places where you shouldnt, like Tick rate - 2/ OD8/9 or B(☞ nuked (2 hours chat about tick rate -omg /==\)
That's what modding is, cRyo. You're just putting a negative and slanted spin on it. Try to actually see why we make the suggestions instead of automatically going into this sort of back-lash. It's just making everything harder than it needs to be.
I saw ur maps, no triplets (that dont exist in music), always OD8/9
And all ur mods about this, remove triplet, increase od (and tickrate2 ofc), you simply trying to make this map to look like urs, and yes im strongly against this kind of mods
I'm sorry for being consistent in my views?
i forgive you :333333333 wwwww
I can accept the use of triple rhythms - I just found that your use of them was rather poorly placed and proposed a better placement guide to follow in which you ignored either by choice or by overlooking it.
All this triplets make sence for me, they not random, i know why do i put it.
Try to take a step back and see just what it is you're trying to say here.
Well ok lets start from beginig

Those mod
00:21:196 (6) - Shorten to red or extend to white; this slider doesn't follow the same rhythm pattern as 00:19:300 (1) - where you actually hear drum in the background.
Other words i cannot use this kind of patern because there is NO SOUND on blue tick
And 1 more time, this kind of patern dont depend on beat on blue tick, the reason of this patern is different, and those simply dont understand it
Lets take this map
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/182268
00:14:567 (1) -
00:17:459 (1) -
00:21:434 (3) - this one even have beat in the middle of slider
00:26:133 (1) -
and even more and more, and all of this sliders dont have any beat on blue tick, but i know the reason why they placed like that, i understand why they placed like that, i did absolutely same thing (exept that mine is folowing BGmusic not vocal), and those dont understand it.
Also such words as *this doesnt exist in music = must be removed* not an option
This is clicking game you can use anything if it clickssss well, sometimes its better to ignore the music just to make better clicking, sometimes its better add something to click.
I can show you a lot of high rating maps which have something that simply ignoring the music, where patern dont folowing music, but all this maps is high rated which means people like to click it no mater what they hear in music.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
To those posting flamebait: Stop. You're not helping anything at all. Direct your conduct towards getting the map set for ranking.

Edit:

I never forced tick rate 2. I simply explained why I suggest it. You obviously don't like to have it set to fit the music, and that is fine. It won't stop me from suggesting it still. Even in that 2 hour chat we had, I did not once say that you -had- to change it.

All of your other examples are in the same boat: I suggest it, but I don't force it. if I was trying to make others' maps into my own, my mods would be -very- different. The triples weren't random - I didn't say that. I simply felt that they weren't applied in the best place. I'll let those reply to your concerns about his mods though.

Rating doesn't mean much and you know it. Rating is more about the song than anything, unless the map is abysmal ('07/'08 maps).
mochi
779 posts
Joined June 2010
mochi

Garven wrote:

I suggest it, but I don't force it.
k, rebubble please.
Mythol
1,420 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
Mythol
Maybe you should talk to those
i've given up trying to convince him many months ago that not everyone's opinion is the same
and there is no opinion superior to another (concept he cannot seem to understand)
You saw what happened Garven
cRyo denied his mods, so he calls his BAT friends and threatens to nuke
clearly anything we say won't achieve anything so maybe you can help us?
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]
I never forced tick rate 2. I simply explained why I suggest it. You obviously don't like to have it set to fit the music, and that is fine. It won't stop me from suggesting it still. Even in that 2 hour chat we had, I did not once say that you -had- to change it.
No it was exactly like *you must change it* tick rate chat and OD-8/9 chat
If it was just simple suggestion that i can deny we wouldn have this 2 hours chat !
Or you just wanted to talk to me :3333 ?
The triples weren't random - I didn't say that. I simply felt that they weren't applied in the best place. I'll let those reply to your concerns about his mods though.
Such things as *this triplet plays bad* i cannot accept from you, sory but we both know that ur osu level is not that good (yes i spected you! :3)
If such thing came from Andrea/Chewin/MiLu (BAT/MAT/any High skill player) i would think twice before rejecting it, because all of them quite skilful players and there suggestions came during the playing, and im sure if they cannot play it well, then other lower skill players would have even more problems.
Rating doesn't mean much and you know it.
Nope it depends on the overal difficulty of the map.
If its easy 1pc fc map then yes, rating not saying anything
If map is difficult and have high rating that means that map is good, and all this overmaping works well here.
Konei
2,959 posts
Joined March 2012
Konei


Please remind this, guys ._.

From all I read here, all what Garven did was giving suggestions and trying to explain them.
Mythol
1,420 posts
Joined March 2011
Topic Starter
Mythol
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]
Elly-chan
969 posts
Joined January 2011
Elly-chan
Mapping IS a happy thing. Us MAT/BAT aren't simply trying to shove suggestions down your throat and force you to swallow them, and in this metaphorical case, change them; that's not it at all. We are giving you our best general input on them. I haven't read this entire thread yet, so go ahead and laugh at me if i sound like a complete and utter idiot, but this is simply my opinion on this: You all have to calm down and relax. Some opinions may not be changed because they are a single person's opinions, and hey: not everybody has to agree on them. Generally, in the mapper's standpoint, it may not be the ideal thing you want to change in this case saying you have a mod that makes sense but you think your way is better, but you have to be considerate and realize sometimes that your way isn't always the best way. You can learn from other's ideas as well as your own. MAT and BAT members aren't fucking evil. It makes me cringe when I see insults to the team. We give our inputs and help the ranking process and we get bullshit insults? Ridiculous. Grow up ((aimed at the general community who thinks this)). At least try to get along; stop the rude insults and stuff that I assume has been happening in this thread so far. We're all human, and we all make mistakes and have our own opinions; now, swallow that. As I've said before, mapping is a happy thing. Remember that, mmkay?

tl;dr: be considerate of other's opinions (mods); just because you may not think they're the absolute best or you're just too stubborn to change them because you think your way is the best doesn't mean that their points may not be sensible ALSO THIS IS FOR QUALITY CONTROL UGUU. Simply ignore this post if it has no relevance whatsoever to this thread's discussion; i haven't read the full fourth page of this thread.

Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,733 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne
I prefer a pic that shows "Mapping is a happy thing" by Elly to the NTR one xD

anyways, I think mapping is something that you have to compromise each other.

Sometimes I got a mod and I didn't want to change anything (not suited my concept) but I tried to find ways to fix and kudo them back because he/she tried to help me.

I saw cRyo explained clearly that she wants to keep them. Is it bad ?
And cRyo has proved that her maps are nice. I see many players&mappers add her as a favorite mapper on their userpage.
So I do believe that her sense is not bad at all(I didn't check her map yet but I do believe).

About the Rating, You can say that it depends on songs but at least, she didn't rank a bad map to the whole community.
I can say honestly that there are many good songs which are mapped badly and got rating not too high. So Rating is still something that can imply the quality how you feel while playing though.

to those : This game you can't send your emotion through the letter that you typed (maybe in real life, you are the moe one and saying extremely politely xD)
but a forum thread doesn't allow you to reply an emotion like that, and it's sad that we still do have a barrier of the language. So this is why you have to compromise each other , like other BATs MATs, they won't care much if mappers don't want to fix because those are "Suggestions".

to Mythol&cRyo : Good luck on the beatmap xD , I am looking forward to play this when it's ranked !! :)
Pokie
osu! Alumni
2,630 posts
Joined December 2009
Pokie
I wonder. How could such map get into argument?
h3k1ru
osu! Alumni
1,910 posts
Joined March 2010
h3k1ru
Konei
2,959 posts
Joined March 2012
Konei

Pokie wrote:

I wonder. How could such map get into argument?
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
While moderators should mod maps regardless of mapper, mappers should read/apply/reject mods regardless of moderator.
If you're wondering how these arguments start, there are two major issues in this: mappers taking ranking for granted then getting upset when a stricter BAT comes along (Contact a BAT that ranks just because, get a lenient mod and easy rank following, profit), and mappers thinking mods target the mapper instead of the map (e.g. "you're not a really good mapper because" vs. "this isn't mapped really well because").

Frostmourne wrote:

I saw cRyo explained clearly that she wants to keep them. Is it bad ?
I'll use this opportunity to explain the three main points thoroughly so you can see why keeping them exactly the way the mapper had it is bad.
  1. 00:21:196 (6) - This is a matter of consistency. By using a 3/4 slider and a circle following, the mapper is suggesting that this represents the same thing in the music as 00:19:300 (1) - , regarding both melody and drums. Also keeping in mind: if 00:21:196 (6) - was made 3/4, why wasn't 00:15:679 (3) - made 3/4? Why wasn't 00:17:748 (3) - made 3/4 + circle? This is more of a consistency issue; if 00:21:196 (6) - was shortened or extended it would eliminate this problem.
  2. 01:05:507 (3,1) - This is a matter of object approach. This particular one was pointed out, whereas 00:38:610 (7,1) - and 00:41:886 (4,1) - were not. The difference between these is the usage of spacing before the stack is played. With a smaller spacing, there is less momentum and in turn, the stack after a small break will not feel as awkward. However, before the latest updated version, 01:04:817 (1,2,3) - was made of two very large jumps compared to the other objects around it. As a result, after 01:05:507 (3) - is played, a break may or may not be anticipated, but if the next object 01:05:851 (1) - is made a similar spacing as 01:04:817 (1,2,3) - , the momentum keeps the flow going. This is evident through thorough testing; even after many plays and knowing that the stack was there, I found myself moving the cursor away after I played 01:05:507 (3) - , and then the cursor moved back to the same location for 01:05:851 (1) - which felt very strange.
  3. 01:39:817 (1,2) - This is a matter of spacing. Simply put, because certain objects had to be stacked and certain objects were meant to be a reflection, the places in which 01:39:817 (1) - can be placed are limited. By inspection, 01:39:817 (1,2,3) - should be as close to an equilateral triangle as possible to preserve spacing. All it takes is a little time to move 01:39:817 (1) - around and reflect it to get an appropriate spacing; at the state it was in (1,2) had 20% less spacing than (2,3), and it had 16% less spacing than 01:39:645 (3,1) - . This large margin of inaccuracy caused a not so comfortable movement for 01:39:817 (1,2,3) - , and this seems to be a result of an object just arbitrarily placed on the screen.
Perhaps it is my fault that I did not immediately post the above when I began to mod this map - or maybe I just didn't want to spend unnecessary time due to the history of "lolno" replies - or maybe the mapper's understanding wasn't exactly at the level required to see the reasons behind why the things I pointed out are problems without me pointing things out explicitly.

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

Lets take this map
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/182268
00:14:567 (1) -
00:17:459 (1) -
00:21:434 (3) - this one even have beat in the middle of slider
00:26:133 (1) -
and even more and more, and all of this sliders dont have any beat on blue tick, but i know the reason why they placed like that, i understand why they placed like that, i did absolutely same thing (exept that mine is folowing BGmusic not vocal), and those dont understand it.
Except...only you're not doing the same thing. I understand why this was done this way, and I actually more or less approve of it, even though I believe it was only accidentally done the way it was (the only mistake regarding the current 3/4 sliders was at 01:23:422 (1) - ). Good try, though. Oh, and the cursor for that map isn't centered.

Frostmourne wrote:

like other BATs MATs, they won't care much if mappers don't want to fix because those are "Suggestions".
Are you trying to tell me that I care too much about the ranking process, or are you trying to tell me that other BAT/MATs don't care enough?

I'd like to stress again:

those wrote:

The typical view you have of us is that if something is ranked in the server, it is forever fine to use in every scenario.
Drop this view. Not every BAT has the time to mod every map, so if things slip past certain members of the team it doesn't automatically make it fine. Call me one of the strictest BATs if you want, but that's all I am. I am not critiquing you; I am critiquing your map. I want to agree with you, I want you to agree with me, but if I've given my reasons you better do your part; it's your map anyway.
cRyo[iceeicee]
1,885 posts
Joined May 2011
cRyo[iceeicee]
OK i understand, to use this kind of patern i need drum sound (any sound) on blue tick

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/177362
00:52:567 (8) - no sound on blue tick
01:08:039 (1) - no sound on blue tick
01:09:548 (1) - no sound on blue tick
01:11:058 (1) - no sound on blue tick
01:07:096 (6) - beat apperas at 01:07:284
Ur mod is like - YOU MUST follow music precisely, otherwise nuked
so
00:14:265 (3) - should ends 1 tick earlier
00:17:284 (3) - should ends 1 tick earlier
00:20:303 (3) - should ends 1 tick earlier
00:23:322 (4,5,6) - not exist in music
00:43:888 (1,2,3) - not exist in music
etc. etc. etc. etc.

Funny thing is
00:21:190 (6) - you saying this slider can be either shorten to 00:21:363, or extended until 00:21:535
Its like right way to fix this patern !
But how can i shorten it if there is NO DRUM SOUND at 00:21:363 ?
Isnt it against ur own rules ?
Why I dont need drum sound to end slider 00:21:363, but i need it if i want to end slider at 00:21:449 ?
Also keeping in mind: if 00:21:196 (6) - was made 3/4, why wasn't 00:15:679 (3) - made 3/4? Why wasn't 00:17:748 (3) - made 3/4 + circle?
Oh its very simple, that what we call *different variety of paterns*

About my stacks they plays absolutely fine for me, you cannot call it spacing error, unreadable patern etc
So that means i can simply reject ur suggestion about moving them to other places.
You saying they plays not good, well i want them to plays like that.
This is Insane, i can use any kind of spacing here, the only thing that it MUST be readable, and current one is clearly readable, i dont see any good reason to make this patern easier, if i want easy map i would use 1.0ds everywhere

I just didn't want to spend unnecessary time due to the history of "lolno" replies
There wasnt any *lolno* replies, i clearly explained everything in my first post
But there was some *lolno* mod, did you saw it ?
Oh yeah it was urs
Are you trying to tell me that I care too much about the ranking process, or are you trying to tell me that other BAT/MATs don't care enough?
You dont care you simply like to create drama from nothing.
Seems like you enjoing this kind of threads dont you ?
Call me one of the strictest BATs if you want, but that's all I am.
You acting like you know everything better then anyone else, thats all you are.


Except...only you're not doing the same thing.
KK
first sound - 00:21:196
second sound - 00:21:541
nothing between them
use long slider, fits ? YES
why did i end it on blue tick ?
to make second sound 00:21:541 clickable, emphasize this sound

NTR
first sound - 00:14:567
second sound - 00:14:928 (sound = vocal)
emphasize
use long slider, fits ? YES
why did i end it on blue tick ?
to start vocal with clickable patern, emphasize

those
first sound - 01:08:039
second sound - 01:08:416
nothing between them
use long slider, fits ? YES
why did i end it on blue tick ?
And your answer is ?!?!?!?
Konei
2,959 posts
Joined March 2012
Konei

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

You acting like you know everything better then anyone else, thats all you are.
cRyo, please note, that every BAT/MAT wants to help improving this map :<
I think those is just suggesting things of which he think could get improved.
But if you don't want to change with a valid reason it's your own decission.
So please end this drama and let's just try to find compromises instead of going wild on each other.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

OK i understand, to use this kind of patern i need drum sound (any sound) on blue tick

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/177362
00:52:567 (8) - no sound on blue tick This one is a mistake.
01:08:039 (1) - no sound on blue tick Listen for the bass note before the snare is played at 01:08:416 (2) - .
01:09:548 (1) - no sound on blue tick
01:11:058 (1) - no sound on blue tick
01:07:096 (6) - beat apperas at 01:07:284 Beat appears at both times, I could have done it either way but I chose this way.
Ur mod is like - YOU MUST follow music precisely, otherwise nuked
so
00:14:265 (3) - should ends 1 tick earlier
00:17:284 (3) - should ends 1 tick earlier
00:20:303 (3) - should ends 1 tick earlier
00:23:322 (4,5,6) - not exist in music
00:43:888 (1,2,3) - not exist in music Hi-hats. Perhaps you should turn up your speakers.
etc. etc. etc. etc.
Either I'm not following the right map, or your audio output device isn't clear enough for you.

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

Oh its very simple, that what we call *different variety of paterns*
You're trying to shove "inconsistency" off as "variety". I don't think that's the right way to approach it.

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

Except...only you're not doing the same thing.
KK
first sound - 00:21:196
second sound - 00:21:541
nothing between them
use long slider, fits ? YES
why did i end it on blue tick ?
to make second sound 00:21:541 clickable, emphasize this sound

NTR
first sound - 00:14:567
second sound - 00:14:928 (sound = vocal)
emphasize
use long slider, fits ? YES
why did i end it on blue tick ?
to start vocal with clickable patern, emphasize
There's a key difference that you seem to have missed. A place to start would be to wonder why I mentioned that 01:23:422 (1) - in Alicemagic wasn't done right. To give you a very obvious example:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/192106 Compare00:30:058 (1) - and 00:31:904 (1) - .

Konei wrote:

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

You acting like you know everything better then anyone else, thats all you are.
cRyo, please note, that every BAT/MAT wants to help improving this map :<
I think those is just suggesting things of which he think could get improved.
But if you don't want to change with a valid reason it's your own decission.
So please end this drama and let's just try to find compromises instead of going wild on each other.
To add: if I didn't know that I knew better than you, I wouldn't be going on about this map.
Konei
2,959 posts
Joined March 2012
Konei

cRyo[iceeicee] wrote:

There wasnt any *lolno* replies, i clearly explained everything in my first post
But there was some *lolno* mod, did you saw it ?
Oh yeah it was urs
Btw, firstly nobody said your reply was a "lolno" reply and second those had good reasoning for his points, so yeah.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn
and mappers thinking mods target the mapper instead of the map (e.g. "you're not a really good mapper because" vs. "this isn't mapped really well because").
maybe it's just me
but when mods say something isn't mapped well when it's specifically the intention of the mapper to map it that way, that's more like an insult to the mapper and his/her style. For good mappers like cRyo, do you ever stop to think "okay, xxx is a good mapper, maybe they know what they're doing and what's best for their own map and I'm the one who's wrong?". Then you ask the mapper to think that way.

when I would mod maps, if someone denied a suggestion, I always figured they had a reason to keep it that way and hopefully I could look back and learn from what got denied. Sometimes I wouldn't understand it, but other times I would. Even a reason like "it's my style" or "I wanted it like this" could help me to learn a bit because I now know the mapper has some unexplainable reason for it based off feeling or something else. There is not just your own way to map a song, people have different ways of mapping based off their own feeling, and to actually improve a map mods need to understand that. What you're doing is more like "change it or nuke" which implies that you're the only one who knows what you're doing. The fact that so many people defended this map means most people find the way it was mapped makes sense and is fun to play, and so your attitude of "change it or nuke" when you can't understand how something is mapped just doesn't improve anything.

normally I would keep quiet. but i've seen enough of this > <//

EDIT:

those wrote:

I've seen enough of this, too. But my "this" refers to "mapping with no justification".
The fact that so many people defended this map means most people find the way it was mapped makes sense
if people can understand it, it means there has to be something to be understood, e.g. the justification for mapping it that way.
Last edited by pieguyn , edited 2 times in total.
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