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posted
Hello it's me again

This rule
osu! difficulties must convert to other game modes without breaking star rating/performance points. In certain cases, a .osu file can be formatted improperly, causing converted difficulties to incorrectly display star rating and reward inaccurate performance points.
First up, it needs to be moved to the osu specific RC. It does not apply to taiko, catch, or mania since those modes don't convert.

Second, this should be amended to be more inclusive of not just editor errors, but patterns that result in significant SR inflation.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1674139&m=2 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1562546&m=2 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1398809&m=2

Pandemonium is Exgon's 11th best play and even I can play that map with high accuracy. The difficulty comes from praying that you're positioned in the dead center of a buzz slider with high horizontal speed. There is very little skill relative to how much reward it gives. Eg https://puu.sh/CLyCC/62a154d285.png https://puu.sh/CLyDs/35d20cd412.png

The example in the image, Chirality, had its SR raised from 5 to 11, and would result in becoming the highest SR map in catch while being completely playable.

Something should be added to include avoiding patterns that cause a significant increase in a map's star rating, I'm not entirely sure on exact wording right now.
posted
Hi.
I'll give my reasoning on why I completely disagree with this amendment to the ranking criteria. In my opinion, implementing such a proposition would not only be unpracticable, but also unclear and too vague. If this is implemented into the RC instead of it just being a guideline, this would also hinder creativity.

First and foremost, it would imply that when modding a mapset, modders of a full standard set would take a look at other modes. You cannot expect of somebody to know all the intricacies of what is or what is not breaking the PP system of every mode, as we already see that mappers have trouble understanding how to not break the Star Rating of a map in their own mode. A map for osu!std shouldn't have to worry about the RC of other modes, else, it would be a nightmare to mod.

A lot of maps are inherently broken because of a reverse arrow in osu!ctb for example, but nobody noticed them. For example, the SR of https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=1582621&m=2 is inflated due to reverse arrows. Or does it not break the star rating "enough" relative to the map difficulty ? Should mappers really need to always ask themselves what would be the range where reverse arrows should or should not be allowed relative to the difficulty of one's map converted in another mode ? It would be completely insane.

We cannot forget that what is broken in the Star Rating is different for each mode. For example, if every osu!std beatmap should be made in regards of the other modes, too many factors exist for it to not break the SR in them. Are osu!standard mappers supposed to lower the OD of a map because it gives too much PP relative to the patterns in osu!taiko ? Or should we hinder creative hitsounding too, because it messes with converts in this mode also ? How do you want to map the reverse arrows of Pandemonium otherwise ? Changing it would break the coherence of the map and would force the mapper to remap huge sections in order to accomodate for 3 reverse sliders that unfortunately were some pixels too horizontal or vertical for osu!ctb.

These issues are to be resolved by the people that works for the PP system relative to every gamemode, not by osu!standard mapper. This proposition twists around something that was in the RC to accomodate for a specific glitch in order to complicate the life of osu!std mappers. Moreover, we need to remind ourselves that this is an issue with the code ITSELF, this kind of patterns are intended to be calculated properly in the SR code, but is apparently misfunctionning.

As a sidenote, it always makes me chuckle to see Pandemonium considered as THE example of a broken map in osu!ctb. It has been FCed by ExGon, and weirdly enough, no other players, who tends to easily FC way harder specific maps relative to the SR in osu!ctb managed to FC it. The map almost doesn't affect the rankings as a whole, but it became a scapegoat for every problem of the current osu!ctb PP system.
posted
I generally agree with the above post. It isn't my job as a standard bn to avoid pp converts. For example, t-t-techno has 1/8 kicksliders which convert to extremely high pp 1/8 doubles in taiko due to the inaccuracy of the taiko pp system. Under this rule, that map would be unranked despite being completely rankable in standard because of the failing of an unrelated game mode's pp system. Obviously in cases which are easily remedied (rotating a slider, saving in editor once) etc. it is easier to just adjust the standard map accordingly but a line needs to be drawn with regard to changing standard maps to make up for the pp system in minigames.

I believe the much simpler and better solution is to make all converts score v2 and therefore not give pp... by now there are more than enough maps in every non-standard mode as well as enough maps getting ranked that converts are unneeded to maintain a content stream. Problems like this will keep popping up and having band-aid solutions that infringe on standard mappers is not going to hold up for very long.
posted

Nao Tomori wrote:

I generally agree with the above post. It isn't my job as a standard bn to avoid pp converts. For example, t-t-techno has 1/8 kicksliders which convert to extremely high pp 1/8 doubles in taiko due to the inaccuracy of the taiko pp system. Under this rule, that map would be unranked despite being completely rankable in standard because of the failing of an unrelated game mode's pp system. Obviously in cases which are easily remedied (rotating a slider, saving in editor once) etc. it is easier to just adjust the standard map accordingly but a line needs to be drawn with regard to changing standard maps to make up for the pp system in minigames.

I believe the much simpler and better solution is to make all converts score v2 and therefore not give pp... by now there are more than enough maps in every non-standard mode as well as enough maps getting ranked that converts are unneeded to maintain a content stream. Problems like this will keep popping up and having band-aid solutions that infringe on standard mappers is not going to hold up for very long.
as much as i would love to remove converts from the picture entirely, there is a pretty dedicated playerbase of them in ctb that would pretty much riot if we did this. while the band-aid solutions will not help in the long run, they are holding things together as we work on a fix. that being said, if it comes down to forcing v2 on all converted maps, that's fine by me.
posted
bns cant really be expected to understand the algorithmic particulars of the way a set converts to every single gamemode. i think there's maybe been like a dozen or so all-mode modders of any reasonable proficiency like, ever.

issues regarding convert mapping is best addressed at a development level tbh, not a criteria one
posted
yeah. well, i don't think score v2 would completely invalidate convert players as they would still have leaderboards - most converts that give serious amounts of pp do so due to an issue with the system (t-t-techno/rog /that deif map/ etc) so that can be avoided while still letting people play on leaderboards. and accompanying that can be something about hybrids having a normal as lowest diff so we can finally get rid of fucking tatatat on every single map voting a 1 =)
posted
I think the best solution here is to just wait until there is a problem. If a map is ranked, and it turns out that it becomes absurdly abusive when converted to another game mode, then it could be modified online to have that mode's score submissions no longer reward ranked/total score or pp (but the actual leaderboard could stay)

that should be a relatively small change on the dev side of things, and it doesn't require anyone to have knowledge of other game modes

e: I was going to look into this one myself but I guess most of the score submission stuff is on osu-web-10. open source when
posted
That sounds like a bug and should be treated as such?

@clayton this stuff is usually opened in case there are problems - third party programs such as hitsound copiers sometimes format .osu files in ways that the game conversion algorithm seems to not like
posted
delete convert :p
posted
Just let us have an option to make maps std specific
posted
@okoratu, I know, I was talking in the context that this solution should be applied (since there were multiple problematic maps addressed in OP). it doesn't seem like something that would come up very often so I think it's fine to leave it up for manual review. this way it also does the best job of allowing as many harmless converts as possible

not all of these are from formatting errors. some patterns naturally convert to unrankable or pretty abusive patterns in other game modes
posted
From a pragmatic perspective, catch could perfectly retain the converts in their ranking system if there is a dedicated playerbase, while taiko and mania could simply deactivate pp on converts, because
1) the algorithm for conversion is suboptimal
2) the resulting maps are of awful quality

There are mode-specific ranking criterias for a specific purpose: establishing a minimum of quality standards of what goes and goes not to ranked. Converts in taiko (probably in mania too) break almost every single rule that we have established in the RC, yet they somehow award pp.

Speaking of pragmatism again, I mention specifically that taiko and mania can live without converts in the ranking system as of today, considering that there is more than enough content as well as a constant flow of new content to allow the modes to self-sustain. The most utilized argument in the past against banning converts was that it reduced significantly the amount of possibilities a player had to experience the game mode, due to the lack of mode-specific difficulties. Nowadays, not so much.
posted

Raiden wrote:

1) the algorithm for conversion is suboptimal
2) the resulting maps are of awful quality
Mania: On lower difficulties, the converts (on most cases) plays well because of the simplistic rhythm selection present in the map.

These points [particularly the awful conversion] I think only accounts on higher difficulties since the converted map generates unique patterning of notes [some parts of the song that has similar rhythm yet the hitobjects varies] compared to a mania map of the same value which has some structure and less harsh patterns.
posted
converts were a solution to the lack of RANKED maps in other gamemodes, so they must give pp

however, this can't just be done away for the same reason easy/normal diff ranking has been mandatory: to accommodate all those low level players who want their favorite songs ranked. It's also for them to have something to play despite there being an overwhelming quantity of such maps by now (easy/normal diffs and converts outnumber any higher diff mode-specific map by a long shot). It doesn't make sense to me, but I guess that's the way it is.
posted
If you are looking for a map in your level range for mania or taiko, there are lots of mode-specific maps available you can choose from.

If you are looking for a specific song to play, it is likely it only exists as an auto-convert. Many low level players tend to search specific songs to play, rather than choosing among the thousands ones available.
posted
said low level players will not be affected if they don't get pp from the convert since they can still play it and their goal is to play the song not to farm pp
posted
what part of "issues with the algorithm should be addressed at the code level and not by deactivating pp for all converts ever" is particularly difficult to understand?

i don't get it. turning pp off for converts would massively impact the rankings for the gamemodes that have them, it'd be a full recalculation sorta deal
posted
yes, converts massively, negatively impact the game mode rankings xD
that's why they should be disabled. converts are always going to be horrifically unrankable under the game mode specific criteria, pp system working as intended or not (not, given the usual state of things). therefore they should be disabled once and for all since all the minigames have enough ranked maps by now that they don't need to fill in the gaps with shitty converts.
posted

Nao Tomori wrote:

said low level players will not be affected if they don't get pp from the convert since they can still play it and their goal is to play the song not to farm pp
No, their goal is to certainly get pp

but from their favorite songs

because who wants to play favorite song and not get pp


converts negatively affecting higher skilled players is an oversight. To fix that:

Ephemeral wrote:

issues regarding convert mapping is best addressed at a development level tbh, not a criteria one
posted
Just unrank all converts. They're not worthy of the ranked section. There is very little to no quality control on converted difficulties. There are plenty of gamemode specific beatmaps that I think they've served their purpose and are no longer necessary.
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