Arguments for 3 input buttons.

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +0
Topic Starter
Adept43
1. Giving people the option to use three fingers would allow more people to reach faster bpm's without resorting to ligament destructive techniques.

A real concern I have about this game is it premotes unnessesary strain on ligaments. Some of it is ofc unavoidable. Those trying to push the limits of human ability will find a way to break their hands and fingers playing this game no matter what. I am speaking more about the other 90%. A lot of songs people want to play are 190+ bpm, yet the techniques required to stream that fast with two bottons are quite destructive on the body. Everyone is ofc different, but my point is that people hurt themselves simply trying to play their favorite songs. In order to stream fast most people have to vibrate their entire arm whilest, in a somewhat controlled mannar, delaying the second finger to make a steady stream. This is quite harsh on the ligaments, and can easily lead to injury. Giving people the option to use three fingers would allow more people to reach faster bpm's without resorting to hand destructive techniques.

2. Using three fingers is not objectively better, it´s a trade-off.

Using three fingers makes streaming easier, which is ofc an advantage. However, for those already fast enough with two fingers it offers very little benefit besides reducing strain. It can be up to 50% faster, but in practice you are stuck using finger movements, which fundamentally limits your speed. More advanced techniques, while not healthy, are still faster.

At the same time, using three fingers requires a lot more training than using two. All patterns in the game become a lot more complex with an extra finger. Trying to build the correct muscle memory for all the different positions of your hand becomes a major obstacle to getting consistantly good at the game. Even streaming is very hard to learn to do evenly with three fingers.

3. It is already possible to play the game with up to four buttons.

If you are good at programming, you could make as macro that binds up to four buttons to the two in-game input with minimal problems. Any number of buttons with some limitations. There would be no way to tell if someone did this, because as far as the game is concerned all input with be either button 1 or 2. So adding an extra buttons doesn´t change much as it is already possible to play with three buttons.

Side note, I would argue such macros wouldn´t even break the "play fair" rule, since the input is 1:1 with the output in game: A button is pressed every time a circle is clicked in-game. You are basically dealing with software-implemented input device. The macro could even be built into a keyboard's hardware.

4. People already use all kinds of weird input devices.

Imagine 50 years from now. People are able to click mouse buttons with their minds to stream 1000 bpm via direct brain to computer interface solutions.

Jokes aside, the quest for an edge in-game lead to new types of input device to overcome the limitations of the game over time. For example, good drummer would very much like to use their skills in-game if at all possible. Trying to restrict the way people play is a losing battle in the long run.

5. A lot of people find it more natural to use three fingers.

It´s about giving people the option to play the way they are most comfortable with.
abraker
The thing you have to realize is that 3 buttons is no solution for the issue that you are describing. Say 200 bpm is too fast for typical player playing with two buttons. Let that be the boundary between alright and finger breaking. Mappers make maps at specific difficulties, so when they make a difficulty that is just hard enough to play but not finger wrecking it would at 200 bpm. Now allow support for 3 buttons. Suddenly the boundary between alright and finger breaking is raised to 300 bpm. The maps follow the trend. Previous 200 bpm difficulties would now be considered easier, and new 300 bpm patterns replace their place.

What is said is probably a bit misleading in the sense the mappers don't choose the bpm to map at. What you need to take away is that it will give an excuse for mappers to up the bar when it comes to fast tapping in maps. Suddenly you find yourself asking for 4 buttons and so on for the patterns not to be destructive on the body. This is a feedback loop of ever increasing amount of buttons to tap notes going at faster rates. My question is to what point and what is the point of that?

Adept43 wrote:

Trying to restrict the way people play is a losing battle in the long run.

5. A lot of people find it more natural to use three fingers.

It´s about giving people the option to play the way they are most comfortable with.
Be honest, you just want to stream faster or what? You are explaining the bulk of the issue in terms of being finger wrecking and speed limiting, not how three buttons is more comfortable than two.
Topic Starter
Adept43
"Mappers make maps at specific difficulties, so when they make a difficulty that is just hard enough to play but not finger wrecking it would at 200 bpm."

Stream speed is a very small part of what makes a song difficult. Mapping wouldn´t change.

"Suddenly the boundary between alright and finger breaking is raised to 300 bpm."

No. I already said "More advanced techniques, while not healthy, are still faster." Maybe I wasn´t clear enough: The techniques used to reach 200 bpm+ can not be used with three fingers effectively.

"Be honest, you just want to stream faster or what?"

I don´t have any problems streaming fast. I thought that was obvious judging by point 3 and 4.

I made a case for 3 buttons as non-harmful to the community. An optional way of playing. Worse in many ways but a good fit for some people. If 3 input buttons were implemented tomorrow people would rush to it thinking it "clearly better", only to a few weeks later abandon it as "not for me".
CCleanerShot
I know where you're coming from. I used to spam really high stream maps (till i almost suffered an injury) and admire 300+bpm streams.

But I don't think it should even be allowed as an option in game, rather external ways of adding a 3rd input should be promoted and encouraged for these players, because I think 2 keys on std is already intuitive and new players seeing a 3-key-usage checkbox for std and checking it isn't really the best idea.

This imo fits under the "Not really good to add design-wise but should be 100% promoted". I would suggest a notification on the 3-input after playing spamming 300bpm, but that would just be weird.
Osuva nimi HAH
As someone who always alternates fingers while playing, this has also crossed my mind. It would be a natural step up. I have tried to use mouse buttons as 3rd and 4th input, but to lesser success. I do agree with CCleanerShot that there is a possibility it will confuse new players, but having it in the client would in my opinion still be better. Let me try to argue to that point.

My (very limited) experience has been that new players tend to tap one button, and it's natural to do that even when given the option of the second button. So when trying to use both and playing poorly, it was at least my instinct to just tap one. Then when it came clear that the second button is also needed, I learned to use that. And in many cases one still plays primarily by tapping a single button.

So maybe having the third button would not confuse as much, if the instinct is to just use one. Am I making sense? Is this aligned with your experience? But it could come with some disclaimer/warning.

Would vote if able.
Skidooskei
I'm not really for this idea, it would personally completely change how osu is played.

Firstly, most maps that are known for their stream parts, e.g. Xi maps, would because much easier, less stamina would be needed making it way easier.

Also most importantly, timing would be really weird. For example if you were streaming, the first three notes would be pressed on a white tick, a blue, then a red. Once you start from the first button again you would be tapping on a blue tick? Doesn't really make sense. With this streaming would be become less timing and more spamming.
abraker

Adept43 wrote:

Stream speed is a very small part of what makes a song difficult. Mapping wouldn´t change.
There are many stream heavy maps where this would change difficulty significantly. Take Time Freeze for instance. It's full of HT scores because it's so damn fast. Adding a third button would ruin what makes it so difficult.

Adept43 wrote:

No. I already said "More advanced techniques, while not healthy, are still faster." Maybe I wasn´t clear enough: The techniques used to reach 200 bpm+ can not be used with three fingers effectively.
People will learn how to use three buttons effectively if you give it time, otherwise please explain how it cannot be used effectively.

Adept43 wrote:

I made a case for 3 buttons as non-harmful to the community. An optional way of playing. Worse in many ways but a good fit for some people. If 3 input buttons were implemented tomorrow people would rush to it thinking it "clearly better", only to a few weeks later abandon it as "not for me".
It is harmful to the community because it destroys the intent of difficulty mappers had for heavy stream maps prior to the change. The community approaches human breaking records with seriousness, and if you were to suddenly make that mean less, then you are ruining what players that follow human achievement anticipate.
cravenfiner
can’t you already do this by setting one of the mouse buttons to something on your keyboard in the input settings and making sure mouse buttons aren’t turned off in osu
Skidooskei
No, mouse buttons can't be changed. Only the 2 keyboard ones.
Nathanael
Two input keys are enough. That's one reason why the game is fun and competitive especially on higher difficulties.
Osuva nimi HAH

CCleanerShot wrote:

But I don't think it should even be allowed as an option in game, rather external ways of adding a 3rd input should be promoted and encouraged for these players, because I think 2 keys on std is already intuitive and new players seeing a 3-key-usage checkbox for std and checking it isn't really the best idea.

cravenfiner wrote:

can’t you already do this by setting one of the mouse buttons to something on your keyboard in the input settings and making sure mouse buttons aren’t turned off in osu

Skidooskei wrote:

No, mouse buttons can't be changed. Only the 2 keyboard ones.
After trying out an external program, I noticed that the effect is not the same as having three or four true inputs. The mouse buttons are treated as the same two inputs, so it is very easy to slightly leave the previous button as pressed and miss the next note because the program doesn't register the following press.
Skidooskei
This isn't to do with the topic you posted with, you're now just trying to prove everyone wrong. No one has supported this idea so I suggest you just leave it now, sorry about that :/
Full Tablet
Having more input buttons would make the game more interesting in my opinion, but it would be unfair for people who have played and set records with the 2-input limitation.

What about making the maximum amount of input buttons a map setting (like AR, CS, etc...), with all maps made before the implementation default to 2? Also, players could choose their own limit as an unranked mod.
CurvyMage
While yes there are some advantages, you can already do this, playing like Emilia or using the mouse for imputs total. Thais sacrafices aim which hurts most players 5 digit and above.
Topic Starter
Adept43
Abraker, following your logic, in a world were osu only had one input button adding a second would be impossible, as it would ruin the achievements of people good at playing with only one button.

Anyway, thank you all for your responses. While I still don´t think adding another button would be disruptive, I have come to the conclusion the community can´t be convinced of that currently.

From reading Nathanael's comment I got the feeling most players enjoy pushing themselves within the current competitive structure.

If the community at some point in the future start feeling like the game is getting boring / stale, 3 buttons might get more support as a way to spice things up. Until then, I think it´s best to put this request on ice.
abraker

Adept43 wrote:

Abraker, following your logic, in a world were osu only had one input button adding a second would be impossible, as it would ruin the achievements of people good at playing with only one button.
yes, exactly! My rule of thumb is if it requires a different number of inputs, then it should be counted as a different gamemode (or a sub-gamemode). Which is also the reason why different mania keymodes should be counted not as part as one gamemode.
abraker
This request is not aging well considering the recent 3 button streaming controversy

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