I would be in favor of replacing the rule with, "Please format the name as the artist does, Check wikipedia, other maps or ask MAT/BAT"

"check album covers"

what happens when they differ?

in common, i would like to check that via youtube, wiki, album cover or other ranked-maps. It's well knwon that is weird to read eastern names with Surname->Given name order. So i suppose keep it natural is okay

lastname, firstname is not strange at all in any language.

If an author artist either orders, keep the consistent one.
If there are no maps of that artist, keep the eastern name.

I am for the rulings to enforce a certain format.

Would it not make more sense to generalise a single ruling of having the artist being listed in the 'western' format of [First name] [Surname] to ensure consistency across the board?

Sure enough it is enforcing a conformity which other cultures may find to be off-putting but overall this would help to cancel out any confusion for current and new beatmap creators as to how they should have to worry about if they have the artist name in the correct form.

This would force a clear understanding that the concept of artist tag should be in the English style instead of the localised format.

Side note:
In reference to Hatsune Miku; 'her' voice is officially stated to be as aforementioned in the first name, last name English format as stated via Crypton Future Media here who are the proprietor of vocaloid software.

ampzz wrote:

Side note:
In reference to Hatsune Miku; 'her' voice is officially stated to be as aforementioned in the first name, last name English format as stated via Crypton Future Media here who are the proprietor of vocaloid software.

try that one again please. I'm lost in bad grammar and japanese links.

Two unnecessary words in it with 'as stated' being a random repeat done at about 3am, can you seriously blame me for that?

Simplified version if it was too hard to understand in regards to the Hatsune Miku issue:

Crypton Future Media, the proprietor/official licensee of 'her' software, have the name officially stated as Hatsune Miku in a first to last name basis; with the source I am utilising for this claim to be their online shop. This details product information for the vocaloid software and even Wikipedia (who always rearrange into a standard English format) have it listed as such.

Sources:
Crypton Future Media - http://www.crypton.co.jp/mp/do/prod?id=29880
Product brochure - http://www.crypton.co.jp/download/pdf/info_miku_e.pdf
Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsune_Miku

The only inconsistency that Wikipedia had was in the image tag for the software box, this should have read as; Hatsune_miku_cover.jpg instead.

so kagamine rin and kagamine len have the same first name?

ziin wrote:

so kagamine rin and kagamine len have the same first name?

"kagamine" is Surname of course, same as all other asians.

Now i think Surname->Given name would be a good choice because somebody told me that "ah...Rie kugimiya is heard weird if you're a japanese.

So, with another reason that Asians have no middle name, i would like to write artists' names as Surname,Given name as well.

We should go for the "correct" alternative presented in covers.
If there are two covers names for an artist, then use the more famous one. Though if they're equally used, then choose the more consistent one.
And this should cover all cases.

Scorpiour wrote:

ziin wrote:

so kagamine rin and kagamine len have the same first name?

"kagamine" is Surname of course, same as all other asians.

Now i think Surname->Given name would be a good choice because somebody told me that "ah...Rie kugimiya is heard weird if you're a japanese.

So, with another reason that Asians have no middle name, i would like to write artists' names as Surname,Given name as well.

Ampzz is saying that Hatsune is first name, Miku is last name.

ziin wrote:

Ampzz is saying that Hatsune is first name, Miku is last name.

lol

Hatsune = 初音 as surname
&
Miku = 未来 (or ミク)as given name

it could be easily to know via google.....

Scorpiour wrote:

ziin wrote:

Ampzz is saying that Hatsune is first name, Miku is last name.

lol

Hatsune = 初音 as surname
&
Miku = 未来 (or ミク)as given name

it could be easily to know via google.....

This. It's also easy to know by knowing that in Japanese fiction, surnames are typically written in kanji while first names are typically written in katakana, and that is the case here. Also, just to be clear, those pages are referring to the product "Hatsune Miku", not the persona Hatsune Miku. Product names are treated differently than personas and people. It's wonderful, ain't it?

EDIT: My stance on the rule is, "Who cares?" Just go with what makes the most sense for that artist.

Ekaru wrote:

Also, just to be clear, those pages are referring to the product "Hatsune Miku", not the persona Hatsune Miku. Product names are treated differently than personas and people. It's wonderful, ain't it?

EDIT: My stance on the rule is, "Who cares?" Just go with what makes the most sense for that artist.

This makes sense and is obscenely stupid.

I will only agree to 2 methods: Firstname [Middlename] Lastname or a transliteration of the name in the countries origin. When Japan switches the way they say names into a western style is when I will want Japanese artists to be listed that way.

This matters because of how osu sorts artists and how osu tags work.

I prefer obeying the countries origin.

not to the artist preference?

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

not to the artist preference?

Correct. The artist's preference can be very confusing, and I'm willing to bet they don't really care and the marketing department made the decision anyway.

So i hear it should always be last/family name first for asian artists unless they prefer to be called otherwise.

Is anyone ok with this?

No, but I'm probably just being stubborn.

I will only agree to 2 methods: Firstname [Middlename] Lastname or a transliteration of the name in the countries origin.

Sakura wrote:

So i hear it should always be last/family name first for asian artists unless they prefer to be called otherwise.

Is anyone ok with this?

How can we know their preference unless ask them directly?
We can only suppose it through Album cover or something else.

I prefer countries origin. Let's vote?

Go with name on album, if I released an album under the name Doe John thats the name I chose as an artist regardless of cultural influences.

This had been discussed for a long time and nothing was actually changed. But things ain't what they used to be. Let's discuss this once again.
I've been enforcing this rule upon many mappers but apparently it's quite confusing especially for western people, and honestly I think this rule makes no sense. Also I don't even know why this rule was constituted. Therefore I suggest removal of this rule, because:

1. Now that we have Artist Unicode, so we can respect country-origin without using "surname firstname" format.
2. Once osz2 comes out, we can change old ranked maps without a need to unrank.
3. Non-asian people are familiar with "firstname surname" format more than "surname firstname", because many public places such as Wikipedia, iTunes are using "firstname surname" format. And furthermore, that format isn't that strange for Japanese. You can tell just by looking at a lot of CD covers using it.
4. It's quite strange to use "surname firstname" just for eastern artists as we are all using "firstname surname" for the others. And what sense does it make..?

Sorry for my terrible English. And as I am Japanese, my opinions might be biased. Actually I have no idea about Chinese and Korean (or out of asia). Thus I hope to see some thoughts from you guys. (:

Melophobia wrote:

This had been discussed for a long time and nothing was actually changed. But things ain't what they used to be. Let's discuss this once again.
I've been enforcing this rule upon many mappers but apparently it's quite confusing especially for western people, and honestly I think this rule makes no sense. Also I don't even know why this rule was constituted. Therefore I suggest removal of this rule, because:

1. Now that we have Artist Unicode, so we can respect country-origin without using "surname firstname" format.
2. Once osz2 comes out, we can change old ranked maps without a need to unrank.
3. Non-asian people are familiar with "firstname surname" format more than "surname firstname", because many public places such as Wikipedia, iTunes are using "firstname surname" format. And furthermore, that format isn't that strange for Japanese. You can tell just by looking at a lot of CD covers using it.
4. It's quite strange to use "surname firstname" just for eastern artists as we are all using "firstname surname" for the others. And what sense does it make..?

Sorry for my terrible English. And as I am Japanese, my opinions might be biased. Actually I have no idea about Chinese and Korean (or out of asia). Thus I hope to see some thoughts from you guys. (:

The reason why people get troubled when using an eastern song is written in No.2

Melophobia wrote:

Non-asian people are familiar with "firstname surname" format more than "surname firstname", because many public places such as Wikipedia, iTunes are using "firstname surname" format. And furthermore, that format isn't that strange for Japanese. You can tell just by looking at a lot of CD covers using it.

When searching the info of artist name, people probably see the official website or public place first, then sometimes see "firstname surname" format in English.
We usually use "surname firstname" format, but in case we write our name in English(roma-ji), we follow "firstname surname" format.
That's why non-asian people get confused.

To be honest, I disagree with changing this rule.
In osu!, we have been following this rule for a long time, and "surname firstname" format is NATURAL for us.
What I hope is just to let people know how we follow which format, then which format should be used for the artist in osu!.
If many people know it, I'm sure the problem of setting metadata will decrease.

Okay posting this again since my original reply was deleted because of a bug (EDIT: seems to have bugged again... oh well), thanks to whyme for informing me and Pokie for saving it ^_^

I said something about this in another thread but I agree with Melo, the current rule doesn't make much sense to me and there are too many exceptions.

Suzully wrote:

Melophobia wrote:

Non-asian people are familiar with "firstname surname" format more than "surname firstname", because many public places such as Wikipedia, iTunes are using "firstname surname" format. And furthermore, that format isn't that strange for Japanese. You can tell just by looking at a lot of CD covers using it.

When searching the info of artist name, people probably see the official website or public place first, then sometimes see "firstname surname" format in English.
We usually use "surname firstname" format, but in case we write our name in English(roma-ji), we follow "firstname surname" format.
That's why non-asian people get confused..

Actually I think this is why the rule shouldn't be in place. If Japanese artists are romanising their names using firstname surname format then why should it be different on osu? There are lots of CDs that use the firstname surname format on the cover and if I buy something from itunes or elsewhere and the artist is listed as firstname lastname why should it be changed just here? If it's the official name the artist is using to sell music then that should be the name used, just like a stage name.

Suzully wrote:

To be honest, I disagree with changing this rule.
In osu!, we have been following this rule for a long time, and "surname firstname" format is NATURAL for us.
What I hope is just to let people know how we follow which format, then which format should be used for the artist in osu!.
If many people know it, I'm sure the problem of setting metadata will decrease.

I don't think this is true, just to take one example we have 10 maps ranked with the name Hideyuki Fukusawa, which is firstname lastname format, if we search all maps with this artist we find everyone is using this name except 1 map. If that map gets ranked as Fukusawa Hideyuki it will be the only one, and when you search "Hideyuki Fukusawa" in game you won't find the map that uses "Fukusawa Hideyuki". Common sense tells us that everyone knows him as Hideyuki Fukusawa, and in fact that's the romanised version the artist uses. Changing it to lastname firstname causes confusion imo. There are many other examples of this but I don't think it's necessary to list them all.

To use an example outside of Japan, let's take the Vietnamese artist Thu Minh. If we were to use this rule here the artist would become Minh Thu, but Minh Thu could be a completely different person so it wouldn't make sense. This is just one example where applying the rule to "Eastern Artists" makes things worse or creates more confusion. It's much simpler just to use the name the artist uses and everyone knows them by.

I'd also like to ask what exactly is the purpose of this rule? We have unicode now that can display the artists name in the original languages format and some of the artist changes are completely different to what both the artist uses and what previous ranked maps are using. I think the rule would probably be better as a guideline if you don't know the artists preference or just removed completely.

I sit better on Melo's side of things. Since we now have the option to enter the Unicode version of the artist, the native speakers can view the name the way it should be, and the romaji part can be left to the western standard considering the language. Even with the long-established nomenclature that we have in osu!, we still have constant confusion. This way makes sense for most parties, and it won't leave so much interpretation left to CD Covers and Wiki searches.

I agree with Melo's line of logic. Why should we use the "surname name" format, if for most of us a "name surname" format seems more convenient? Considering the implementation of the Unicode Artist and Title, I agree that this rule should be removed, as now I really can't see a valid reason to keep this format when many people have got actually used to the "name surname" format.

I don't think this needs to be talked about. Let mappers decide which side they want. (Although everyone will pretty much end up using [name surname] format) Honestly, I think this rule should be removed. The point is still there whether the surname or the first name comes first.

Well i dont think this rule's necessary anymore, my guess is that it existed to set some kind of standarization on eastern artist names back then so that it didnt like disorganized, tho no one actually followed it. Since it's a pretty old rule that has existed since before i even joined i'd rather like to hear from peppy or some older BAT members what their opinion on this rule at the current time is.

Personally I get confused now. I think we should be using one format for simplicity. It's very difficult to figure out the right way to pronounce a name if you don't know what are common names for the culture. Even if it is incorrect on the part of the cataloger, most English representations of japanese artists/names have first name as first.

That's just how I feel. I really don't know how important this is to the Japanese who play the game. I think their input would be more valuable. Is it worth the confusion and inconsistent variations in the system that will need to be fixed at some point?

For artists which have a preferred romanisation, use that. For all others, use Last, First. It sounds better when reading it.

peppy wrote:

It sounds better when reading it.

This makes sense. But I'd say no one has "preferred romanisations" because we are all using "firstname surname" by default whenever we romanize our name. It just causes further confusion I think. Also:

ziin wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

not to the artist preference?

Correct. The artist's preference can be very confusing, and I'm willing to bet they don't really care and the marketing department made the decision anyway.

Well.. frankly speaking, I don't want to see someone saying "it's fine according to their CD cover" when I suggest following this rule. :<

I did some research and it is for the most part proper to use surname first, then given name. Artists who distribute in places where the western format is used will often use the western format for their name. There is confusion as to whether the naming on an album is the proper recognized way of representing that artist. It really depends on what format the region you live in uses. It's not the concrete answer I was looking for though.

My thoughts:

The people who are willing to enforce this rule need to explain themselves more clearly. This will be easier if the rule was explained more clearly. It doesn't specify when it's appropriate to use surname first. I didn't know that the Chinese use surname first even more strictly than Japanese do. It would be nice if we had guidelines on naming conventions so that people can actually follow this rule and encourage others to do the same.

If I am going to enforce this rule, I want to know there isn't only two BATs following it. How often is this rule followed and what is the most reliable source to check for the proper naming convention. What about made up names? Can we use names from the credits of an anime as a valid source?

I thought about the idea of somehow being able to change the formatting through a setting, but it's probably not worth dividing the artist field into two parts and then figuring out how to make it compatible with existing beatmaps. It was only a thought.

'Eastern artists must be written in the proper 'surname firstname' format''' (e.g. Japanese/Chinese/Korean). For artists which have a preferred romanisation, use this one. If you're unsure of your artist's name, then check previously ranked maps, Google, Wikipedia, or ask a BAT/MAT for help.

Changed the current general rule to that. New sentences are bold.