jianzii wrote:

very specific scenarios.

This is the problem, peppy has some kind of map difficulty determining program that uses a revised version of AIMod, but nobody knows what this criteria is.

There's a ton of factors involved, everyone needs to realise this and stop thinking so narrow-minded about specific examples. I'll say it again, TON of factors. I merely vote "less combo" guy will get more, but if u wanna ask me what more is, it also depends on each of their current PP standings, more is probably 22 vs 20. You guys do know there's thresholds to how much PP you get for something right? And this isn't exactly limited by anything on the number of thresholds there can be, the system could be much more complex than you think.

And yeah I'm having trouble sleeping. Guess I should go try now.

reuben2011 wrote:

I have a TON of maps where I'll get very good accuracy (98-99%) and get one miss or a slider-break at approximately half-way through the song. And I'll repeatedly repeat that same process over and over again on the same map and it just frustrates me to no end that someone with a kagillion 100's and a miss later on the song easily out ranks me just because of how combo-scoring works. I was never a fan of combo-scoring and never will be (I've earned the nickname "Master of Misses" and have various miss-related memes in other rhythm gaming communities, lawl)

See the thing I hate about slider breaks is that they don't count them as misses, yet you break your combo. wtf is the point of that <.<

Well, anyway, just giving my insight on how I think this whole pp ranking works, there's probably going to be tons of threads similar to this one ending just as a ongoing debate about how it works, so I'm just about done with this. I'll rather play Osu.

I began to touch on this in my thread about mods; scoring based on combos is extremely disappointing. It's even more disappointing that it's caused us to end up needing multiple scoring statistics to gauge accomplishments. If scoring is based on accuracy, then it is very difficult for a player who habitually misses to successfully make a high score. The player who does not miss due to his ability to follow the rhythm more perfectly will be the player who wins out. Yes, it's possible to present a thousand scenarios where players fully combo a map with all fifties, but the fact is that it just means that the next better player will beat their score with minute effort.

Your accuracy, in the end, will be worse whether you miss a lot, or can't hit on time. It's a supreme number. Combos are icing on the cake. Long story short, focusing on combos with accuracy considered secondarily is redundant. The best method is usually the simplest method, and the simplest method here is to cut the combo out and focus on one number: the accuracy.

Having a single miss would be one thing, but getting 99% and many misses is worse than getting 96% and FC.

uljjang wrote:

Okay. But if both players aced hardest part of the song? but player "a" fc'ed with 96 %acc, and player "b" not fc (one random slider miss) with 99%acc. player "a" > player "b"? this is a shit.

You have some of the worst responses I have ever seen. If your going to try to judge of skill then how is accuracy only skill? You can't say that a play who never FC's a song but always gets 99% accuracy is better than a player who can FC any song with 95%.

Your type of desired system would be so easily farmed it's not even funny. Players could just 99% an entire song and then literally let a hard jump slide or even not even try it at all and rank higher than a player who could do that jump but maybe only get 98%.

Instead of calling a system shit maybe you should actually think of what you are saying first.

Aren't we forgetting that you need to play extremely well to maintain a 99% accuracy when you have many misses? A miss deducts from accuracy. Let's not paint this as though you could play with perfect accuracy but miss every other beat. It just doesn't really work that way, and if you can miss twenty times and still make 99% accuracy, then you must be playing a map with a lot of beats, and you obviously played really well to offset your mistakes. This doesn't mean you're doing great, however, because the guy who does it with 99% accuracy and no misses will still be better. This is why I say the combo bonus is redundant.

G0r wrote:

The best method is usually the simplest method, and the simplest method here is to cut the combo out and focus on one number: the accuracy.

The issue is that pp rank is only considered for ranks on maps under 1000 and in order to get a good rank on a popular map, it either requires an extremely high combo or fc. So someone who gets a single miss in the middle of the song while SS'ing the rest won't even have their score considered toward their pp ranking. Because of that, it seems to put the emphasis on fc'ing, no matter what.

Wishy22 wrote:

Having a single miss would be one thing, but getting 99% and many misses is worse than getting 96% and FC.

That's a bit subjective, I could see it either way.

JAKACHAN wrote:

uljjang wrote:

Okay. But if both players aced hardest part of the song? but player "a" fc'ed with 96 %acc, and player "b" not fc (one random slider miss) with 99%acc. player "a" > player "b"? this is a shit.

You have some of the worst responses I have ever seen. If your going to try to judge of skill then how is accuracy only skill? You can't say that a play who never FC's a song but always gets 99% accuracy is better than a player who can FC any song with 95%.

Your type of desired system would be so easily farmed it's not even funny. Players could just 99% an entire song and then literally let a hard jump slide or even not even try it at all and rank higher than a player who could do that jump but maybe only get 98%.

Instead of calling a system shit maybe you should actually think of what you are saying first.

The below pretty much sums up what I was going to say:

G0r wrote:

Aren't we forgetting that you need to play extremely well to maintain a 99% accuracy when you have many misses? A miss deducts from accuracy. Let's not paint this as though you could play with perfect accuracy but miss every other beat. It just doesn't really work that way, and if you can miss twenty times and still make 99% accuracy, then you must be playing a map with a lot of beats, and you obviously played really well to offset your mistakes. This doesn't mean you're doing great, however, because the guy who does it with 99% accuracy and no misses will still be better. This is why I say the combo bonus is redundant.

@JAKACHAN: Remember, that 100's give 1/3 the accuracy addition compared to 300's, 50's give 1/6, and misses give 0. Missing intentionally is going to cause your accuracy to go down, it's in one's best interest to at least attempt to hit every note.

reuben2011 wrote:

@JAKACHAN: Remember, that 100's give 1/3 the accuracy addition compared to 300's, 50's give 1/6, and misses give 0. Missing intentionally is going to cause your accuracy to go down, it's in one's best interest to at least attempt to hit every note.

That wasn't my point. My point was that you can't call the system shit just because it doesn't rely 100% on accuracy. I was explaining how if it did rely 100% on accuracy then if you accidentally miss a single circle but FC the rest of the song you would end up getting a better score than someone who FC'd the entire song but didn't get above 98% which would be stupid.

JAKACHAN wrote:

reuben2011 wrote:

My point was that you can't call the system shit just because it doesn't rely 100% on accuracy. I was explaining how if it did rely 100% on accuracy then if you accidentally miss a single circle but FC the rest of the song you would end up getting a better score than someone who FC'd the entire song but didn't get above 98% which would be stupid.

I think it's debatable that this would be stupid... In fact, this debate is about whether or not this would be stupid. You are valuing the person's combo over their accuracy. Personally I value a person's accuracy over their combo, because I see accuracy as being the hinge of a rhythm game, and I think it can stand alone without a modifier from combos, which depreciates its value.

RaneFire wrote:

Accuracy is rhythm. Player B had worse rhythm, he just managed to keep his combo.
Player A had better rhythm, but missed 1 note, probably due to his cursor position, not his rhythm.

Well having said that I'd vote player B for the OP. Since the end result scores are fairly close, there's obviously a weighting towards the score result, but it's probably less than linear, as opposed to being multiplied like the combo-scoring. And this is only to help determine PP anyway, player A still has a better result. PP =/= score.

And really guys use your heads, no player is going to achieve 99% on every map and break their combo halfway evrytim. Unless they don't care, so

yeah it's a rhythm game, but there' other aspects of this specefic game that people should consider than just how on beat you are. That way. imo, you can judge performance better.

You need to think about it, what is accuracy really? it's the time you simultaneous tap your keyboard/tablet at the moment of the beat in correct response, depending on how late or early you are, you get either 50/100/300

but then there's a game called Osu, that makes you apply youself to do extreme jumps, and super fast tapping(that acquires inhuman skills imo) see Renard/Cookiezi/white wolf

my point is, accuracy isn't all that, you still have to do those crazy jumps with speed to stay on rhythm in order to get good accuracy. its like cause and effect, and i think that's more important than accuracy. but in all fairness the more perfect you do those said things, the more score you should get

peppy actually has it set up right, cause i know i can beat a person by comboingmore wit 88 acc than a person who had 58 combo with 94%

dunku wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

Accuracy is rhythm. Player B had worse rhythm, he just managed to keep his combo.
Player A had better rhythm, but missed 1 note, probably due to his cursor position, not his rhythm.

Well having said that I'd vote player B for the OP. Since the end result scores are fairly close, there's obviously a weighting towards the score result, but it's probably less than linear, as opposed to being multiplied like the combo-scoring. And this is only to help determine PP anyway, player A still has a better result. PP =/= score.

And really guys use your heads, no player is going to achieve 99% on every map and break their combo halfway evrytim. Unless they don't care, so

yeah it's a rhythm game, but there' other aspects of this specefic game that people should consider than just how on beat you are. That way. imo, you can judge performance better.

You need to think about it, what is accuracy really? it's the time you simultaneous tap your keyboard/tablet at the moment of the beat in correct response, depending on how late or early you are, you get either 50/100/300

but then there's a game called Osu, that makes you apply youself to do extreme jumps, and super fast tapping(that acquires inhuman skills imo) see Renard/Cookiezi/white wolf
Renard
Renard
Renard

hahahahahahhahahahahaHAHAHAHHAHAHA

JAKACHAN wrote:

reuben2011 wrote:

@JAKACHAN: Remember, that 100's give 1/3 the accuracy addition compared to 300's, 50's give 1/6, and misses give 0. Missing intentionally is going to cause your accuracy to go down, it's in one's best interest to at least attempt to hit every note.

That wasn't my point. My point was that you can't call the system shit just because it doesn't rely 100% on accuracy. I was explaining how if it did rely 100% on accuracy then if you accidentally miss a single circle but FC the rest of the song you would end up getting a better score than someone who FC'd the entire song but didn't get above 98% which would be stupid.

I personally find a single miss with zero 100's much more impressive than a sloppy fc.

dunku wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

Accuracy is rhythm. Player B had worse rhythm, he just managed to keep his combo.
Player A had better rhythm, but missed 1 note, probably due to his cursor position, not his rhythm.

Well having said that I'd vote player B for the OP. Since the end result scores are fairly close, there's obviously a weighting towards the score result, but it's probably less than linear, as opposed to being multiplied like the combo-scoring. And this is only to help determine PP anyway, player A still has a better result. PP =/= score.

And really guys use your heads, no player is going to achieve 99% on every map and break their combo halfway evrytim. Unless they don't care, so

yeah it's a rhythm game, but there' other aspects of this specefic game that people should consider than just how on beat you are. That way. imo, you can judge performance better.

You need to think about it, what is accuracy really? it's the time you simultaneous tap your keyboard/tablet at the moment of the beat in correct response, depending on how late or early you are, you get either 50/100/300

but then there's a game called Osu, that makes you apply youself to do extreme jumps, and super fast tapping(that acquires inhuman skills imo) see Renard/Cookiezi/white wolf

my point is, accuracy isn't all that, you still have to do those crazy jumps with speed to stay on rhythm in order to get good accuracy. its like cause and effect, and i think that's more important than accuracy. but in all fairness the more perfect you do those said things, the more score you should get

peppy actually has it set up right, cause i know i can beat a person by comboingmore wit 88 acc than a person who had 58 combo with 94%

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You're are just mentioning general patterns (jumps and stream), when the current topic is accuracy vs combo.

I know some people value being able to combo a song, and I honestly wouldn't mind a small bonus points for racking up combos, but osu takes combo-scoring to a whole new level by making score bonuses grow exponentially as your combo grows. When I play mp and the host chooses score as the win condition, if I'm the first person to lose my combo, often I'll just stop playing and quit because it's not even worth finishing the song if I can't catch up even if I SS the rest of the song.

And as long as the win condition is on "score", I refuse to join any osu-related tournament. In tournaments I play in (such as Flash Flash Revolution or StepMania tourneys) scoring is always based off a raw-based scoring system where each judgement (perfect/good/average/miss or in osu's case: 300/100/50/x) is given a weight that determines your score.

Another example to leave off on:

Player A gets a miss in the middle of the song and gets 0 100's and 50's
Player B get a miss 2/3rds into the song and gets 0 100's and 0 50's

We all know that Player B will get more points because of combo-scoring. However, can we both agree that both player A and player B are at around the same skill level? I know the game is combo-based when it comes to scores on maps, so I'll just have to live with it, but I'm trying to get back to the topic of pp and I would think player A and player B should get similiar amounts of pp for said song, I wouldn't object against player B getting a slightly higher amount as a small combo bonus though.

OH MY GOD.. my point is to even pull off a decent combo you need to do those jumps and streams(if you're playing on insane/hard)

wich judges your performance, if you can't do it, you suck, basically, just because you can stay on beat to a song half of this community dosen't even know the lyrics to, dosen't mean you're the best/superior.

as for being on rhytmn good for you, there's other aspecs of this game more people enjoy than that, and poeple should learn to deal with the mechanics peppy implemented to showcase the best. just saying, system isn't perfect, and noby is perfect(cept cookiezi/Renard, just have fun :/

-And if you want to pull off a score with decent accuracy, you need to do those jumps and streams
-If you don't know the lyrics to a song, that's why you play it over and over again until you at least have the rhythm of the lyrics down. You can't always expect to do well on sightread scores.
-It's a rhythm game, I play the game because I like the feel of playing in rhythm with the song, that's what makes it fun to me.
-It's already been said that accuracy plays a role in the pp rankings so I don't even know why I'm arguing any of this.

what if you just pull off a fc, with okay acc, like around 88% does that mean more skill than a person with a 134 combo with 92% acc?

also, it maybe a rythmn game, but most people just farm for score, trust me, nobody but like a few like all the songs on this game.

I even retried songs a hundred times just fc it. ESPECIALLY NOW THAT PP IS THE NEW SHIT I GOTTA GET A GOOD RANK TO PROVE MY WORTH

I'm done arguing already, I'll just deal with osu's combo-scoring mega-fetish for now, whatever.

EDIT: I know this will probably bring some hate towards me, something I was hoping to avoid since joining this community, it's just I've never understood rhythm game's huge obsession with flawed-combo-based scoring systems, sometimes I wonder why I even bother. I guess it's because I find rhythm games (including this one) fun to play if I'm not really thinking too much about the score. I hope you guys understand, I'm usually a nice guy, it's just these type of things that erk me. :/

dunku wrote:

OH MY GOD.. my point is to even pull off a decent combo you need to do those jumps and streams(if you're playing on insane/hard)

wich judges your performance, if you can't do it, you suck, basically, just because you can stay on beat to a song half of this community dosen't even know the lyrics to, dosen't mean you're the best/superior.

as for being on rhytmn good for you, there's other aspecs of this game more people enjoy than that, and poeple should learn to deal with the mechanics peppy implemented to showcase the best. just saying, system isn't perfect, and noby is perfect(cept cookiezi/Renard, just have fun :/

I definitely see your point, and it is true that being able to execute the mechanics of the game properly is very important, but combos are multipliers, and thus they carry far more weight than accuracy, as reuben2011 pointed out. If there were a smaller bonus, then maybe it would be reasonable, but this game seems to believe that mechanics are far more important than accuracy, despite accuracy already being affected by inability to properly execute mechanics. You simply will not be accurate without good mechanics.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. I like this discussion. XD Personally, I've already adjusted to the current system, so it makes little difference to me if it is changed. We probably all feel that way. However, in the vein of the original topic, it'd be nice if we knew how the PP system was weighing things, so we could begin to try to play better by those guidelines. We shouldn't make the mistake of confusing improvement by playing by the rules of the system with farming by exploiting those same rules. As Plato said, even the fastest runner can lose a race by running in the wrong direction. We need to know what direction to run in, if our fastest runners are going to shine through in this system.

IMO player A who FC's map with 96% and player B who gets random slider break but has 99%, then player A>B, because if player B is really better and doesn't like that player A gets more pp with lower accuracy, then player B should just play the map again and FC it with 99%..

Still this is a score-based game, not accuracy, so yeah score based ranking system is the obvious way to go since top scores use scores instead of accuracy.

dunku wrote:

what if you just pull off a fc, with okay acc, like around 88% does that mean more skill than a person with a 134 combo with 92% acc?

also, it maybe a rythmn game, but most people just farm for score, trust me, nobody but like a few like all the songs on this game.

I even retried songs a hundred times just fc it. ESPECIALLY NOW THAT PP IS THE NEW SHIT I GOTTA GET A GOOD RANK TO PROVE MY WORTH

tbh, 88% is horrible.

PP are very well implemented imo. It takes so many factors into account such as song popularity, acc, rank on said song, mods, etc etc.
Just take a minute to think of a mathematical way to implement that. You will get various multiplying factors which will vary over time (like with song popularity). What i want you to see is that this PP formula is no simple thing to make and if you see it objectively it's a work of art.

I play taiko, I don't even know why I'm here.

Everything's fine in taikoland. We all love the new pp system
(Well, most of us.)

I have a question too.

Why does my PP decrease by 1 per day regardless of what I do?

mochi wrote:

I have a question too.

Why does my PP decrease by 1 per day regardless of what I do?

mine decreased by 4 in one day

kriers wrote:

mochi wrote:

I have a question too.

Why does my PP decrease by 1 per day regardless of what I do?

mine decreased by 4 in one day

I bet it's still being tweaked.

Didn't do any ranks on Wednesday / Thursday this week and my pp increased and decreased by a bit though.

notmainstreamiers

pp suffers exponential decay. (I think it's something along the lines of "a score set a year ago is only worth half the pp it is if you set it right now")

­­

Defacer wrote:

And NOW TO SPEAK THE DAMN TRUTH - On insane maps, it's almost IMPOSSIBRU to follow any rhythm, all I look for is the approach circle, just can't find rhythm...

Absolute "truth" and personal experience are not equal.
If you cannot find the rhythm of a song, then that's something that you personally need to improve, not an absolute truth for everyone who plays this game.

As for combo versus accuracy, you need to FC to get top scores anyway, so it's moot. SS'ing a map is much, much more difficult than FC'ing - It's a fairly simple matter to sightread FC something, but SS'ing will often take multiple tries.

Defacer wrote:

I also wonder how do you make 300s on high bpm streams?You follow the rhythm?

Yes.

­

Well, you can consider my response to be in response to your entire post, but I was focusing specifically on that particular part, which seemed to be the essence of your argument.

­

As much as it might look like someone's beating on your post, it doesn't appear that way to everyone else. Everyone started somewhere so your frustration is understood. I still can't feel the rhythm on songs 200+ bpm, but I have been gradually improving as well, and you will too.
Daru looked pretty polite to me, and his use of english was fairly neutral.

And this topic will carry on going in circles so long as people keep creating new examples and only considering "accuracy" and "combo." You will never find the answer you seek. Fact is they're both important, you can't say one is more important, because the only thing that determines that... is the map.

­

Since we're on the topic anyways, how much is accuracy considered in the PP calculation when played with hardrock..? because OD10 is like, play near perfect or goodbye accuracy.

mochi wrote:

Since we're on the topic anyways, how much is accuracy considered in the PP calculation when played with hardrock..? because OD10 is like, play near perfect or goodbye accuracy.

judging on how most hhr players get pp points like mad...

kriers wrote:

mochi wrote:

Since we're on the topic anyways, how much is accuracy considered in the PP calculation when played with hardrock..? because OD10 is like, play near perfect or goodbye accuracy.

judging on how most hhr players get pp points like mad...

I have to say that I HD HR'd a song yesterday, and I got my rank up by 80-100 places, or so, so it does seem like HR is worth a good bit, since just HD wasn't getting me spectacular results. I previously "decayed" something like 100 places before that, though, so I can't really tell when it's me getting and losing points or the system being tweaked anymore.

kriers wrote:

mochi wrote:

Since we're on the topic anyways, how much is accuracy considered in the PP calculation when played with hardrock..? because OD10 is like, play near perfect or goodbye accuracy.

judging on how most hhr players get pp points like mad...

I experimented around in the last days. I got the most PP out of purely farming HD 99.XX ranks.
Two 98% HD HR top6 ranks on popular maps (MATRYOSHKA & Couple Dance) didn't actually earn me a lot yesterday.

You have different ways to play a map, you can mostly try to follow rhythm ( mapping and modding help, but you'll be slow, slow, slow ) or try perfect your reflexes. If you actually follow Rhythm, it will be easier to play mod like Hidden, if you perfect your reflexes, you will have easier time playing with DT. HD need Reflexes and Rhythm-reading, FL is more than anything else based on memory.
But yeah, FCing maps needs some luck ( no luck=random causes to lose the Combo, like the pen slipping out or so ).so yeah...

high accuracy should be weighted more, though high combo-mantaining ability shouldn't be weighted less.

Tom94 wrote:

I experimented around in the last days. I got the most PP out of purely farming HD 99.XX ranks.
Two 98% HD HR top6 ranks on popular maps (MATRYOSHKA & Couple Dance) didn't actually earn me a lot yesterday.

Remember peppy doesn't even play the game so yeah he has no clue about what's hard and what's not.