std person here, just popping in to request y'all try to stick to glossary terms being singular instead of plural, for consistency w/ the other sections of the rc. ty~
5 consecutive 1/4 notes
Arzenvald wrote:
5 consecutive 1/4 notes
Is this mean we can put 5 1/4 on faster bpm song? which certainly not cool, Or is there any certain bpm threshold for this?
yea, im agree with kawawaKawawa wrote:
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion.
Beatmaps can only use 4 to 9 keys. Anything else is not properly supported.
Long notes that are held simultaneously must be released at the same time. Long notes with multiple release timings require coordination that players of this level cannot reasonably handle.
Split jumptrill: A jumptrill which uses both hands at the same time to perform correctly - i.e two one-handed trills.
Every note should correlate to a sound present in the music.
Exceptions in favor of simplification should be made when following the music completely accurately...
would be unreasonable to play with full accuracy.
would be effectively represented with a consistent, predictable snap
would cause an inappropriate difficulty spike.
Long notes should not have release timings that use different timing snaps. For example, long note releases should not have a 1/3 snap on the end of it and a 1/4 snap at the end of another.
If Normal is the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set, it has to abide by these additional rules:
Consecutive 1/4 snaps may only be two notes long. More dense rhythms are not appropriate for the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set.
Jack usage is discouraged. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level. Minijacks with ample rest time in between may be acceptable.
If Hard is the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set, it has to abide by these additional guidelines:
Chords within streams are discouraged. The density of these patterns is often too difficult for players of this skill level, especially when used on the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set. However, using a chord at the beginning/end of a stream is fine.
Avoid 1/8 streams lasting longer than 4 beats. Streams of this type of snap are hard to execute and should only be used if the song warrants it.
Using jump trills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. Unless a beatmap uses jacks frequently or other complex patterns frequently, this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the mini jack.
Avoid more than 5 consecutive split jump trills. These are more physically exhausting than other patterns of similar density.
Kawawa wrote:
umm I know It's for guidelines but here something weird a bit.
If we restrict it, all the jump trills will have the same type to avoid a jack. and especially for 4K, the limit of SR is depends on the BPM. so most of them are ended as Insane difficulty. so most 4K mapsets will be same place on the ground If we mind it. so yeah It will make a huge change in the future. so before making the final decision for insane guidelines, need to think the past. what I'm trying to say is that the thing has never been considered in the past of osu!mania history since the communities are satisfied about the freedom of pattern choices. And yeah still not really have a negative impact because It's preferentially judged by BNs in the process of the ranked. so I wonder it should be on here.
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion.
anyways, all the rest are fine to me. good work!
This is also my concern about this rule as gallops doesn't simplify a triplets. But I also thought that if Normal are using 1/4s triplets, wouldn't it be similar to Hard?Shoegazer wrote:
This is extremely important (and I'm not sure if this is overlooked), but consecutive 1/4 snaps should be three notes long at least. In a map with mostly 1/2 rhythms, a 1/4 gallop (2 consecutive 1/4s) requires omitting a potential 1/2 note, which would cause timing difficulties (especially for new players) and major issues if you were to layer a certain sound consistently.
MEGAtive wrote:
Regarding JumptrillYou could omit the second last jump as single and still ending the Jumptrill with triples, though. The pattern itself is fine but as far as I can see this kind of patterning are abused to pump up SRs which is not very good either. And speaking of Jumptrill variation, 90% Jumptrills I see up until now are full jumptrill ended with triples so I guess this guideline actually enforces Variation (?) Yea it wasn't a big deal but it may improve a map presentation quite a bit.Kawawa wrote:
umm I know It's for guidelines but here something weird a bit.
If we restrict it, all the jump trills will have the same type to avoid a jack. and especially for 4K, the limit of SR is depends on the BPM. so most of them are ended as Insane difficulty. so most 4K mapsets will be same place on the ground If we mind it. so yeah It will make a huge change in the future. so before making the final decision for insane guidelines, need to think the past. what I'm trying to say is that the thing has never been considered in the past of osu!mania history since the communities are satisfied about the freedom of pattern choices. And yeah still not really have a negative impact because It's preferentially judged by BNs in the process of the ranked. so I wonder it should be on here.
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion. anyways, all the rest are fine to me. good work!
If It causes a potential point of making a mindblock, It does not have to be defined exactly as what I mentioned eariler because judgements about reasonable points are performed by BNs. but If It's included only that meaning what you said, I agree. It's yeah make sense. but well, perhaps because of the difference in the interpretation of the sentences. so yeah in case
MEGAtive wrote:
Insane Guideline: Avoid using chords in 1/8 streams.Honestly I never see an "Insane" map using chords mid-1/8 stream in ranked lul, even when the 1/8 streams are in roll. But my thought lies within the "Using a chord at the beginning or end of a stream is fine". You didn't specify what chord are acceptable for the stream opening and ending. Using triples at the start would made stuff feels awkward while using triples at the ending is pretty hard to execute. Or heck, you can still use quads for the opening and ending (which would be the worst case scenario but I think people aren't that dumb).
Yea, just define what chord are acceptable for the opening and ending portion of the stream.
tailsdk wrote:
I think just talking about insane as 1 difficulty can be tough since a 4.8 star is still an insane difficulty. I personally think it should be split up into a higher insane and lower insane araound 4.4 or 4.5 since its a pretty big gap in between
MEGAtive wrote:
tailsdk wrote:
I think just talking about insane as 1 difficulty can be tough since a 4.8 star is still an insane difficulty. I personally think it should be split up into a higher insane and lower insane araound 4.4 or 4.5 since its a pretty big gap in between
I think since they try to make things very friendly with the Normal and Hard as lowest difficulty, this is probably aimed as a Lower Insane.
Kuo Kyoka wrote:
Why?
From then till now I have no problems in trying it and yet I saw most to everyone can do it perfectly to frequently in mapping.
Not only because it's now common that makes everyone can stick it with it in every maps but also for some reasons
But first, jumptrill with hand
[12] [34] [123]
[12] [34] [124]
[13] [24] [123]
[13] [24] [124]
[14] [23] [123]
[14] [23] [124]
Thus the opposites
Not to mention other possibilities as
[12] [24] [134]
[12] [23] [134]
...
And don't forget, 4K is not the only keymode have jumptrill
And why you need an extra note?
First in musical logic, if the bass continuously and have no changes in the volume, you can stick with 2 notes jumptrills for challenge and specific the difficulty of the map, and second is the cymbal after it, and yes it's common in most songs, making it 2 notes and classify it being the same with the bass/snare next to it is quite absurd because, kick/snare already 2 notes while cymbal + kick/snare should have higher amount of notes, when normal kick/snare regularly with jumptrill of 2 notes.
I would say it's more of the song itself, if it sounds lighter and you put the same jumptrill wouldn't make senses, meanwhile if its building up stronger and you delete a note before it would make any senses either, it lost the purpose of it, and thus, for consists between parts with that same kind of sounds. However, it's being more on the mapper's judgment of his/her's map as well, restricting something that already happens over the years would be pretty absurd since literally nobody to a real small amount of people did complains to it, over than that, I have never seen other having trauma from passing it during qualified section and yet I user it pretty common, even [12] [34] [1234] (so does 7K).
Mapping it in a freedom way, let the mapper choose what is the best for the map, but yet needs to be reasoning for it, as I mentioned above, so this guideline is quite useless imo.
And, I think I will post some opinions as well when I got the time
tailsdk wrote:
I feel like the long term SV for expert difficulties could be a bit bigger imo, but i guess its just a guideline so i dont mind it.
UndeadCapulet wrote:
std person here, just popping in to request y'all try to stick to glossary terms being singular instead of plural, for consistency w/ the other sections of the rc. ty~
Shoegazer wrote:
For instance, there was a discussion on whether dump charting/mapping should be permitted, but there are several rules that go against this (e.g. the general LN length guideline and how each note must correlate to specific sounds). I'm personally ambivalent on the idea of allowing dumps, but I know that a fair section of the community is quite accepting of dump charting.
Kuo Kyoka wrote:
I remember there was once time people using the "+" term for diffname too in the same case and ended up have to DQ to remove that because obliviously it only have one diff on the same icon.
Kawawa wrote:
And about the jump between the trills is, It may be very uncomfortable according to the bpm, so It is necessary to know whether the chart has reached reasonably about that. but the jump at the end is actually works as an extra-code for the last part for highlight.
so yeah, communities are using it frequently but nevertheless no complaints. because they are mostly analogous in the way to reaching freedom of the pattern choices and reasonable points. so as I said, so for apply the guidelines reasonably It would be great when the mapsets have the two insane diff(so for lower insane diff). 4K is actually limited to songs that can reach 'EX' icon. so most of their last level are mapped to Insane diff. so It's frequently see the 4k sets have 2-3 Insane spread.
Since this is not following SR, this raises a question. There isn't anything in the proposed ranking criteria that establishes what makes easy easier than normal, what makes normal is easier than hard, and so on. The proposed currently acts as categorical checklists will a lot of room for overlap. What prevents mappers from labeling the difficulties arbitrarily and passing them off while technically satisfying the criteria for the difficulty labeled?Feerum wrote:
Another thing i need to mention is: Please stop taking SR into account for this Ranking Criteria. It is true we used "SR" as a measure of difficulty in the past simply because it was worded like this in the old Ranking Criteria.
With the new Ranking Criteria we want to get rid all of SR-Related Rules and Guidelines (And they will be removed from the General Ranking Criteria as soon this draft is finalized)
A low BPM E/E/N/N spread can be treated as E/N/H/I, only by used pattern.
The meaning behind the difficult-specific Rules and Guidelines is to set a line when does a Normal count as Normal, when does a Hard count as Hard etc.
abraker wrote:
Since this is not following SR, this raises a question. There isn't anything in the proposed ranking criteria that establishes what makes easy easier than normal, what makes normal is easier than hard, and so on. The proposed currently acts as categorical checklists will a lot of room for overlap. What prevents mappers from labeling the difficulties arbitrarily and passing them off while technically satisfying the criteria for the difficulty labeled?
MEGAtive wrote:
I believe Easy-Normal-Hard progression is a common sense that need no further breakdown. Patterns used in these diffs are pretty basic. They only need a pattern/rhythmical limitation to shape the structure up.
What needs to be breakdowned is Insane-Expert as these two in execution may intertwined with each other. As defining difficulty may be subjective and each people skillsets are different which makes some people believe the Expert felt easier than Insane.
Lenfried- wrote:
If I have a severely underrated 4.8* chart being pushed as a single diff for 4:15, would it be considered an insane or an expert? Where do you draw the line? Should the QAT be consulted with these things? The same could be said for 3:30 H single H diffs that may be underrated. If these said underrated diffs would be subject to QAT rulings, would overrated charts be treated in the same manner?
Shoegazer wrote:
This is extremely important (and I'm not sure if this is overlooked), but consecutive 1/4 snaps should be three notes long at least. In a map with mostly 1/2 rhythms, a 1/4 gallop (2 consecutive 1/4s) requires omitting a potential 1/2 note, which would cause timing difficulties (especially for new players) and major issues if you were to layer a certain sound consistently.
Shoegazer wrote:
You should specify that you are referring to 1/4 jack usage. 1/2 jacks (90 BPM 1/4s in this example) are usually far more bearable to players who are just approaching Hard difficulties.
Kawawa wrote:
4K is actually limited to songs that can reach 'EX' icon. so most of their last level are mapped to Insane diff. so It's frequently see the 4k sets have 2-3 Insane spread. therefore If it is exist, It can maintain the same way as the past for freedom of the pattern choices and provides a reasonable technique spread between two identical icons.
Lenfried- wrote:
Expanding on abraker's concerns but with regards to duration based spread rules. If I have a severely underrated 4.8* chart being pushed as a single diff for 4:15, would it be considered an insane or an expert? Where do you draw the line? Should the QAT be consulted with these things? The same could be said for 3:30 H single H diffs that may be underrated. If these said underrated diffs would be subject to QAT rulings, would overrated charts be treated in the same manner?
EDIT: I know I shouldn't be mentioning SR but the point still stands on defining what should set the difference between Hards and Insanes / Insanes and Experts. The purpose is to avoid potentially frustrating DQs over single diff maps over a hidden rule of some sorts.
Shoegazer wrote:
- "Difficulty spike" needs to be defined further. Are you referring to difficulty spikes in terms of density, or can it refer to difficulty spikes in timing difficulty? Maximally accurate guitar solos are notorious for being very difficult to time for KB play, and they would be considered "spiky" despite not being too much harder than a straight 1/4 or a 1/6 stream.
adding up to this quote-MysticEyes wrote:
Edit: one more thing, I feel like the rules/guidelines are a little too 4k-centric as of now (for instance the jumptrill into-hand guideline), I really think things should be revised so that higher keymodes are taken into consideration here.
Lenfried- wrote:
i mentioned this in the previous thread and ill mention this again. Some terminologies shouldn't be thrown around just because people can and this RC draft is supporting that. Reading a mod that would say something like "a handstream would be nice here" for a 7k chart is just wrong.
DDMythical wrote:
rules and svSlider velocity changes that alter the scrolling speed of the map are disallowed. An exception to this rule would be creating slider velocity changes to unify the scroll speed in BPM-variable maps. Scroll normalization is mandatory and must be done in maps with variable BPM.
would https://osu.ppy.sh/s/704987 be regarded as an exception to this rule? This should not be a rule; it should be a guideline, and, if that, this presumes a congruency between physical difficulty (what star rating assesses, and determines whether the difficulty is an easy/normal/whatever) and visual/mental difficulty, with regards to svs. There is no major correlation between these two factors. A chart that is harder physically does not mean it is better suited for harsher svs than a chart physically lighter. In fact, it's the complete opposite. Looking at some of the most popular harsh sv charts in the game (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/572000 - Coinage
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/723624 - Back Of The Yards
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/108708 - dEKA
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/591171 - Groundhog
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/415946 - Chloroplast Skin
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/673208 - Cycles)
you can see that most, if not all of them, fall around a low difficulty range relative to the ability necessary to learn the SVs. As such, no explicit rule should be included which dictates congruency between physical ability and SVs, I don't disagree with it being a guideline, but even-so, it's presented in a sense which implies that as your chart is harder physically, it becomes better to use harsher svs, when, in reality, it is the complete converse. this is harmful to new charters.
DDMythical wrote:
why is 180bpm picked as the standard for what measures are determined as too difficult for the player at any given level, if anything, pick 150 - it divides much better into certain bpms which are common at certain difficulty levels:
1/4 = 150
1/6 = 200
1/8 = 300
1/12 = 400
as opposed to:
1/4 = 180
1/6 = 270
1/8 = 360
1/12 = 540
which are significantly more illogical.
Noch Einen wrote:
I found some map were "breaking the guidelines" like Timing, hitsounding, offsets / BPM / snapping.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/189643 - dreamin' feat.Ryu☆ [2nd Kiai place as x1.05] (2014) (INFINITE)
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/113175 - Phantasmagoria (not quite same, yet similiar) [1st BPM place as half or 2nd BPM as double or reversed, idk which one] (2013) [All diff]
Noch Einen wrote:
Hitsounding
I'm certainly sure hitsound consistency is brought up by Protastic101 before his map got ranked Camellia - Exit This Earth's Atomosphere
Yet i found inconsistent hs on jioyi - cyanine Rivals_7's map [Ultimate] is like this at 03:02:161 (182161|3) -
and hs vol conflict between [Another] & the rest of those diff (at some part)i can't tell where it is, i lost my data
Snapping
There is 1 song has weird snapping (currently on pas ranked map) Mitsuyoshi Takenobu no Ani - Amphisbaena (i think this one is fine because minor problem, but i just pointed it out, so upcoming weird snap on other song would not be like this again)
Both ranked are using same pattern on 1 part (00:26:681 - which are late on vocal offsets, applies on 02:05:275 - too)
BPM / Offsets
Actually this is 1 of other big mistake on ranked map. Why do i say this? Because it has really early offset than precise location?
The song is Team Grimoire - Sheriruth. Try take a deep observation & listen carefully at 25% & 1/16 snapping from the whole diff / early (regardless of what diff they are, those are same). Still didn't believe it? try at 00:44:345 - and go 1/16 further & listen at 25%
Two notes cannot be placed in a single column at the same timestampWhich makes me wonder: Should 1ms jacks be rankable? 10ms?
Every note should correlate to a sound present in the music. This should be a distinct sound, but can also coherently represent a continuous sound with an indistinguishable start or end.Might be picky on the wording, but it feels like this is saying only one note can be allocated for each "sound". "Sound" ofc is rather abstract, but it's easy to misinterpret that to be notes in the actual music as well. So if you have a wub, for example, it would be easy to misinterpret, accidentally or otherwise, that you can't have a burst of notes representing that, and instead need to use a single LN instead. I suggest using "noise" instead of "sound" since it relates more to how something actually sounds instead of the objectified concept of some kind of sound.