[Proposal] osu!mania Ranking Criteria (whole draft)

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Kawawa
Difficulty Specific
- Insane Guidelines
Using jump trills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. Unless a beatmap uses jacks frequently or other complex patterns frequently, this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the mini jack.

umm I know It's for guidelines but here something weird a bit.
If we restrict it, all the jump trills will have the same type to avoid a jack. and especially for 4K, the limit of SR is depends on the BPM. so most of them are ended as Insane difficulty. so most 4K mapsets will be same place on the ground If we mind it. so yeah It will make a huge change in the future. so before making the final decision for insane guidelines, need to think the past. what I'm trying to say is that the thing has never been considered in the past of osu!mania history since the communities are satisfied about the freedom of pattern choices. And yeah still not really have a negative impact because It's preferentially judged by BNs in the process of the ranked. so I wonder it should be on here.
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion.

anyways, all the rest are fine to me. good work!
MEGAtive

Arzenvald wrote:

5 consecutive 1/4 notes
Is this mean we can put 5 1/4 on faster bpm song? which certainly not cool, Or is there any certain bpm threshold for this?
I remember reading the preface of difficulty-specifics saying guidelines are using BPM180 as the standard and anything faster/slower should use it reasonably.

EDIT: Yea it's definitely up there. I just checked.
AchsanLovers

Kawawa wrote:

If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion.
yea, im agree with kawawa
Full Tablet
Beatmaps can only use 4 to 9 keys. Anything else is not properly supported.
What does "not properly supported" mean? Other key modes play properly in the game client.

Long notes that are held simultaneously must be released at the same time. Long notes with multiple release timings require coordination that players of this level cannot reasonably handle.
Forbidding this pattern for Easy and Normal seems a bit excessive to me. If there is a progression in difficulty from Easy -> Normal -> Hard, players should attain the muscle memory required for basic LN patterns before they encounter some more advanced LN patterns in Hard maps.

I think this should be a guideline for Easy instead, and restricted only to LNs that are released with the same hand. For normal, make it a guideline that restricts different release times if they are in fingers that are next to each other. Also, for both difficulties, there should be a minimum of time between one release and the next one (about 2 seconds for Easy and 1 second for Normal sounds fine to me).
Shoegazer
Split jumptrill: A jumptrill which uses both hands at the same time to perform correctly - i.e two one-handed trills.
A [12][34] jumptrill also requires both hands to perform correctly. You might want to define it as a jumptrill which requires two one-hand trill motions to perform correctly instead.

The term "one-hand trill" should also be added if you have "split jumptrill" in the glossary.
Every note should correlate to a sound present in the music.
The guideline did not state whether the note-to-sound correlation must be consistent (barring exceptional circumstances). This is particularly important to distinguish because there are many maps that are not necessarily consistent in its layering in the ranked section, yet layering consistency is something that is valued in many mapping circles. I mentioned this before in the previous draft, but I didn't receive a response.

There are also certain notes that technically go to multiple sounds at the same time, like a LN where the LN head is justified by a hi-hat and the LN aspect of the note being justified by a syllable (vocals). Certain moments of the song with no percussion but vocals will not have any note in that moment of the map. How do you deal with cases like these, where a certain type of note (not but the note itself) correlates with a sound?

There are also some edge cases where notes do not strictly correlate with the start and end of a sound should be added because of the properties of the sounds that are supposed to be captured, but that's a different discussion altogether. I wouldn't mind discussing about this further with the people at hand.

Exceptions in favor of simplification should be made when following the music completely accurately...

would be unreasonable to play with full accuracy.
would be effectively represented with a consistent, predictable snap
would cause an inappropriate difficulty spike.
- Almost all instances where a section is unreasonable to play if a map were to capture a rhythm with maximal accuracy are due to inappropriate difficulty spikes in terms to either physical demand or rhythmic complexity. "would be unreasonable to play with full accuracy" is redundant and should be removed.

- What does this mean for instances like using a 1/6 stream for a 1/8 rhythm? A 1/4 non-LN stream (or even 1/2 non-LN stream) to capture a 1/8 rhythm has been permitted before, and a 1/6 stream is typically more effective in representing a 1/8 rhythm than a 1/4 stream in terms of general intensity. There are also cases like 1/16 swing that have to be considered.

- "Difficulty spike" needs to be defined further. Are you referring to difficulty spikes in terms of density, or can it refer to difficulty spikes in timing difficulty? Maximally accurate guitar solos are notorious for being very difficult to time for KB play, and they would be considered "spiky" despite not being too much harder than a straight 1/4 or a 1/6 stream.

Long notes should not have release timings that use different timing snaps. For example, long note releases should not have a 1/3 snap on the end of it and a 1/4 snap at the end of another.
The rule seems pointless without giving a justification for why this rule is instated. The only reason that I can think of is that you would like releases to be justified by the "release" aspect of a note, but many many maps already violate this rule if you were to care about releases that stringently.

There are also occasions where releases on different snaps would be justified based on where the notes end in the song.

Difficulty-specific guidelines:
If Normal is the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set, it has to abide by these additional rules:

Consecutive 1/4 snaps may only be two notes long. More dense rhythms are not appropriate for the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set.
This is extremely important (and I'm not sure if this is overlooked), but consecutive 1/4 snaps should be three notes long at least. In a map with mostly 1/2 rhythms, a 1/4 gallop (2 consecutive 1/4s) requires omitting a potential 1/2 note, which would cause timing difficulties (especially for new players) and major issues if you were to layer a certain sound consistently.
Jack usage is discouraged. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level. Minijacks with ample rest time in between may be acceptable.
You should specify that you are referring to 1/4 jack usage. 1/2 jacks (90 BPM 1/4s in this example) are usually far more bearable to players who are just approaching Hard difficulties.

If Hard is the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set, it has to abide by these additional guidelines:

Chords within streams are discouraged. The density of these patterns is often too difficult for players of this skill level, especially when used on the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set. However, using a chord at the beginning/end of a stream is fine.
I believe that giving a set frequency for the number of doubles that can be used per beat would be better here. Doubles every 2/1 seems like a more reasonable cutoff than "only a chord in the beginning and/or the end".
Avoid 1/8 streams lasting longer than 4 beats. Streams of this type of snap are hard to execute and should only be used if the song warrants it.
Is this only referring to non-rolly streams? There are several maps that have very long 1/8 rolls that are permitted into the ranked section (e.g. Blue Dragon). If you're referring to non-rolly streams, do include that.

Using jump trills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. Unless a beatmap uses jacks frequently or other complex patterns frequently, this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the mini jack.
This does not align with the Hard guideline where 1/4 minijacks are practically not perimtted (barring minijacks that are very infrequent). A jumptrill is a very simple motion, and a minijack into a triple is not particularly difficult. I don't mind this rule personally, but it seems a bit odd to disallow minijacks like that when those patterns are only hard when they appear frequently.

Avoid more than 5 consecutive split jump trills. These are more physically exhausting than other patterns of similar density.
This should be rephrased as "5-note split jumptrills". That said, I think that 9-note split jumptrills should be the maximum instead of 5. This one is a bit more contentious, though.

Other things that I didn't list I didn't think they were issues, or I've never tried experimenting with (e.g. SVs).

Apologies if this was listed anywhere, but what is the goal of the new ranking criteria? I understand that the ranking criteria is supposed to be something like "minimum requirements" for maps, and the updated ranking criteria seems to have more specific rules on the minimum requirements for specific difficulties, but is there any other motive behind the updated ranking criteria?

For instance, there was a discussion on whether dump charting/mapping should be permitted, but there are several rules that go against this (e.g. the general LN length guideline and how each note must correlate to specific sounds). I'm personally ambivalent on the idea of allowing dumps, but I know that a fair section of the community is quite accepting of dump charting.

Besides that, are there any other goals or motives that the updated ranking criteria is set to accomplish? Again, I apologise if this has been mentioned before, but I haven't been in tune with the ranked section community or the ranking criteria because the circles that I'm in don't focus on the ranked section to begin with.
MEGAtive

Kawawa wrote:

umm I know It's for guidelines but here something weird a bit.
If we restrict it, all the jump trills will have the same type to avoid a jack. and especially for 4K, the limit of SR is depends on the BPM. so most of them are ended as Insane difficulty. so most 4K mapsets will be same place on the ground If we mind it. so yeah It will make a huge change in the future. so before making the final decision for insane guidelines, need to think the past. what I'm trying to say is that the thing has never been considered in the past of osu!mania history since the communities are satisfied about the freedom of pattern choices. And yeah still not really have a negative impact because It's preferentially judged by BNs in the process of the ranked. so I wonder it should be on here.
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion.

anyways, all the rest are fine to me. good work!
You could omit the second last jump as single and still ending the Jumptrill with triples, though. The pattern itself is fine but as far as I can see this kind of patterning are abused to pump up SRs which is not very good either. And speaking of Jumptrill variation, 90% Jumptrills I see up until now are full jumptrill ended with triples so I guess this guideline actually enforces Variation (?) Yea it wasn't a big deal but it may improve a map presentation quite a bit.

Shoegazer wrote:

This is extremely important (and I'm not sure if this is overlooked), but consecutive 1/4 snaps should be three notes long at least. In a map with mostly 1/2 rhythms, a 1/4 gallop (2 consecutive 1/4s) requires omitting a potential 1/2 note, which would cause timing difficulties (especially for new players) and major issues if you were to layer a certain sound consistently.
This is also my concern about this rule as gallops doesn't simplify a triplets. But I also thought that if Normal are using 1/4s triplets, wouldn't it be similar to Hard?
Honestly I never see an "Insane" map using chords mid-1/8 stream in ranked lul, even when the 1/8 streams are in roll. But my thought lies within the "Using a chord at the beginning or end of a stream is fine". You didn't specify what chord are acceptable for the stream opening and ending. Using triples at the start would made stuff feels awkward while using triples at the ending is pretty hard to execute. Or heck, you can still use quads for the opening and ending (which would be the worst case scenario but I think people aren't that dumb).

Yea, just define what chord are acceptable for the opening and ending portion of the stream.
Kawawa

MEGAtive wrote:

Kawawa wrote:

umm I know It's for guidelines but here something weird a bit.
If we restrict it, all the jump trills will have the same type to avoid a jack. and especially for 4K, the limit of SR is depends on the BPM. so most of them are ended as Insane difficulty. so most 4K mapsets will be same place on the ground If we mind it. so yeah It will make a huge change in the future. so before making the final decision for insane guidelines, need to think the past. what I'm trying to say is that the thing has never been considered in the past of osu!mania history since the communities are satisfied about the freedom of pattern choices. And yeah still not really have a negative impact because It's preferentially judged by BNs in the process of the ranked. so I wonder it should be on here.
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion. anyways, all the rest are fine to me. good work!
You could omit the second last jump as single and still ending the Jumptrill with triples, though. The pattern itself is fine but as far as I can see this kind of patterning are abused to pump up SRs which is not very good either. And speaking of Jumptrill variation, 90% Jumptrills I see up until now are full jumptrill ended with triples so I guess this guideline actually enforces Variation (?) Yea it wasn't a big deal but it may improve a map presentation quite a bit.

If It causes a potential point of making a mindblock, It does not have to be defined exactly as what I mentioned eariler because judgements about reasonable points are performed by BNs. but If It's included only that meaning what you said, I agree. It's yeah make sense. but well, perhaps because of the difference in the interpretation of the sentences. so yeah in case
Tailsdk

MEGAtive wrote:

Honestly I never see an "Insane" map using chords mid-1/8 stream in ranked lul, even when the 1/8 streams are in roll. But my thought lies within the "Using a chord at the beginning or end of a stream is fine". You didn't specify what chord are acceptable for the stream opening and ending. Using triples at the start would made stuff feels awkward while using triples at the ending is pretty hard to execute. Or heck, you can still use quads for the opening and ending (which would be the worst case scenario but I think people aren't that dumb).

Yea, just define what chord are acceptable for the opening and ending portion of the stream.
I think just talking about insane as 1 difficulty can be tough since a 4.8 star is still an insane difficulty. I personally think it should be split up into a higher insane and lower insane araound 4.4 or 4.5 since its a pretty big gap in between
MEGAtive

tailsdk wrote:

I think just talking about insane as 1 difficulty can be tough since a 4.8 star is still an insane difficulty. I personally think it should be split up into a higher insane and lower insane araound 4.4 or 4.5 since its a pretty big gap in between
I think since they try to make things very friendly with the Normal and Hard as lowest difficulty, this is probably aimed as a Lower Insane.
Tailsdk

MEGAtive wrote:

tailsdk wrote:

I think just talking about insane as 1 difficulty can be tough since a 4.8 star is still an insane difficulty. I personally think it should be split up into a higher insane and lower insane araound 4.4 or 4.5 since its a pretty big gap in between
I think since they try to make things very friendly with the Normal and Hard as lowest difficulty, this is probably aimed as a Lower Insane.
Yeah i agree its aimed at a lower insane but there should be something mentioning that
Kuo Kyoka
Quote: tailsdk
To be honest it's quite useless for being so, not to mention the SR system is broken and pushing a rule over that is completely absurd, and yes, Hard can be count as easier Insane already, and it's depending in the song with the top diff's patterning in thus to compares the amount of notes using between diffs is reasonable or not for the spread itself.
The terms of Light/Easier diff of the main diff with the same icon would only make senses whenever it does need a diff between it to fulfill the spread
Example: Normal / Hard / Light Insane / Insane / Extra (1,94* / 3,21* / 5,1* / 5,07* / 5,87* ) - And remember that SR isn't matter
Or else wouldn't make it on the right term
Bad example: Normal / Hard / Light Insane (1,78* / 2,9* / 3,82*) and meanwhile why Insane is the only diff have the light name while the other didn't? I remember there was once time people using the "+" term for diffname too in the same case and ended up have to DQ to remove that because obliviously it only have one diff on the same icon.
TLDR: using chord or not is depending on how you control your spread, and you got the point of "harder" insane and "light" extra shouldn't be included, but as MEGAtive said, I also don't see any one in the ranked map done that before (Or I did, maybe is Identity Part 3), but in that case, it's more on "patterning and BPM" instead, and since hard isn't even possible for 1/8 (for example: 180 tempo), adding chord between 1/8 on insane will make you needs to have 2 Insane diffs to fulfill that anyway.

Difficulty Specific
- Insane Guidelines
Using jump trills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. Unless a beatmap uses jacks frequently or other complex patterns frequently, this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the mini jack.

Why?
From then till now I have no problems in trying it and yet I saw most to everyone can do it perfectly to frequently in mapping.
Not only because it's now common that makes everyone can stick it with it in every maps but also for some reasons
But first, jumptrill with hand
[12] [34] [123]
[12] [34] [124]
[13] [24] [123]
[13] [24] [124]
[14] [23] [123]
[14] [23] [124]
Thus the opposites
Not to mention other possibilities as
[12] [24] [134]
[12] [23] [134]
...
And don't forget, 4K is not the only keymode have jumptrill

And why you need an extra note?
First in musical logic, if the bass continuously and have no changes in the volume, you can stick with 2 notes jumptrills for challenge and specific the difficulty of the map, and second is the cymbal after it, and yes it's common in most songs, making it 2 notes and classify it being the same with the bass/snare next to it is quite absurd because, kick/snare already 2 notes while cymbal + kick/snare should have higher amount of notes, when normal kick/snare regularly with jumptrill of 2 notes.
I would say it's more of the song itself, if it sounds lighter and you put the same jumptrill wouldn't make senses, meanwhile if its building up stronger and you delete a note before it would make any senses either, it lost the purpose of it, and thus, for consists between parts with that same kind of sounds. However, it's being more on the mapper's judgment of his/her's map as well, restricting something that already happens over the years would be pretty absurd since literally nobody to a real small amount of people did complains to it, over than that, I have never seen other having trauma from passing it during qualified section and yet I user it pretty common, even [12] [34] [1234] (so does 7K).
Mapping it in a freedom way, let the mapper choose what is the best for the map, but yet needs to be reasoning for it, as I mentioned above, so this guideline is quite useless imo.

And, I think I will post some opinions as well when I got the time
MEGAtive

Kuo Kyoka wrote:

Why?
From then till now I have no problems in trying it and yet I saw most to everyone can do it perfectly to frequently in mapping.
Not only because it's now common that makes everyone can stick it with it in every maps but also for some reasons
But first, jumptrill with hand
[12] [34] [123]
[12] [34] [124]
[13] [24] [123]
[13] [24] [124]
[14] [23] [123]
[14] [23] [124]
Thus the opposites
Not to mention other possibilities as
[12] [24] [134]
[12] [23] [134]
...
And don't forget, 4K is not the only keymode have jumptrill

And why you need an extra note?
First in musical logic, if the bass continuously and have no changes in the volume, you can stick with 2 notes jumptrills for challenge and specific the difficulty of the map, and second is the cymbal after it, and yes it's common in most songs, making it 2 notes and classify it being the same with the bass/snare next to it is quite absurd because, kick/snare already 2 notes while cymbal + kick/snare should have higher amount of notes, when normal kick/snare regularly with jumptrill of 2 notes.
I would say it's more of the song itself, if it sounds lighter and you put the same jumptrill wouldn't make senses, meanwhile if its building up stronger and you delete a note before it would make any senses either, it lost the purpose of it, and thus, for consists between parts with that same kind of sounds. However, it's being more on the mapper's judgment of his/her's map as well, restricting something that already happens over the years would be pretty absurd since literally nobody to a real small amount of people did complains to it, over than that, I have never seen other having trauma from passing it during qualified section and yet I user it pretty common, even [12] [34] [1234] (so does 7K).
Mapping it in a freedom way, let the mapper choose what is the best for the map, but yet needs to be reasoning for it, as I mentioned above, so this guideline is quite useless imo.

And, I think I will post some opinions as well when I got the time
Well, it is still a guideline so it may be broken on practice. But speaking of freedom of choosing a pattern, most people only do (12)(34)(124) or (34)(12)(134) because of how exploitable it is for SR hence seldomly using other variation you just wrote. Also (12)(24)(124) is already a chordglut, not jumptrill anymore lul.

And yea the wording is kind of generalizing all the keymodes here, as higher keymodes tend to have these kind of patterns but not have them minijacked. I think it should be stated that this guideline only considers 4K since it's a pretty common keymode.
Kawawa
I think It's pointless to think of the possibility of being exploited in relation to that part. Yeah It's impact for SR, but a little.
so It does not increase that absolutely. As we know For 4K, determining the SR is depends on how long that trill lasts.
And about the jump between the trills is, It may be very uncomfortable according to the bpm, so It is necessary to know whether the chart has reached reasonably about that. but the jump at the end is actually works as an extra-code for the last part for highlight.
so yeah, communities are using it frequently but nevertheless no complaints. because they are mostly analogous in the way to reaching freedom of the pattern choices and reasonable points. so as I said, so for apply the guidelines reasonably It would be great when the mapsets have the two insane diff(so for lower insane diff). 4K is actually limited to songs that can reach 'EX' icon. so most of their last level are mapped to Insane diff. so It's frequently see the 4k sets have 2-3 Insane spread. therefore If it is exist, It can maintain the same way as the past for freedom of the pattern choices and provides a reasonable technique spread between two identical icons.
Topic Starter
Feerum
Much feedback till now, makes me happy to see this.
I gonna partially reply to some points and later to more!

First of all i want to mention that all rules and guidelines use as BPM 180. It seems some have overread this because they bring up different BPM/Songs as argument.

Most of Guidelines which would limit songs too much are exactly for this in Guidelines. We are fully aware that some Guidelines can get broken because a song simply calls for it!

tailsdk wrote:

I feel like the long term SV for expert difficulties could be a bit bigger imo, but i guess its just a guideline so i dont mind it.
First we wanted to make it a wider range, but we realized really fast that going too high/too low is not a good idea.
Let's take a player who plays on 24 Scroll speed, 1.1 would make it 26 over a longer section. This is really a noticeable and even when these two seem to not affect it much, i have to confirm it really does because i play on 24 and really have problems on 26.
However, it is indeed just a guideline because not everyone plays on 24. Some play the game faster/slower. Also a song might call for even more/less so we don't want to limit mapper too much.


UndeadCapulet wrote:

std person here, just popping in to request y'all try to stick to glossary terms being singular instead of plural, for consistency w/ the other sections of the rc. ty~
Thanks! We will look at it as soon the week is over and we going to look over it again!

About using jump trills that lead to a hand:
I saw some brought up as argument older maps and that this was done already for a long time. Please let not start to take old maps as an example because really a lot of bad are far behind the mapping standard we hold up today. In the past random jacks and overall uncomfortable pattern were pretty common.
With this Guideline we want to avoid having pattern like this:

Many people miss on these pattern, and also the unnecessary mini-jack (to see on the screen on column 4) is there for no reason. Minijacks should at least have a reasoning when used, these are just very random placed and cause in an unnecessary difficult "spike". I read that some used emphasize as a argument and i have to contradict this. They emphasize absolute nothing. The hand is there to add a emphasis into the pattern, not the minijack.

However, please take into account that this is a Guideline. Especially on lower BPM such pattern can be nice to play, while they should really be completely avoided on higher BPM.

------------------------------------

Another thing i need to mention is: Please stop taking SR into account for this Ranking Criteria. It is true we used "SR" as a measure of difficulty in the past simply because it was worded like this in the old Ranking Criteria.
With the new Ranking Criteria we want to get rid all of SR-Related Rules and Guidelines (And they will be removed from the General Ranking Criteria as soon this draft is finalized)
A low BPM E/E/N/N spread can be treated as E/N/H/I, only by used pattern.
The meaning behind the difficult-specific Rules and Guidelines is to set a line when does a Normal count as Normal, when does a Hard count as Hard etc.

Shoegazer wrote:

For instance, there was a discussion on whether dump charting/mapping should be permitted, but there are several rules that go against this (e.g. the general LN length guideline and how each note must correlate to specific sounds). I'm personally ambivalent on the idea of allowing dumps, but I know that a fair section of the community is quite accepting of dump charting.
Yes, i know. Dumps were a topic like a half year ago, and it's really not completely gone. We simply reached a dead end in the discussion that's why we put it on ice for now to push at least the normal Ranking Criteria. (will reply to more of your points later!)

Kuo Kyoka wrote:

I remember there was once time people using the "+" term for diffname too in the same case and ended up have to DQ to remove that because obliviously it only have one diff on the same icon.
We removed the "+" now already some years ago. But the reasoning was not because of some diff icon or anything else. "+" is just an extremly bad way to call a diff. What does it mean? What is a "Hard+"? Is it a Hard? Is it a Insane? It's better to use something like "Light Insane" because it explains the difficulty better. I think it was Loctav back then who wanted to have it removed so we just stick to it. But it really changed to the better with not having it there anymore.

Alright, that's all for now. We will continue obverse this and reply to feedback as soon as we can. I also will reply to more on a later time!
MEGAtive

Kawawa wrote:

And about the jump between the trills is, It may be very uncomfortable according to the bpm, so It is necessary to know whether the chart has reached reasonably about that. but the jump at the end is actually works as an extra-code for the last part for highlight.
so yeah, communities are using it frequently but nevertheless no complaints. because they are mostly analogous in the way to reaching freedom of the pattern choices and reasonable points. so as I said, so for apply the guidelines reasonably It would be great when the mapsets have the two insane diff(so for lower insane diff). 4K is actually limited to songs that can reach 'EX' icon. so most of their last level are mapped to Insane diff. so It's frequently see the 4k sets have 2-3 Insane spread.
Yea 4K maps mostly barred within I Icon due to the fact that SR only counts density of the notes. But at least they denote the difficulty as "Extra" "Expert" etc. even though they are I Icon, which is the most important thing on determining what difficulty it is (Even my Expert are I icon, Insane are H icon, Hard are also H icon so this thing should work for the diffname instead of the icon). As far as I can see, most 4K maps fell to this category with Insane and Expert both rated as I Icon. And I think this rules/guidelines works to the difficulty name instead of the difficulty icons so "Expert"/"Extra" should abide to the "Expert" rules/guideline, "Insane" following the one for "Insane", etc.

So I think it doesn't need to be specific for which kind of Insane, and just let your workflow justify the pattern. But again, this is only a guideline which can be broken at any time.

This is kind of rant so do not comment on this, okay? Good.
Yea, people didn't complain about it much because they already used to it. Not that this is a bad practice, but at least do things differently and don't do the same, exact, pattern, again, and again, on, every, maps, ffs.


Also I think a musically appropriate dump should be fine since some simplification of a pattern like 1/8 to 1/6 doesn't really make sense either
Ryu Sei
Slider Velocity to alter the scrolling speed (not to normalize them) for all difficulties should be in guidelines, not rules. (this should apply even to Easy diff.)

As we know, the difficulty of players transitioning from easier difficulty to harder difficulty is the existence of what we call "Slider Velocity" or speed gimmicks. It would also increases the amount of possiblities can be made in a map.

However, the intensity of the Slider Velocity must be less dense for easier difficulty.
For example, you don't put random warp gimmicks/hard stutters to easier difficulty, unless it's very appropiate.

This is, also need to consider the key amount, so the intensity of Slider Velocity gimmicks should be linear to Star Rating and key amount.

Just my two cents.
abraker

Feerum wrote:

Another thing i need to mention is: Please stop taking SR into account for this Ranking Criteria. It is true we used "SR" as a measure of difficulty in the past simply because it was worded like this in the old Ranking Criteria.
With the new Ranking Criteria we want to get rid all of SR-Related Rules and Guidelines (And they will be removed from the General Ranking Criteria as soon this draft is finalized)
A low BPM E/E/N/N spread can be treated as E/N/H/I, only by used pattern.
The meaning behind the difficult-specific Rules and Guidelines is to set a line when does a Normal count as Normal, when does a Hard count as Hard etc.
Since this is not following SR, this raises a question. There isn't anything in the proposed ranking criteria that establishes what makes easy easier than normal, what makes normal is easier than hard, and so on. The proposed currently acts as categorical checklists will a lot of room for overlap. What prevents mappers from labeling the difficulties arbitrarily and passing them off while technically satisfying the criteria for the difficulty labeled?
MEGAtive

abraker wrote:

Since this is not following SR, this raises a question. There isn't anything in the proposed ranking criteria that establishes what makes easy easier than normal, what makes normal is easier than hard, and so on. The proposed currently acts as categorical checklists will a lot of room for overlap. What prevents mappers from labeling the difficulties arbitrarily and passing them off while technically satisfying the criteria for the difficulty labeled?
I believe Easy-Normal-Hard progression is a common sense that need no further breakdown. Patterns used in these diffs are pretty basic. They only need a pattern/rhythmical limitation to shape the structure up.

What needs to be breakdowned is Insane-Expert as these two in execution may intertwined with each other. As defining difficulty may be subjective and each people skillsets are different which makes some people believe the Expert felt easier than Insane.
lenpai
Expanding on abraker's concerns but with regards to duration based spread rules. If I have a severely underrated 4.8* chart being pushed as a single diff for 4:15, would it be considered an insane or an expert? Where do you draw the line? Should the QAT be consulted with these things? The same could be said for 3:30 H single H diffs that may be underrated. If these said underrated diffs would be subject to QAT rulings, would overrated charts be treated in the same manner?

EDIT: I know I shouldn't be mentioning SR but the point still stands on defining what should set the difference between Hards and Insanes / Insanes and Experts. The purpose is to avoid potentially frustrating DQs over single diff maps over a hidden rule of some sorts.
Ryu Sei

MEGAtive wrote:

I believe Easy-Normal-Hard progression is a common sense that need no further breakdown. Patterns used in these diffs are pretty basic. They only need a pattern/rhythmical limitation to shape the structure up.

What needs to be breakdowned is Insane-Expert as these two in execution may intertwined with each other. As defining difficulty may be subjective and each people skillsets are different which makes some people believe the Expert felt easier than Insane.
Considering patterns and notes density too, it is far more easy to differentiate Easy-Normal-Hard rather than Insane/Expert maps.

Lenfried- wrote:

If I have a severely underrated 4.8* chart being pushed as a single diff for 4:15, would it be considered an insane or an expert? Where do you draw the line? Should the QAT be consulted with these things? The same could be said for 3:30 H single H diffs that may be underrated. If these said underrated diffs would be subject to QAT rulings, would overrated charts be treated in the same manner?
In my opinion, it should be consulted with QAT members, or together with community.

The main problem is one: how does one define Insane/Expert?

The main difference is the note density and pattern complexity/difficulty. Still the definition of Insane/Expert maps should be discussed further with moderators and experienced players. And, yes, despite the same note count, patterns should be taken look at. However, quoting MEGAtive that every players have different skill sets and experience, one can look a pattern as "slightly hard" while other could look at it as "piece of cake".


One of severe case is "swingy" patterns, which involves "rainbow" snapping (combination between general 1/4~1/16 snap and triplets). I already experimented with some maps, and mostly (in my test) "Star Rating" doesn't always reflect the actual difficulty of a map.

That's why discussing about the difficulty definition in a map is important.

Another example is (as MEGAtive said after discussing privately with me), a 10 notes/sec double trills and double-jacks (or even one-handed jacks) has entirely different difficulty. Though, on slower density, 2 notes/sec double trills and double-jacks has slight (or even no distinguish) difference on difficulty.

From what am I thinking, underrated and overrated charts should be treated evenly; look through the patterns, analyze it, and check playability difficulty. The most concerning problem (I think) is "PP maps".
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