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posted
I don't think you can account readability into the difficulty since it's extremely subjective. I can't even imagine what people would come up to inflate the system with ninjas, overlaps and other bullshit. And if scorev1 HDHR is getting fixed, it should be scorev2 but slightly easier since Scorev1 HDHR is way easier than scorev2 HDHR if you use custom resolutions.
posted
yeah i dont think there's a world where sv readability can be well accounted for in sr/pp without causing problems or being easy to abuse.
for hdhr, even if it were made slightly easier and limited to 16:9 (or 4:3 like v2) like how hd is limited to 4:3 i think that would be an improvement over essentially having to config edit or find some workaround to get a custom widescreen res just for hdhr to be playable.
as for od affecting sr, there would be no reason map with anything <7 and i think it's fine the way it is now. to nerf ez(hddt) it should either have an additional inherent nerf to pp or scale the od to pp more harshly as you said imo.

also yeah there is no reason for converts to be in a ranked/pp-giving state at this point when they don't follow rc and a lot are just broken for this mode.
posted

Ney wrote:

just remove the entire gamemode

boom fixed
thanks for wasting your own time and contributing nothing to the conversation.

Anyways on to the REAL issue which is the ideas Jaye brings up.

Alchyr will continue to stress test and break his own algorithm to see how its going. I've talked to him every once in a while hopefully, he might be able to address some of the more tech heavy sides of this conversation.

Why the hell some patterns are classified more difficult than others? what might be difficult for one playstyle probably is easy for another. Why is that even taken to account. All i see out of that is a system where it'll create double standards.

As much as i personally hate speed maps, they shouldnt be nerfed. i hold the view that speed maps should be left untouched since it isnt really a pressing issue.

In regards to PP changes, i would like to see an system where a small PP boost is added to the value of a map if the map itself contains enough velocity in the changes in scroll speed of notes. maybe you could assign changes in speed, like ninjas and speed ups and slowdowns as some value and once it hits a certain threshold it'll activate a small, small bonus into the maps final original PP value calulation, how that would work is beyond me but thats my proposition to resolving SV matters.

CONVERTS SHOULD FUCKING DIE AND JAYE'S ARGUMENT IS VALID, nuff said, if needed and questioned i'll give my own reasons on top of his.

The readability dilemma: i think a way to solve it would be to remove all current PP bonus methods in regards to HD and HR mods. Then, simply, let the PP value calulator run it's values on whatever the map is as a NM map. Afterwards assign maybe a 1.06x multiplier on that final PP value if either HR or HD is played. ie. if a PF of a map gives 300pp, a PF with HD or HR of the same map would give 318PP. I argue that this would be fairer for all players since players who dont care about mods dont feel punished for not using a mod while the top players feel rewarded by adding a mod and pushing themselves.

The EZ solution Jaye proposes (to scale OD more harshly) is sound to me. but im not too sure how to handle that situation

HDHR should work like V2, nuff said. This isnt really even a debate

FL SHOULD DIE. legit, what fucking use does it have to ANYTHING. It's not even a mod used at normal tournaments. Top professional players don't use it (and dont even fucking suggest to me that we should include FL in TWC). normal players are too shit early on to even use it properly, and not assigning any pp to it doesnt even hurt anyone. Like, bruhhhhhhhhh why is it even in the game!
posted
hi

as for someone who can play hdhr v1 decently, i dont think it should to be changed. i think its seen as a cool niche thing in taiko and making it v2 instead will decrease its status as something to look at and be like "wow he played this hdhr?" v2 to me is just hd with slightly increased spacing between the notes, and isnt a real challenge

and as for converts, as someone who literally started taiko from converts, i might be a LITTLE biased when it comes to pp and all that. but taking away bonus pp seems too much. if u like to SS farm Normals and that sort then whats the harm in gaining the slightest amount of bonus pp from just playing the game?

[of course im hella biased and would love to keep pp on converts because i suck so bad i cant get pp any other way lolololdfkjlf, but i see the small minority say that they shouldnt give any pp at all which sucks to me. but im the type of person who want to negotiate this instead of just getting rid of it all together]

for FL... who cares Lol theres maybe actually 2 people who even dualscreen at all (and who get any pp from it), this argument is so weak. give me real evidence of this claim and ill change my mind on it. keep FL pp because memorization is a skill that should be shown and granted where its due.

everything else idc about; i cant speed, dont care about the SR, readability is interesting but i also dont care about the skill of hr that much. i only use hd because nomod is too dense on the screen for me to read properly. i use hr in the same sense as hd sometimes when hd becomes too dense with low scroll stuff.

those are my ops but idk if it matters
posted

Beat43210 wrote:

The readability dilemma: i think a way to solve it would be to remove all current PP bonus methods in regards to HD and HR mods. Then, simply, let the PP value calulator run it's values on whatever the map is as a NM map. Afterwards assign maybe a 1.06x multiplier on that final PP value if either HR or HD is played. ie. if a PF of a map gives 300pp, a PF with HD or HR of the same map would give 318PP. I argue that this would be fairer for all players since players who dont care about mods dont feel punished for not using a mod while the top players feel rewarded by adding a mod and pushing themselves.
This I don't think is the right solution to the HD & HR situation. The problem with this is that HD's difficulty is all visual while HR has a visual and OD component to it's difficulty but only awards based on it's OD component.

While I do understand that making SV matter in PP would potentially break the system I think there is other ways that we can approach this. The reason I am opposed to both mods just multipling the PP value by 1.06x is that it completely ignores how HR works. Sure a flat multiplier is fine for HD as it's a visual mod and if we ignore SV that's all that we really can do. The issue with doing this for HR is that a map with low OD is easier to ACC on HR than it is with HD while a high OD map is harder to ACC with HR than it is with HD.

So the fact that it is based on the map OD is somewhat fair. The main issue imo with the current system is that HD bonus never stops increasing while HR does. The reason for this is that the OD scaling isn't based on the SR as Jaye Mentioned.

For instance if you have a 1000 note song at OD6 (8.4 for HR) and get SS. Just to show some values for HD & HR comparison at different SR.

5* HD = 260.91
5* HR = 276.88

6* HD = 322.42
6* HR = 330.56

7* HD = 396.04
7* HR = 395.01

8* HD = 481.72
8* HR = 470.2

See the problem? They don't scale linearly. HR is worth more than HD at low SR while HD beats HR at high SR despite no change in ACC, Note Count, or Map OD. Personally I am of the opinion that OD6 is the breakeven point where HD & HR should be identical PP for SS play. Lower OD maps should award more HD than HR while higher should award more HR than HD. But regardless of the SR at around OD6 they should always be the same. I don't really have an idea for to to do this but the fact that one mod is affected by SR and the other isn't has always bothered me.
posted
why remove converts though lol
posted
Please let's keep this thread civilized.
posted
I agree with the convert suggestion. Converts should not be ranked, and as an extension hybrid mapsets including osu! and taiko difficulties should have a full reasonable taiko spread. No muzukashii/oni hybrid spreads for osu!/osu!taiko mapsets. The converts are bad.
posted

tatatat wrote:

I agree with the convert suggestion. Converts should not be ranked, and as an extension hybrid mapsets including osu! and taiko difficulties should have a full reasonable taiko spread. No muzukashii/oni hybrid spreads for osu!/osu!taiko mapsets. The converts are bad.
you would effectively be killing 90% of taiko’s content by doing this

I really don’t see a reason to remove them since they do literally nothing at the higher levels sans like two maps which can be fixed with a pp adjustment anyways, kind of seems pointless lol
posted

Jaye wrote:

Converts
They’re not Taiko maps; we have a ranking criteria with guidelines and a team of dedicated nominators for a reason. Converts are good for when a mode has no maps, but Taiko has existed for years and we have a heap of maps now. Please do not make these worth anything. I’m fine with them existing to have leaderboards, but like the Loved category that is all they should have (not even give bonus PP). As for other gamemodes, they can feel free to decide this for themselves.
This will likely be rejected by peppy.
posted
Completely missed this idea but it's been proposed to fix the visibility of HD when combined with mods that change scroll.
This would mean more visibility for HDHR and less for EZHD, so that would be a fix and a slight nerf still need some OD adjustments but yeah.

Also as mentioned by Edgar, we weight HD and HR the same competitively (same scoring multiplier in v1 and v2) so it would be fair to give them equal weight in some fashion when it comes to pp worth; OD6 is a good middleground since it's probably the most common and about the same difficulty for both. Subjective stuff but gotta pick a middleground somewhere, might as well be there.
posted

fieryrage wrote:

tatatat wrote:

I agree with the convert suggestion. Converts should not be ranked, and as an extension hybrid mapsets including osu! and taiko difficulties should have a full reasonable taiko spread. No muzukashii/oni hybrid spreads for osu!/osu!taiko mapsets. The converts are bad.
you would effectively be killing 90% of taiko’s content by doing this

I really don’t see a reason to remove them since they do literally nothing at the higher levels sans like two maps which can be fixed with a pp adjustment anyways, kind of seems pointless lol
Converts were not made by people - FACT
Converts were not designed by mappers for taiko gameplay - FACT
Almost nobody plays converts in tournament play - FACT
Non-convert maps are generally MUCH higher quality than convert maps - FACT
Convert content is overall garbage - FACT

Should we delete them/make them unplayable, no but to allow PP to be collected from maps that doesnt even take into consideration taiko's ranked criteria is complete bullshit. In fact i propose a new reason why converts shouldnt give PP

They can bypass taiko's ranked criteria
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