Why does the artist have to be a 'real' singer? Vocaloids are a virtual entity. I'd say that constitutes as being a singer.
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[Rule] Showing composer into artist for VOCALOID songs
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I just want to point out, why "Artist" is the wrong definition for the Maker of Vocaloid Songs:
Definiton of Artist:
Definition of Musician:
Of course, for now, you can nagging me, because Musician would be as Artist correct too, but let's continue this:
Definition of Singer:
Definiton of Source:
It's not just that what I don't like on the new Rule. They are many songs where the creator is not active anymore and could change them for holding the new rule. And how already some/many people mentioned: The names are hard to find. For people with a high interest of the creators of the Vocaloid Songs, it won't be too hard at all to search, but things like HujuniseikouyuuP or Genjitsutouhi-P are totally retarded to set as Artist.
Some more things why I don't agree with this:
This is all what I can say to this. Of course, the Creator of all the vocaloid songs should not get ignored or forgotten, but it's not disrespectful, if you set them as Source. I mean, technically you can call the Source as Creator. Otherwise, Source should have to be Vocaloid, because the creator used this to creator the songs.
Definiton of Artist:
a person who works in one of the performing arts, as an actor, musician, or singer; a public performer: a mime artist; an artist of the dance.Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/artist
Definition of Musician:
(Music, other) a person who plays or composes music, esp as a professionSource: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Musical+artist
Of course, for now, you can nagging me, because Musician would be as Artist correct too, but let's continue this:
Definition of Singer:
a person who sings, especially a trained or professional vocalist.Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/singer
Definiton of Source:
One that causes, creates, or initiates; a maker.Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/source
a person, group, etc., that creates, issues, or originates something
It's not just that what I don't like on the new Rule. They are many songs where the creator is not active anymore and could change them for holding the new rule. And how already some/many people mentioned: The names are hard to find. For people with a high interest of the creators of the Vocaloid Songs, it won't be too hard at all to search, but things like HujuniseikouyuuP or Genjitsutouhi-P are totally retarded to set as Artist.
Some more things why I don't agree with this:
darkmiz wrote:
We should also have respect for the illustrators/PV makers/Audio mastering engineers of these songs.arken1015 wrote:
At lest, we should have respect for composers of these songs...
niconico lists these tags for this song: VOCALOID takamatt 456 かごめP GUMI 鏡音レン
I think all should be added in osu! tag information.
This is all what I can say to this. Of course, the Creator of all the vocaloid songs should not get ignored or forgotten, but it's not disrespectful, if you set them as Source. I mean, technically you can call the Source as Creator. Otherwise, Source should have to be Vocaloid, because the creator used this to creator the songs.
which is stupid, because nobody on the whole wide world considers the creator as the artist.Sakura wrote:
Vocaloid is an instrument created by the program Vocaloid (or is it Vocaloid 2?), There's no real singer in the song, so like instrumental songs, you use the composer as an artist.Sathron wrote:
What a silly change... Put the creator either in the tags or the source! It's the vocaloid that sings it after all, right?...
I don't think that you should consider Vocaloid as an instrument, it's a voice, and as such the program itself is much more of an artist than in normal synthesizers.
also, the songlisting will get messed up. you have one composer, but 5 different vocaloid, while you searched for example for all miku songs
this whole rule is just confusing, and complicated. it really should be the other way around, since most of us know the vocaloids, but not the composers.
If Vocaloid are instruments, why the genre isn't Instrumental? There are "no singers", so instead "Pop" or "Novelty" the genre would be instrumental, isn't it?Sakura wrote:
Vocaloid is an instrument created by the program Vocaloid (or is it Vocaloid 2?), There's no real singer in the song, so like instrumental songs, you use the composer as an artist.
A person who doesn't know Vocaloid would never think that is a program, he will just think it is a singer.
That wouldn't bother me if that was just for the informations of the maps, but that highly reduce the maps readability.
If this rule is not about CRYPTON's copyright issues, it just won't make sense. I want to make clear of this, because vocaloid Characters are known as singers not softwares, you should know this. If not, there's thousands of examples on the internet to get you those information. And it will be a stupid change if this is the only reason to create such a rule.Sakura wrote:
Vocaloid is an instrument created by the program Vocaloid (or is it Vocaloid 2?), There's no real singer in the song, so like instrumental songs, you use the composer as an artist.Sathron wrote:
What a silly change... Put the creator either in the tags or the source! It's the vocaloid that sings it after all, right?...
@NatsumeRin: it is about what peppy mentioned, im just pointing out reasons why i disagreed with it being an artist.
@Stefan: Then pray tell what is the correct artist of instrumnetal songs, like videogame music, like for example, Koji Kondo, Nobuo Uematsu or Yoko Shikomura.
Also osu!'s definition of source is not exactly the same as wikipedia, Source is "The Videogame/Movie/Stuff that the song comes from that made it famous" when the song by itself is already famous by itself, there's no source despite if it was used in a movie or videogame or something.
@Stefan: Then pray tell what is the correct artist of instrumnetal songs, like videogame music, like for example, Koji Kondo, Nobuo Uematsu or Yoko Shikomura.
Also osu!'s definition of source is not exactly the same as wikipedia, Source is "The Videogame/Movie/Stuff that the song comes from that made it famous" when the song by itself is already famous by itself, there's no source despite if it was used in a movie or videogame or something.
Sakura wrote:
@NatsumeRin: it is about what peppy mentioned
Essentially, if you submit a map with a vocaloid as the artist and you're hit with a claim by the owners/whoever, it is your fault. Not seeing why ppy mentioned licensing.ToS wrote:
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I haven't read this or anything, and I have no idea what people say and whatever, but I'm just throwing out what I would prefer:
Someartist feat. Somevocaloid - somesongtitle
Vocaloids are kind of a special case, and it's a bit between a singer and an instrument, so it's hard to really say if it should be included as an artist or not, but hey, this gives me the info I want to know when I see a song, so it's practical, yeah \o/
Someartist feat. Somevocaloid - somesongtitle
Vocaloids are kind of a special case, and it's a bit between a singer and an instrument, so it's hard to really say if it should be included as an artist or not, but hey, this gives me the info I want to know when I see a song, so it's practical, yeah \o/
There is something confusing me now.... ._. what about this http://osu.ppy.sh/s/45278 which we should put in Artist Arranger or Composer?
this confusing me a bit ....
this confusing me a bit ....
Why bother with such licensing stuff? We people do appreciate and credit the creators by placing the composer's name in the Source, it's already visible enough to the ones curious of its creator. Let's say those people on youtube uploading vocaloid songs out of NND, I didn't even see one that tells about illegaly having the claim, so far. They give Vocaloid names, but also the creator and NND source, and they're fine for years.Tanzklaue wrote:
which is stupid, because nobody on the whole wide world considers the creator as the artist.Sakura wrote:
Vocaloid is an instrument created by the program Vocaloid (or is it Vocaloid 2?), There's no real singer in the song, so like instrumental songs, you use the composer as an artist.
I don't think that you should consider Vocaloid as an instrument, it's a voice, and as such the program itself is much more of an artist than in normal synthesizers.
also, the songlisting will get messed up. you have one composer, but 5 different vocaloid, while you searched for example for all miku songs
this whole rule is just confusing, and complicated. it really should be the other way around, since most of us know the vocaloids, but not the composers.
So let's just go back, most people searched out and know much more with the vocaloid singer instead of composer. We shouldn't have to worry about licensing since this isn't a paid commercial game, it's a community driven F2P game! Why bother? If that licensing issue really happens to everyone, then nobody in the world would have said vocaloid singer's name to all who helped sharing a vocaloid song to people all around the world, it feels like saying a vocaloid singer is forbidden to the community if it really happens, like that would it ever happen.
We on Osu! created beatmaps to make songs more repeatable and playful to us all. We don't claim the song itself, we instead would have helped the creator making the song more popular! It's a song creator's dream, after all, having someone being able to make his own song "playable" by making a beatmap of it!
It's just my opinion. So don't take it too seriously.
This rule serves no purpose in its current form but to make searching for vocaloids harder to do. If it's not composer feat. vocaloid then it's just annoying and more difficult to keep track of vocaloid songs. Even made up characters can be considered musical artists, because they are defined as a musical persona artist.
The composer isn't singing, the program is, and that program is the main engine behind whatever persona, vocaloid is singing. Hense featuring would be the appropriate term.
The composer isn't singing, the program is, and that program is the main engine behind whatever persona, vocaloid is singing. Hense featuring would be the appropriate term.
this is already finalized.
peppy wrote:
Please use tags to show vocaloid specifics.
Bad rule is bad. Finalized bad rule is still bad.
But hold on for a moment. Does this also count for UTAU characters? (like Kasane Teto, Fuuga Koto etc.)
this those fictional characters create the song?Dolphin wrote:
But hold on for a moment. Does this also count for UTAU characters? (like Kasane Teto, Fuuga Koto etc.)
why is who created the song constitute as being the artistOzzyOzrock wrote:
this those fictional characters create the song?Dolphin wrote:
But hold on for a moment. Does this also count for UTAU characters? (like Kasane Teto, Fuuga Koto etc.)
For those who said that tags is the best way for searching a map, please say me who is the Vocaloïd who sings that song : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/60096
.... nobody knows ? It's maybe because it's not written in the tags while if the Vocaloïd's name was at the artist's name, everybody could easily see it (besides, tags are not visible ingame).
And for those who said that is logical to put a singer's name as artist but not a Vocaloïd's name because it's "an instrument", it's well to know that human voice is considered as an instrument too. So why Lady Gaga is designated as the artist here : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/53592 ? If you had said that Vocaloïd software is an instrument, ok, this is one because it is use to create songs, but say that a voice is an instrument, hum ..... NO LOGIC !
If Vocaloïd singers are so much special to have a special rule only for them, isn't it possible to have a special field to write who is the Vocaloïd singing the song ? (or who is the singer ?) Because it's always too hard (impossible ?) to see if a map is sing by a Vocaloïd without hearing it, or know who is the Vocaloïd singing without checking the tags (when it's written in ...). And I say it again : that's not handy ! (Yeah I know, I'm boring, but that useless rule is boring too)
.... nobody knows ? It's maybe because it's not written in the tags while if the Vocaloïd's name was at the artist's name, everybody could easily see it (besides, tags are not visible ingame).
And for those who said that is logical to put a singer's name as artist but not a Vocaloïd's name because it's "an instrument", it's well to know that human voice is considered as an instrument too. So why Lady Gaga is designated as the artist here : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/53592 ? If you had said that Vocaloïd software is an instrument, ok, this is one because it is use to create songs, but say that a voice is an instrument, hum ..... NO LOGIC !
If Vocaloïd singers are so much special to have a special rule only for them, isn't it possible to have a special field to write who is the Vocaloïd singing the song ? (or who is the singer ?) Because it's always too hard (impossible ?) to see if a map is sing by a Vocaloïd without hearing it, or know who is the Vocaloïd singing without checking the tags (when it's written in ...). And I say it again : that's not handy ! (Yeah I know, I'm boring, but that useless rule is boring too)
I only learned of this just now, and I'm a bit baffled.
Vocaloids are credited as the artist of songs by pretty much everyone everywhere, because usually the singer of a song is, not the composer. That's how it was here too (at least until people started putting them into the Source field, which didn't make much sense).
They create singing voices and as such they are considered singers.
And I do not think "they are just programs not real" is a valid argument, because with Vocaloids being based on real voice samples on the one side and pop music often featuring heavily autotuned/edited recordings on the other side, the line between "real" and "artificial" can be pretty blurry these days.
So if this means we're not going to put the singer into the Artist field anymore, that leads us to...
If we're going to do this to Vocaloid songs, are we going to do this to 95% of all pop music too?
If not, it's going to be a completely confusing and inconsistent rule.
If yes, it will result in confusion too.
I really don't think this is a good idea.
If you are worried about legal issues or about composers not getting enough credit though, why not at least try to implement a clean solution and, for example, split the Artist field into Composer and Interpreter or something along these lines?
Vocaloids are credited as the artist of songs by pretty much everyone everywhere, because usually the singer of a song is, not the composer. That's how it was here too (at least until people started putting them into the Source field, which didn't make much sense).
They create singing voices and as such they are considered singers.
And I do not think "they are just programs not real" is a valid argument, because with Vocaloids being based on real voice samples on the one side and pop music often featuring heavily autotuned/edited recordings on the other side, the line between "real" and "artificial" can be pretty blurry these days.
So if this means we're not going to put the singer into the Artist field anymore, that leads us to...
This summarizes it pretty well.Natteke wrote:
Huh, well, Justin Bieber doesn't compose the song, but he's the artist. If you're gonna aply this to vocaloid songs, why not apply it to EVERY other song as well? 95% of the time singer is mentioned as ARTIST because it makes more sense.
If we're going to do this to Vocaloid songs, are we going to do this to 95% of all pop music too?
If not, it's going to be a completely confusing and inconsistent rule.
If yes, it will result in confusion too.
I really don't think this is a good idea.
If you are worried about legal issues or about composers not getting enough credit though, why not at least try to implement a clean solution and, for example, split the Artist field into Composer and Interpreter or something along these lines?
I guess I'll take it short and yep, Natteke's quote is a win.
I agree to Fireball; adding a Composer line into it, keeping the Artist as its usual singer, then we're all good. :3
The singer has to stand out more than its composer to me. The composer is 2nd in line.
I agree to Fireball; adding a Composer line into it, keeping the Artist as its usual singer, then we're all good. :3
The singer has to stand out more than its composer to me. The composer is 2nd in line.
First of all , I mean that the policy of osu ! of " not allow to use the name of a VOCALOID bank because it has copyrights , but if the rest of the material such as MP3 , artwork, etc" is cynical .
In what way can damage the facilitate the search for what is already illegal ? And I mean illegal MP3 downloads of authors in Japan are licensed or just the Intellectual Property.
Sure, come out with the excuse that we are out of jurisdiction or any kind of things trying to defend the indefensible.
Second , with respect to what is considered as Artist , the format is usually used VocaloP feat. Vocaloid -in-use , that is, for the person who buys the album will understand that (and of course , it depends of the artist) , however , back to the issue of the legality / ethics osu! , The common of users is presented as a not aware of these habits , so it is quite complex to understand . Hatsune Miku is clearly not an artist, but is relevant to mention that it is related to Vocaloid beyond an instrument , but rather is a multimedia phenomenon. (And please, osu! should not be an Itunes).
Finally , to help restore the "chaos " caused by this huge rule ( which by the way , I think it's stupid ) , the most logical solution is to put some space as "As made famous by" form, very popular in games like Guitar Hero.
I am a fan of Vocaloid since 2007 and am currently managing an artist 's coming to Chile ( Yuyoyuppe ) , also taking with permits to use the brand YAMAHA Vocaloid in this event. However, osu! lacks everything that can be called permission , so once and for all , do this as a rule HELP to mapper / user and not make it something more dispersed.
In what way can damage the facilitate the search for what is already illegal ? And I mean illegal MP3 downloads of authors in Japan are licensed or just the Intellectual Property.
Sure, come out with the excuse that we are out of jurisdiction or any kind of things trying to defend the indefensible.
Second , with respect to what is considered as Artist , the format is usually used VocaloP feat. Vocaloid -in-use , that is, for the person who buys the album will understand that (and of course , it depends of the artist) , however , back to the issue of the legality / ethics osu! , The common of users is presented as a not aware of these habits , so it is quite complex to understand . Hatsune Miku is clearly not an artist, but is relevant to mention that it is related to Vocaloid beyond an instrument , but rather is a multimedia phenomenon. (And please, osu! should not be an Itunes).
Finally , to help restore the "chaos " caused by this huge rule ( which by the way , I think it's stupid ) , the most logical solution is to put some space as "As made famous by" form, very popular in games like Guitar Hero.
I am a fan of Vocaloid since 2007 and am currently managing an artist 's coming to Chile ( Yuyoyuppe ) , also taking with permits to use the brand YAMAHA Vocaloid in this event. However, osu! lacks everything that can be called permission , so once and for all , do this as a rule HELP to mapper / user and not make it something more dispersed.
I still think that we should change this rule ~
This rule is really annoying when I have to search for my Vocaloid beatmap.
And anyways, I believe that nobody would sue osu! as we're just a community based little game and not worth sueing.
There's really no true need to force anybody to use composer's nameas artist.
Moreover, this is not a seriour breach anyway. If you were concerned about laws and stuff you might need to ban people from stripping videos, which is impractical as everyone strips them from youtube.
I think people are overly concerned about the legislation problem, which isn't really an issue as osu! has never been sued.
This rule is really annoying when I have to search for my Vocaloid beatmap.
And anyways, I believe that nobody would sue osu! as we're just a community based little game and not worth sueing.
There's really no true need to force anybody to use composer's nameas artist.
Moreover, this is not a seriour breach anyway. If you were concerned about laws and stuff you might need to ban people from stripping videos, which is impractical as everyone strips them from youtube.
I think people are overly concerned about the legislation problem, which isn't really an issue as osu! has never been sued.