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Let's rework QAT stuff!

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Nikakis
Monstrata's proposal looks quite efficient, I would go with his
Monstrata
@ UC

Your post just seems like a lot of defending your own maps because yes, it's quite apparent that should we start proposing higher quality standards, more of your maps will probably become vetoed, same with other people you've listed. I don't think that's the point. If anything though, it just means your mapping style isn't considered to be good quality work if quality control is upped. Since you're close with some QAT related matters, you should know that the current quality control is at its absolute lowest. Anything can be ranked with proper reasoning and intent, and there are no bad maps, just different maps. If we start drawing more subjective lines on what is good quality, and drawing more subjective lines on when "proper reasoning and intent" is enough to forego quality concerns, we will probably end up seeing less of yours, hailie etc... other people's maps ranked. Unfortunately that's just how it is when you map unorthoxed, I feel like you just have to accept that possibility.

See, what I dislike about your proposal (a lot of it is good) is how you deal with quality concerns and "vetoes". The numbers are way too liberal, especially when one of the goals is for the QAT rework (imo) is to increase quality standards. What about quality standards is changing? Simple: tolerance. The current QAT is far too lenient towards any map, and I feel your proposal won't address that because the number is just too lenient.

As well, with your proposal there will no longer be quality control past the two BN's nominating the map. This doesn't seem like a good idea given how often we get dq's for avoidable issues. But of course, this is true for current QAT too. Whoever thinks that a BN who becomes a QAT suddenly stops making mistakes xD.

So big takeaway: I don't think the core of your poposed system really resolves one of the main issues which is quality control and tolerance for "subjectively bad maps with good reasoning/intent". I like the voting aspect as it's something I am really pushing for too. But I feel it should lean towards holding maps back, not require a supermajority in order to hold a map back.
Voli

UndeadCapulet wrote:

proposal
uhh idk but just a question, why do you direct everything in this thread towards yourself? you complain about the suggestions here being catered towards blocking your maps and spend a good few paragraphs defending them when nobody even attacked them, and then you propose an entire system built around promoting your maps? lol

i don't feel this is targeted towards anyone in particular, this is a long overdue rework proposal thread of a system that hasn't been working the way it should for a long time.
Irreversible
the solution is simple: rank everything without any quality assurance (except stuff that's forbidden in the ranking criteria, which can be neglected anyway, if i look at the extra section for example) and we won't have these problems then, it doesn't seem like we could ever agree on something. and UC, truth being told, your maps look like a beginner has opened the editor for the first time and enjoyed himself for a while. where stuff begins to differ tho is that you and your fellas have acquired a somewhat so huge ego that you simply went on reasoning everything with "that's how i intended it" - this is where the system fails, because people like you simply don't WANT to accept criticism. obviously, a beginner also intended a map how he placed it, that doesn't justify one single dime tho. they differ themselves from actually willing to listen to advise and listen what other parties have to say and improve themselves that way. unfortunately, many people, i'd assume because of the mentorship server mainly in the first instance, gave on this mindset of "this is what i intended, so i won't fix anything". this is simply why we are where we are. btw. i wonder why about 8 of the people you listed uc aren't in bn anymore

tl;dr: from my point of view there is no fix to this problem, so the best solution is to let everything into the ranked section once a mapper feels like it's ready.
Nao Tomori
That post above is why he made the thread about himself, cuz lately there have been a lot of crybabies on all his threads complaining about the qat, which is why these threads are being made in the first place lol.
Fycho
I also made a proposal personally, it shares some opinions with current existed proposals. Feel free to read and discuss:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LI93mTTw_xVMuHZW_d11mBzaswfhdvGQXpau8KEZ5zY/edit?usp=sharing
hi-mei
@uc
Alright, guess someone should finally speak up about your case huh

this thread is about making a system where my maps can't get ranked.

Well, YES.
YES.
Everyone explicitly explained why is that (Just read my post above about mapping concepts, tldr: you ignoring structure, rhythm consistency, spacing emphasis and appropriate hitsounding, tho while its not explained in RC, you keep abusing this loophole making an excuse that there are no rules so ehhh).
You basically dont care about quality and have mentioned that multiple times, just look at this:
https://puu.sh/ClAWX/b95231f79f.mp4

And even after saying that on a stream, publicly, you dare to write all this? lol

it's very important that people in this thread realize that the majority of the qat do not find my maps to be low quality, but instead consider them to be above average, or even great. multiple have even told me that a map i've ranked this year is one of their favourite maps of the year.

Oh yes, because most of QAT's are your friends? Mir, Lasse, Mao, Yuii, Kibbleru etc (and some of the bn list you provided). No shit they gonna complement your maps.
Actually, the fact that they are in QAT is one of the reasons this thread exists (and also, the reason of how fucked up the situation has come to).

At this point its so ludicrous to pin point some people in QAT/BN and their opinions, while its obvious for everyone that its all one huge "family" which defends its members.

it's very important that people in this thread realize that the majority of the qat do not find my maps to be low quality, but instead consider them to be above average, or even great. multiple have even told me that a map i've ranked this year is one of their favourite maps of the year.

Yeah, but your case is the contrary - your stuff doesnt bring anything new - it pulls things backwards to 2008-2010 years, when mapping was in stone age. Christ, even back then people were at least trying to make stuff good.

the general playing community should never be considered a prominent voice in the mapping scene, they don't know what's good and are easily swayed by hivemind mentality. any system that takes "backlash" into consideration opens up the ranking system to 1000x more abuse than what happens at the moment.


Are you saying that because 99% of relevant players dont like your maps, or you really think that players feedback doesnt matter? The intent of any map is to be played, it can be understood to ignore the feedback of playerbase that cant pass the map or get a good acc on it, but in your case its all different, players say its "eww"
https://clips.twitch.tv/AmazonianMuddyCucumberOSsloth

That feeling when your "fun" map is actually the opposite of fun.

mao gave out the tier 2 test on the bn server a few months ago, and after i took it, i got the second highest score out of any bn to take it. tests won't keep me out of the ranked section.

That doesnt indicate anything, the tests were brought up because of the bias/prejudgement rather than to keep you out.
Really tho, this thread isnt about keeping you out of mapping, its more about some high-ups not liking the outcry of the both communities of mappers/players and JBH leaving at the same time. So its about the time to review things. Dont take it personally much.

Whats really important here, is that we should finally get rid of a system where if you got 2 nominators interested in your map, there is NO fucking way someone can stop it, like, be you a QAT or a God or David Copperfield - the map going to get thru once you exhaust the modders (hello hailie) and wait a bit till community forgets about the map in question.
Smokeman
tbf what I proposed didn't even consider Anyone's maps as it would work regardless, as the maps wanting to go for rank are irrelevant when a mapper is not the one getting it to ranked but rather BNG members.

If you wanted to increase the diversity and quality of Nominators and thusly the QATs (for say, stopping friends circlejerk and introduce higher qual control) then you would have to make it more enticing for people who actually have the experience, knowledge, and technical skill to be an active part of the ranking process inducing a natural weeding out of those who are unfit.
Any system you build that wouldn't change that fact will be a waste of effort and everyone's time.
Any system based on community input will be a waste of time if what you want is "better quality"
Any system which just changes the hierarchy of the BNG or takes, or introduces function to its members will be a waste of time because you will still have the same people you are complaining about.

You cannot ignore the human factor in this as you select volunteers to do the job. And the guidelines for those picks aren't always based around they are the "crème de la crème" but rather because they have enough activity to keep the system running as too low of an activity doesn't even get you to be considered.

And that is fine. There is no reason for osu! to have quality control realistically. As long as new shit gets out w/o breaking the criteria the players will be happy. Every ranked map just adds to the vapid feeling of never ending content we have allowed people to expect. If your map doesn't give out enough PP or you are some highly regarded mapper then the average ranked map will be forgotten in about a week or two (unless you are some niche mapper). Now, you really think the BNG would care to try to get quality people for further pushing the same drivel out forever? You just want people who are capable enough to go down a checklist of things a map isn't allowed to do and that's it.
Such a system doesn't need for people who want to better maps, such people aren't rewarded by conducting such vapid tasks and rather punishes them for wanting to improve maps as that process takes much more effort and time than a casual Nomination check.

I tackled this notion of the current ranking environment in my original post and gave solutions to all of it. I think solving this issue is paramount to everything else. Just like mappers have started to circlejerk "anime" mapping so has the BNG in promoting those just to be able to easily make the quota for the month to not get kicked out... A toxic environment breeds toxic behaviour, who would've guessed.
abraker

hi-mei wrote:

Everyone explicitly explained why is that (Just read my post above about mapping concepts, tldr: you ignoring structure, rhythm consistency, spacing emphasis and appropriate hitsounding, tho while its not explained in RC, you keep abusing this loophole making an excuse that there are no rules so ehhh).
Maybe it will be worthwhile to make a thread discussing how to go about defining mapping structure and rhythm consistency in RC?
hi-mei
Well, some people are against it because in their minds it would do more harm than good. Even tho any single ranked map has some kind of these concepts, literally each one.

At this point we could easily inject the most basic stuff in RC. We only lack enthusiasm to do that.

Like, no shit, I'm down to do that with some help from MrSergio, we have been waiting for that for sol long. All we need is a direct command that its needed. We both like to make guides and stuff so it wont be that hard. We both have lots of experience in that stuff.
Cherry Blossom

abraker wrote:

Maybe it will be worthwhile to make a thread discussing how to go about defining mapping structure and rhythm consistency in RC?
This was an idea from those who were supposed to "reformat" the RC in 2015, but it has been dropped because of stupid things that happened in the same time that i don't want to remind.
Also, due to the large "diversity" of mapping, making a kind of guide like this would be difficult concerning insane diffs due to subjectivity over mapping ideas. I agree that it could be done for lower diffs at least, the main attention is focused on insane diffs but in lower diffs there is also a notion of "quality".
hi-mei
CB, I think youre taking it wrong - all we have to do is define an abstract concepts. Any diff of any map has structure, rhythm, flow, emphasis, aesthetics etc. We can define that in RC right now.
anna apple

hi-mei wrote:

@uc
Alright, guess someone should finally speak up about your case huh

this thread is about making a system where my maps can't get ranked.
Well, YES.
YES.
...
how much of a child do you have to be to sit there and constantly try to stop 1 person from ranking their map. If you are going to propose a SYSTEM. Your SYSTEM should be about including as many people as possible XD. idk why bother posting if ur gonna be like this
hi-mei
Yeah how much of a child do you have to be to take these lines unironicaly especially considering the last paragraph of my post.
Irreversible

bor wrote:

hi-mei wrote:

@uc
Alright, guess someone should finally speak up about your case huh

this thread is about making a system where my maps can't get ranked.
Well, YES.
YES.
...
how much of a child do you have to be to sit there and constantly try to stop 1 person from ranking their map. If you are going to propose a SYSTEM. Your SYSTEM should be about including as many people as possible XD. idk why bother posting if ur gonna be like this
1) It's not 1 person (regarding the "constantly try to stop 1 person"), like you do realize that the focus is on the maps that constantly cross every possible border and not the people behind (unless you want to take into account attitude, speaking of which, I rather feel like you are the child rather than hi-mei)
2) It's not only 1 person (regarding who proposes that certain maps simply don't belong to ranked and that ranked is a privilege)
Ephemeral
last call to get your shit in here - i'll be sitting down with the remnant QAT leadership on the 20th and going through all of the proposals/feedback listed in here before presenting them publicly

if you have a writeup/ideas, get them out now or forever hold your piss
Krfawy
Call me a blind one and I will agree on that term as I have quite an eye condition yet I can't see anyone complaining about the fact how people are managing particular difficulty levels. Of course, due to the fact the new duration rules are implemented people would say "who cares about lower diffs than Insane as no one has ever cared about them" and here I come again.

First of all, people are complaining about the issue of maps lacking of quality but it is only if it is about higher difficulties when anything is even attempted to be explained. Whenever we see animosity between the mapper and the modder about the lower ones where characteristics of a map become ambiguous people are, putting it severely subtly, reluctant to give any explanation to why things are made as they are which is caused by two simultaneous factors:

1. The new rules are structured in a way so people who clearly give no fudges about lower maps can get away with more than we used to allow in the past.
2. The community is too lazy to care about lower maps and they always think it's safe to spam with 1/2 sliders so everything seems 'easy enough to play for the newer playerbase.' As a result, more than half of the current community doesn't know how to map them and happens not to be keen as mustard on learning how to structure high quality easier maps.

It is high time someone agreed on the fact we need tiers in both BNG AND QAT teams where people are not in teams called "in probation" and "full ones", we'd rather need two factions called "people who can deal with lower maps" and "people who can deal with difficult maps". Obviously in some rare cases a few nominators would be put in both brackets. Just a reminder most people would fit only in one group and I am pretty sure no one will be happy about me saying that as I am being boldly honest. The "lower tier" would deal with maps counting hards and lower whereas the "higher tier" would deal with maps counting insanes and higher.

Of course, I am not qualified to judge other modes than the standard mode but as I can see most commotion happening in this thread is coming from the standard mappers, and so am I one.

And by the way, if someone is about to say "that would be too much work and no one is going to be that willing to take any action" - please, people in the staff had no issue with the tiers before where it was going to be a clear fiasco from the very beginning, so some logical solution, even if time-consuming, is going to be worth it. Not to mention the times where the nominators had to camp for their map modded to be qualified as there was a 8-map cap per 24 hours and if the limit was reached we had to wait and, as I said, camp for the cap limit to reset as if we were playing counter strike.

By the way two point o', aren't we supposed to put as much effort into mapping as possible to strive for the best results? Please, stop lying about the quality factors and striving for more variety, everyone knows this term is truly as rare as a myth about virgins attending high schools. Mappers always cover their inability to make maps as playable as possible with the fact of 'the ranking criteria saying it's acceptable to do so' or even with 'the song is long enough for the maps to ignore the rules and guidelines for the lowest difficulties' even if the lowest difficulty is labeled as 'normal' and it is really erratic to see such maps to play and behave as hards instead.

As someone who plays mostly easier maps I rarely happen to see anything good quality for this difficulty type and I actually have one dominant quality over people in the BNG and QAT who say "we can judge easier maps too". Namely, I am unable to play more demanding maps so my point of view is naturally more relatable as I can discover more faulty patterns and designs than the other who form the osu mapping police. Now try to convince me the 20K-100 tier players actually know what is unplayable for noobs, you are going to be laughed at by everyone with this reasoning for the most obvious self-explanatory point which I don't think I need to type about but I will do anyways: the better you play, the less things seem problematic to the players as well as they have extremely inappropriate and low skills in telling what noobs need in maps. The only exceptional cases I can think of right now are Andrea and aeril, whereas the second is not even a BN.
anna apple

Krfawy wrote:

As someone who plays mostly easier maps I rarely happen to see anything good quality for this difficulty type and I actually have one dominant quality over people in the BNG and QAT who say "we can judge easier maps too". Namely, I am unable to play more demanding maps so my point of view is naturally more relatable as I can discover more faulty patterns and designs than the other who form the osu mapping police. Now try to convince me the 20K-100 tier players actually know what is unplayable for noobs, you are going to be laughed at by everyone with this reasoning for the most obvious self-explanatory point which I don't think I need to type about but I will do anyways: the better you play, the less things seem problematic to the players as well as they have extremely inappropriate and low skills in telling what noobs need in maps. The only exceptional cases I can think of right now are Andrea and aeril, whereas the second is not even a BN.
I don't think you have the issue pinned down quite properly. Once players reach a point where they no longer need to play a difficulty, any understanding of those mechanics used in lower difficulties (namely the mechanics restricting their play) will cease to exist, this is because mechanics like "slider leniency abuse" will be use more and more frequently and choosing to not abuse slider leniency at greater difficulties makes those maps much harder for no real reason. This obviously applies to many more things about how newer players play the game. So when I open your profile and see a bunch of insane diffs in your top plays, I would find you are quite susceptible to the same faults as most (now) mappers are to in regards to understanding those mechanics. And would similarly be under the same scrutiny when it comes to properly judging diffs such as Easy, Normal, Hard; especially so in terms of their mechanics.

I actually agree quite heavily with the fact that many people don't care about lower difficulty QUALITY, which is and has been quite lacking. But along with the above mentioned reason, there are more factors in play when it comes to WHY this is occurring. Something that I don't think is really worth discussing in this form since, in BN applications, the QAT will review one's ability to mod lower difficulties to be of some "acceptable standard". I believe you should try to raise that standard via educating people and not pushing for some overly redundant system that already exists, just not being utilized yet.

As for someone within my rank range being unable to understand lower difficulties. > Wake up you narcissistic/egotistical fuck.
There are many people you are oblivious to who go around map threads and get them subjectively disqualified for lower difficulties. One of those people happen to be me. And yeah I'm able to explain in detail precisely what a newer player would do when approaching a map. In fact I did that right here: https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/738265/discussion/1825240/timeline#/619566, and once the map was qualified and people bothered to WATCH THE REPLAYS (instead of just looking at the scores) they realized that what I wrote was 100% accurate.

So no, you do not dominate lower difficulties. And no proposing some sort of redundancy in the system will be ignored. If you actually care about low difficulties as much as you propose you do, then you would do a few things.
-Learn what mechanics are used in what difficulty (learn)
-Make a public thread about how those mechanics work and for what difficulties (educate others)
-More frequently mod (at least the qualified mapsets) lower difficulties (enforce)
Krfawy

blacksocks wrote:

As for someone within my rank range being unable to understand lower difficulties. > Wake up you narcissistic/egotistical fuck.
There are many people you are oblivious to who go around map threads and get them subjectively disqualified for lower difficulties. One of those people happen to be me. And yeah I'm able to explain in detail precisely what a newer player would do when approaching a map. In fact I did that right here: https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/738265/discussion/1825240/timeline#/619566, and once the map was qualified and people bothered to WATCH THE REPLAYS (instead of just looking at the scores) they realized that what I wrote was 100% accurate.

So no, you do not dominate lower difficulties. And no proposing some sort of redundancy in the system will be ignored. If you actually care about low difficulties as much as you propose you do, then you would do a few things.
-Learn what mechanics are used in what difficulty (learn)
-Make a public thread about how those mechanics work and for what difficulties (educate others)
-More frequently mod (at least the qualified mapsets) lower difficulties (enforce)
I am happy that people do happen to be able to find few essential issues in easier maps once a year. Also it's an extreme pleasure to be informed about being uneducated on the mechanics used in the easier maps even though I've been showing the exact opposite for five years now, as well as modding maps with both pending and qualified statuses. Also, do you think I am capable of making videos and posting them on YouTube and educating the audience dearest on how to improve the mapping standards? Do you think I am owning the computer that is stable enough to even play osu and not to mention to make anything significantly demandiing such as tutorials? If I were, I would do that a long time ago. Instead, I am educating people case by case and most of the them happen to be from Poland which cases can be shown on my own beatmaps or supported by me, be it by contributing to the mapset as a guest mapper or a modder, because I do enforce some standards and obviously I am doing so in this particular category of mapping. Also, as long as I understand that my posts might be a bit too sarcastic and not that understandable for the taste of a generic user, especially given the fact that the English language is not my mother tongue, I am amazed by the fact you are giving me even more sarcastic and ridiculously constructed sentences. I have stated that I do have a quality that makes me more reliabe than most people in the BNG and QAT on this matter but where have you seen me say that I "dominate the lower maps"? Excuse you, could you please be polite enough and fix your register a little bit? I do not recall myself calling people "egoistical fucks" so I demand the same from you, especially as it shows a lack of your ability to behave in public and not mine. Obviously, I and my friends do call ourselves names when we talk to each other but we do it in a more casual and fun fashion, not in order to drag each other down, for Lord's sake. Also, if you were so into detailing my scores you would've noticed my Insane scores are: a) old; b) not that impressive; c) these maps are actually on the very low part of the 'difficult' spectrum.

And on the last note, just because you think I don't look at what the modders do it doesn't mean it's actually true. Of course, I can't look at everyone's works done but I do look at some of them, especially when I see some opinions that I agree or do not agree on. Not to mention the fact from time to time I am asked for my opinion on some matters, most recently on Nuvolina's FA map for SR3L's Candy song. I've been always attempting to be as vocal about my actions and opinions as possible so I am surprised you're acting as if I were doing nothing but fooling around in this community for the whole course of my existence in this game. As long as I do have troll tendencies I also happen to be serious about mapping as I started creating my own maps for two solemn reasons, namely: some songs I like have never been mapped; the easier maps have almost never been that easy to be actually played and osu is my first and only rhythm game I have ever played, so why not giving myself a chance in the mapping industry.
Myxo
@Krfawy
The problem with your thinking is that you seem to think the easier a lower difficulty is, the better. This might sound reasonable at first glance, but it really isn't for a rhythm game. I usually determine the quality of a lower difficulty by how well it expresses the song and how well it fits into a mapset's spread, and I think a lot of BNs and QATs would agree with that.

All I ever see you doing is complaining about Easy / Normal diffs being too difficult, while not understanding that the point of difficulty levels in osu! isn't to bound maps to very specific difficulty elements, etc. There's a reason why the ranking criteria is as loose as it is regarding that. You say the easier maps have almost never been that easy to be actually played, but if with that you just mean on first or second try, or you expect to actually do well on the maps (full-comboing them or having a high accuracy), then that might be true. But obviously you managed to eventually get into the game just like any other active player, by practicing and getting better gradually, and this is a very typical scenario for a game with community based content like osu!. In an official rhythm game, especially a linear one, you could have a couple of introduction difficulties and then proceed on to harder stuff. You would probably start with something lower than osu!'s Easy or Normal meta in that scenario. But it doesn't make sense to force people to go that low while compromising rhythm, contrast and song expression as a whole on their sets in a huge game like osu!.

If you want to continue pushing your extremely simplified approach to Easy and Normal mapping (which sadly often compromises a lot of other mapping aspects heavily), you can go ahead with your own maps, or influence your friends or mentees. But there's no point in changing the system to support these views, especially not with a split in usergroups.
anna apple
@krfawy I didn't demand educating others would be restricted to recording videos and uploading them to youtube. You realize there are many guides on mapping and more in the forums. And you can just get any reputable person to promote your thread if your ideas are really compelling.

Krfawy wrote:

Not to mention the fact from time to time I am asked for my opinion on some matters, most recently on Nuvolina's FA map for SR3L's Candy song.
but you didn't post a single thing on the low diffs so how is this any relevant to topic lol.

anyways I think Myxomatosis put it quite well.
yaspo
welp, went ahead and dumped some of my thoughts into a google doc under the premise of not holding my piss. Can't pretend I'll write an actual proposal forever. Mostly just opinions that maybe have been mentioned already, take with grains of salt
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JKreb4AiKVXGKUL1_INFKyhh3zVd-XO1nqPWoTXS_KU/edit?usp=sharing
Nao Tomori
results when
Uta
results when. also bn test when
UndeadCapulet
can y'all open bn apps and do probation results and shit, holding that off until after this super lengthy process is resolved is fkin retarded
Joe Castle

UndeadCapulet wrote:

can y'all open bn apps and do probation results and shit, holding that off until after this super lengthy process is resolved is fkin retarded
Mao
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